Another view from the outside.

[shytot]

I would like to ask a question, I do not expect it to be answered.

How many Muslims would prefer not to be Muslims?
I ask this question because I have watched newsreel footage of
demonstrations from Muslim countries, and if you look at some of the
faces in the crowd, some of the people there give the impression they
would really like not to be there, but are just going along with the rest,
you, as Muslims will know how you feel deep down, and I can not imagine
what it must be like to be afraid to let others know how you really feel,
the Germans in the last war who disagreed with the Nazi's would know
what it is like, afraid to speak out against such an overwhelming force.
I could be completely wrong in my assumtion, but it is just not possible
for every Muslim in the world to want to remain a Muslim, the odds are
against it.

 

[TashaN]

I would like to ask a question, I do not expect it to be answered.

How many Muslims would prefer not to be Muslims?
I ask this question because I have watched newsreel footage of
demonstrations from Muslim countries, and if you look at some of the
faces in the crowd, some of the people there give the impression they
would really like not to be there, but are just going along with the rest,
you, as Muslims will know how you feel deep down, and I can not imagine
what it must be like to be afraid to let others know how you really feel,
the Germans in the last war who disagreed with the Nazi's would know
what it is like, afraid to speak out against such an overwhelming force.
I could be completely wrong in my assumtion, but it is just not possible
for every Muslim in the world to want to remain a Muslim, the odds are
against it.

Do you really think that once a person doesn't like what is happening now so he want to runaway from the religion?

This is totally obvious to us "Muslims" that our dogma is totally different than what a group of people might react toward any event. Being a Muslim has no relationship with the things around us because our first purpose is to worship Allah as he commanded us to do so in the hope to enter to heaven after we die and leave this temporary life.

 

[Nehustan]

The foundation of faith for a Muslim is called Tawheed. This is not a belief in something that can be percieved. Let me play a semantic trick, an atheists says I believe in nothing, there is nothing that exists beyond what I can see and quantify (or future generations will be able to quantify). The Muslim belives something similar but not the same. He says that which I believe in I cannot see, it is infinite and absolute beyond the creation, world, heavens, beyond my comprehension and all comprehension for as long as the creation exists. Neither I nor future generations will be able to quantify this absolute and infinite, thus by the way we define things by our ability to percive them, God is beyond quantification, thus he is not a thing, hence NO THING. So the atheist says there is nothing, wheareas the Muslim says I believe in No Thing!!!!!

Now you may be right that there are people who fall under the general category 'muslim' who do not comprehend Tawheed, and would thus like to leave Islam, however from a theological perspective if they do not grasp Tawheed (i.e. the unknowable nature of the Infinite and Absolute) then they were not muslim and thus not in Islam, thus cannot leave something they are not a part of. One cannot deny something that is beyond one's comprehension, one can think one comprehends it, and deny one's own comprehension, however these are not the same actions.

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Your presumption is that people are not fully aware, or do not full accept, their faith. I was raised Catholic, then became atheist, then became Muslim. I choose to recognize God as the sole creator of and provider for life.

So deep down, I want to be here. I choose a relationship with God.

You're correct, it's not possible for every Muslim in the world to want to remain Muslim, just as it's not possible for every Christian in the world to remain Christian, nor for every atheist in the world to remain atheist.

I would like to ask a question, I do not expect it to be answered.

How many Muslims would prefer not to be Muslims?
I ask this question because I have watched newsreel footage of
demonstrations from Muslim countries, and if you look at some of the
faces in the crowd, some of the people there give the impression they
would really like not to be there, but are just going along with the rest,
you, as Muslims will know how you feel deep down, and I can not imagine
what it must be like to be afraid to let others know how you really feel,
the Germans in the last war who disagreed with the Nazi's would know
what it is like, afraid to speak out against such an overwhelming force.
I could be completely wrong in my assumtion, but it is just not possible
for every Muslim in the world to want to remain a Muslim, the odds are
against it.

 

[Peace]

Do you really think that once a person doesn't like what is happening now so he want to runaway from the religion?

This is totally obvious to us "Muslims" that our dogma is totally different than what a group of people might react toward any event. Being a Muslim has no relationship with the things around us because our first purpose is to worship Allah as he commanded us to do so in the hope to enter to heaven after we die and leave this temporary life.

