Another Trump thread!

[Valjean]

Almost all threads are to tell us how bad trump is. It’s a sickness with them.

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bandylee.com

 

[Valjean]

Trump has already put heavy tariffs on Its European Allies and on the UK. these are not small matters.
He has also prevented Europe trading hitec goods and services with China. On the pretext of security, when in realty it is commercial protectionism, too shore up failing American industries.
No security issues have ever been shown to exist.

8 charts that explain the Biden, Trump economies

Get ready: In the 2024 presidential race, the candidates will talk about the economy. A lot. We know because it’s alread

www.politifact.com

 

[Valjean]

Why is relating to the middle and working class seen as "despotic"??? I mean, Democrats no longer care about them, obviously.

It's not the relationship. It's the undermining of democracy and arrogation of power that's despotic.

It's true, the Party of the People abandoned the people to seek its fortune with the technical class, leaving the working and much of the middle class flapping in the wind. Their grievances are real, but they've misidentified their oppressors -- with the eager assistance of the Party of Business.

 

[Copernicus]

MSM is not legit news

This is something strongly promoted by the Republicans that you have bought into. "You can't trust the MSM - it's lefty propaganda - follow the real news on the following recommended platforms: ...."

But it does help to explain why social media have become so powerful. People are easily able to manipulate the sources of information that they are exposed to. Attacking the press is an old tactic for wannabe dictators, and Trump's demagoguery sounds very similar to the kind of paranoia spread around in Europe by autocrats like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and Franco. It's all about blaming scapegoats for all our problems, especially economic ones, and attacking the press for hiding the facts from the public. Trump did not invent the playbook, but he sure knows how to play it. Those who will vote for him don't really listen to him anymore. They are tuned out and will cast their votes accordingly. They can limit and tailor their sources of information to confirm all their biases.

 

[Secret Chief]

Hard not to confirm Godwin...

- Donald Trump's ex-wife once said Trump kept a book of Hitler's speeches by his bed

 

[Twilight Hue]

Orange man bad!

I said the thing. Give me frubals?

Seriously though, 14/20 of the threads in the first page of North American Politics sub forum are specifically about TRUMP.

Is there really nothing else to talk about in the sphere of North American politics? Like, at all? Genuine question.

Trump dominates the conversation. I’m sure he is glad about that.

I don’t have to participate in Trump threads, true. But they take up a lot of space ;-;

All likely from the same few people.

 

[an anarchist]

Interesting point of view. Explain?

Democracy is (in my view) tyranny by the majority. But before I go further -

And why are you assuming democracy?

Can you explain a bit more what you mean here? This leaves me a bit confused.

They thought the German chancellorship and Italian prime and interior ministries were controllable figurehead positions back in the early 20th century, as well....

fair point.

I believe Trump is a fascist, sure. I am interested in why the other side is not authoritarian fascists as well. I’m interested in why people think Kamala Harris isn’t authoritarian as well (or why any government is capable of being not authoritarian to a fault).

I guess my point of the OP is that all the politicians want to wrongly control our lives and liberty. Trump is blatant perhaps, but I see the other politicians as simply denying their own authoritarianism.

 

[crossfire]

Like Trump or not, he has turned American politics on its head.

He's brought out the worst in us. Now we just have to recognize it for what it is and make the needed changes within ourselves.

 

[Stevicus]

Democracy is (in my view) tyranny by the majority. But before I go further -

Can you explain a bit more what you mean here? This leaves me a bit confused.

fair point.

I believe Trump is a fascist, sure. I am interested in why the other side is not authoritarian fascists as well. I’m interested in why people think Kamala Harris isn’t authoritarian as well (or why any government is capable of being not authoritarian to a fault).

I guess my point of the OP is that all the politicians want to wrongly control our lives and liberty. Trump is blatant perhaps, but I see the other politicians as simply denying their own authoritarianism.

I've often wondered about the same thing. I have found myself in discussions with people where we basically agree on most of the main points and our stances on various issues, but the discussion instantly goes downhill when I point out flaws of the Democrats or when I don't acknowledge that "Trump is the worst thing in the world" or rhetoric along those lines.

For some people, it's not enough to simply agree on a rational basis, as they insist that I feel just as angry and upset about Trump as they do. That's what I've found so ludicrous about many of these discussions.

 

[Pogo]

Trump has already put heavy tariffs on Its European Allies and on the UK. these are not small matters.
He has also prevented Europe trading hitec goods and services with China. On the pretext of security, when in realty it is commercial protectionism, too shore up failing American industries.
No security issues have ever been shown to exist.

The israeli pager trick is causing me to agree more with those who see danger in Chinese communications infrastructure.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The israeli pager trick is causing me to agree more with those who see danger in Chinese communications infrastructure.

The Chinese had nothing to do with the Israelis putting explosives in pagers.
You are being frightened by" what iffs."
There is nothing more contagious than paranoia.
We know the USA has back doors in chips designed by American companies.
While it has never been shown that China has ever done the same.

We don't know but suspect that the UK has access to most phones.

Only Israel has coupled access with explosives.and then only on a special limited order.
Had anyone of those phones need a new battery it would have been discovered.

 

[Valjean]

Democracy is (in my view) tyranny by the majority. But before I go further -

Potentially, yes, which is why safeguards must be in place to curb abuse

Can you explain a bit more what you mean here? This leaves me a bit confused.

The US was not set up as a popular democracy. The aristocracy has always valued stability over progress and sought to reserve political power to themselves. They became panicked when the unstable progressivism of the '60s seemed to bear out Kirk's 1951 prediction in his classic The Conservative Mind that the rising middle class would soon have the leisure time to become political, and chaos would result.
By '71 the Republicans had essentially declared war on the 'leftist' middle classes and were actively seeking to undermine it and diminish the democratic power of the people. The Lewis Powell Memo: A Corporate Blueprint to Dominate Democracy By 1980 the Right had elected a president with the express purpose of reducing American democracy and the middle class. Since then the GOP's been undermining democracy at every turn. Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
So... is the US actually a democracy?

fair point.

I believe Trump is a fascist, sure. I am interested in why the other side is not authoritarian fascists as well. I’m interested in why people think Kamala Harris isn’t authoritarian as well (or why any government is capable of being not authoritarian to a fault).

I guess my point of the OP is that all the politicians want to wrongly control our lives and liberty. Trump is blatant perhaps, but I see the other politicians as simply denying their own authoritarianism.

The 'other side' does not exhibit the characteristics of fascism to nearly the extent the GOP currently does.

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003

ratical.org

The 12 Early Warning Signs of Fascism | Washington Monthly

Guess how many Trump has already checked off.

washingtonmonthly.com

 

[Pogo]

The Chinese had nothing to do with the Israelis putting explosives in pagers.
You are being frightened by" what iffs."
There is nothing more contagious than paranoia.
We know the USA has back doors in chips designed by American companies.
While it has never been shown that China has ever done the same.

We don't know but suspect that the UK has access to most phones.

Only Israel has coupled access with explosives.and then only on a special limited order.
Had anyone of those phones need a new battery it would have been discovered.

If we know the US has back doors, then it would be fairly safe to assume that there may well be back doors that the Chinese have put in their communications chips which could then be used to disrupt communications on a wide scale in the US if they wanted. That we can trust Nokia, etc. better may be questionable, It is a national security issue.
Most unfortunate as it makes cell and internet functions more expensive to build out.
But then Donald wants to put tariffs on everything anyhow.

Sorry, but Chinese behaviour in Hong Kong and elsewhere leads me not to trust them.

 

[Stevicus]

The Chinese had nothing to do with the Israelis putting explosives in pagers.
You are being frightened by" what iffs."
There is nothing more contagious than paranoia.
We know the USA has back doors in chips designed by American companies.
While it has never been shown that China has ever done the same.

We don't know but suspect that the UK has access to most phones.

Only Israel has coupled access with explosives.and then only on a special limited order.
Had anyone of those phones need a new battery it would have been discovered.

I think very little is known about that whole exploding pagers operation. I was reading in another forum that it could have been the Russians, since it was a Hungarian company which supplied the pagers. A Taiwanese company has also been mentioned. But it's all speculation at this point. I saw one suggestion where someone believed that Putin did it to distract world attention away from Ukraine and on Israel.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I think very little is known about that whole exploding pagers operation. I was reading in another forum that it could have been the Russians, since it was a Hungarian company which supplied the pagers. A Taiwanese company has also been mentioned. But it's all speculation at this point. I saw one suggestion where someone believed that Putin did it to distract world attention away from Ukraine and on Israel.

It is unlikely that the makers or original suppliers of the pagers. placed the explosives and implanted the software to detonate them. It is likely to have been done at a clandestine intermediate stage..without any knowledge of the OEM.

The same is likely to be true of any future such enterprise.

If you need security it is necessary to check the product before it is used. At the highest level this means checking every item, from what ever source.

This means also removing any existing firmware and software, and replacing it with known safe versions.

I do not believe that American equipment and software is in any way safer than Chinese equivalents.
As a Brit I would be more inclined to trust the Chinese, when it comes to national security. However I would expect all nationally critical electronic equipment to be checked and kept under review from any country.

At a personal level I rather doubt absolute security of our personal data is even possible.
But I am very happy with my Huawei phone. I also note that all my gadgetry is either Chinese made or contains Chinese parts, however it is badged.
A large majority of famous western brands are actually sourced in china or the far east.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I think very little is known about that whole exploding pagers operation. I was reading in another forum that it could have been the Russians, since it was a Hungarian company which supplied the pagers. A Taiwanese company has also been mentioned. But it's all speculation at this point. I saw one suggestion where someone believed that Putin did it to distract world attention away from Ukraine and on Israel.

That sounds like one of the more silly conspiracy theories, to redirect the Israeli guilt.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If we know the US has back doors, then it would be fairly safe to assume that there may well be back doors that the Chinese have put in their communications chips which could then be used to disrupt communications on a wide scale in the US if they wanted. That we can trust Nokia, etc. better may be questionable, It is a national security issue.
Most unfortunate as it makes cell and internet functions more expensive to build out.
But then Donald wants to put tariffs on everything anyhow.

Sorry, but Chinese behaviour in Hong Kong and elsewhere leads me not to trust them.

I thought that the Chinese acted as well as could be expected in line with the American inspired and funded riots. There were remarkably few injuries and the riots faded to nothing as soon as the funding ceased.

 

[Stevicus]

I came across an interesting article (6 months old) which makes some interesting points:

Letter from Washington: Why we hate Trump

The establishment hates Donald Trump and Trump voters hate the establishment. In this second instalment of ECFR’s Letters from Washington, Jeremy Shapiro explains why Europeans need to understand the dynamics that underpin this toxic relationship

ecfr.eu

Amongst the political elite on both sides of the Atlantic, Trump’s enduring appeal remains a great political puzzle of our age.

But for many people beyond the Washington beltway, even to ask that question is to misunderstand America. They see the fear and loathing that Trump generates in ‘establishment’ institutions from the New York Times to the US Senate as proof that he is onto something. Trump’s 91 criminal indictments, the innumerable civil suits against him, and the apocalyptic predictions that his re-election will destroy the Republic are in this view manifestations of a blind and unremitting hatred. The important question is therefore not why they vote for him, but why the political establishment hates him so much.

I've noticed this in the rhetoric, particularly among those who use the typical "those who are not with us are against us" tactics which have cropped up in alarming proportions lately.

Kevin Roberts, the president of the conservative Heritage Foundation think-tank in Washington, has a succinct answer to that question. “The political elite hates Donald Trump”, he told a group of evangelical radio broadcasters in Texas in February, “because he is a threat to them. He’s a threat to their agenda. He’s a threat to their privilege. He’s a threat to their vaulting messianic ambitions. And most of all, what disturbs them most, is he’s a threat to their power.”

This is an answer Europeans need to understand. Not just to grasp what is happening in the United States, but also to reflect on their political struggles with Trump-like political forces at home.

This would suggest that few people actually believe the stated reasons for opposition to Trump.

The article mentions that Trump isn't the first candidate to appeal to America's anti-elite sentiment:

Of course, the Republican party has long pushed an anti-elite message. To some extent every Republican president at least since Ronald Reagan, and many Democrats too, have run as Washington outsiders. Nepo-baby George W Bush – the ultimate insider – even managed to pull off this trick in his 2000 election campaign.

Nixon also used to rail against what he called the "Eastern Establishment."

But they rarely governed that way. The first Trump administration’s main failure was, in the view of Roberts and many other Trump supporters, to believe that you could make a revolution using the same old elites. For them, Trump’s conservative policies were too often stymied by the entrenched bureaucracy of the administrative state, the deep liberal bias of the United States’ media and cultural institutions, and even by the perfidy of Trump’s own establishment political appointees.

The article suggests that there could be a massive purge of the bureaucracy if Trump is elected:

A new term would suffer the same fate unless it first destroyed that elite and replaced it with those who do not secretly hate Trump. Heritage is thus also assembling a database of tens of thousands of potential government appointees who will, Roberts hopes, finally break the power of the elites who have ruled Washington for so long. “President Trump is going to take power away from the elites,” Roberts told the assembled power brokers in Davos this January, “many people in this room are part of the problem.”

“Mandate for Leadership” is thus also a blueprint for gutting the administrative state, “the two million unelected, unaccountable career Federal bureaucrats … who”, according to Roberts, “have illegally and unconstitutionally resisted conservative reform for generations.” And the battle will be fought well beyond the federal government. A new Trump administration will “directly attack the woke-industrial complex. All the left-wing elites who derive their power, their prestige, their wealth [from] manipulating the federal budget.”

The article also mentions something I recognized right off the bat:

We love him because you hate him​

So, maybe Trump voters don’t love him as much as they dislike the elites. An important part of Trump’s appeal is clearly the hatred he generates among America’s establishment, both Republican and Democrat. Every indictment, every attack by never-Trump Republicans or liberal cultural elites, only serves to strengthen the conviction of his voters that Trump is doing something right.

There's a great deal of truth to this. The more people have obsessed over Trump, the more his supporters are convinced he's right. That's what so many people seem to miss.

Trump voters participating in focus groups often reveal that they see his flaws clearly, but as the Republican pollster Sarah Longwell notes, “hatred of the political elites is just such a common theme.”

Perhaps a better strategy for the Democrats would have been to echo the public's hatred of the elite and run on the platform that "We will drain the swamp better than Trump can!"

All of this means it is probably time for liberal Europeans to stop asking how Americans can vote for Trump and instead ask themselves why Trump voters revel so much in elite hatred.

That's an excellent suggestion. I wonder why I didn't think of it and post it here?

Personally, I find it bit mystifying the other way. All of my life, I have seen some rather sharp and severe criticisms of the US government, political system, big business - from both sides of the Atlantic and all up and down the political spectrum. While "hatred" may be too strong a term to use, I've discerned a somewhat negative disposition towards the ways and means of our government and the other mechanisms which rule and influence the country. Why would this be so difficult for people to recognize and understand?