I totally agree with the Truth. Whatever happens in the world, and whatever accuses and insults Islam encounterd, encouters and will encounter, I will NEVER change my religion, for I am sure of Islam's Truth. Most of Muslims if not all know for sur that Islam is the final message from God to Human kind. I will never doubt my religion, and I am PROUD of being a Muslim, thanks be to God

Peace

 

[Light]

Muslims will never change their religion even if the world turns upside down because they are just sure of its authenticity and truth as they are sure of their names

Salam

 

[michel]

*************************Mod Post**************************
​

Please be aware of the rules regarding posting on Discuss Individual Religions only; which are as follows:-​

Discuss Individual Religions Forums Rules and Usage:

8.) Each Individual Religion forum is for that religion's education and fellowship for people who abide by that religion and for discussion within that religion.

9.) We will not tolerate any debate about a religion in its Individual Religion forum, NO OUTSIDE DEBATE OR VIEW POINTS ARE ALLOWED. This rule is strictly enforced. If you wish to debate a certain religion the proper place for that is in the Debates sections.

10.) Asking respectful questions of other religions is acceptable in their Individual Religion forum.

11.) Attacking other religions in these forum is not tolerated. These forums are for education of the Religion or system in the title of the forum and fellowship only, not discounting other religions.
​

​

 

[shytot]

If you believe in a faith then of coarse you will not want to change your faith,
but the way you are talking about Islam, makes it seem, once a Muslim always
a Muslim, wether they like it or not, it is out of their hands, they stay a Muslim
until they die, what about choice, surely a person has the right to choose how
they live their lives, Light says 'Muslims will never change their religion' how can
he speak for every Muslim???? unless he knows what happens if a Muslim changes
his mind, (surely even a Muslim is allowed to change his mind) or mabey he is not!!

What WOULD happen to someone who decided to stop being a Muslim??
(and please dont tell me NO Muslim ever would)

 

[Judgement Day]

If you believe in a faith then of coarse you will not want to change your faith,
but the way you are talking about Islam, makes it seem, once a Muslim always
a Muslim, wether they like it or not, it is out of their hands, they stay a Muslim
until they die, what about choice, surely a person has the right to choose how
they live their lives, Light says 'Muslims will never change their religion' how can
he speak for every Muslim???? unless he knows what happens if a Muslim changes
his mind, (surely even a Muslim is allowed to change his mind) or mabey he is not!!

What WOULD happen to someone who decided to stop being a Muslim??
(and please dont tell me NO Muslim ever would)

I think you just answered yourself :biglaugh:.

 

[Nehustan]

If you believe in a faith then of coarse you will not want to change your faith,
but the way you are talking about Islam, makes it seem, once a Muslim always
a Muslim, wether they like it or not, it is out of their hands, they stay a Muslim
until they die, what about choice, surely a person has the right to choose how
they live their lives, Light says 'Muslims will never change their religion' how can
he speak for every Muslim???? unless he knows what happens if a Muslim changes
his mind, (surely even a Muslim is allowed to change his mind) or mabey he is not!!

What WOULD happen to someone who decided to stop being a Muslim??
(and please dont tell me NO Muslim ever would)

Shytot, I think your questions are fair, and I for one do not take them as an affront to Islam, it is our duty to attempt to meet queries to the best of our ability. None of us here are scholars, but we will try our best.

I played the little semantic trick earlier to try and show you why Muslims who have grasped 'Tawheed' cannot recant their faith. As it is a belief in an absolute and infinite that is beyond our intellectual grasp it cannot be denied. Philisophically speaking one can only deny something when one understands it. As all Muslims will agree that none can ever understand Allah, it then becomes impossible to deny Allah. Of course there will be people who do not grasp this, and surely they will deny Allah, thinking they understand Him, or probably that he is just a figment of the human imagination. However this is not the Muslim perspective, a muslim knows that such knowledge is beyond him, and infact the knowledge of the infinite and absolute can only be known to that infinite and absolute. I suppose I would frame such wisdom from a hellenic and thus 'western' philosopher. Plato reports that Socrates said 'True wisdom is knowing you know nothing'. I think in light of my earlier sematic trick Socrates words can be considered with a certain irony.

In answer to what historically happened to people who recanted their 'faith' it really depended on the level of their knowledge and their intention. This state has a name in Islam, where apostacy is known as Murtad, the ultimate punishment for which was execution. This said however the ultimate sanction of the law is seldom meted out upon the guilty. If the person was a simple man who spoke to no one (if he didn't speak about it no one would know, but that's another argument) the punishment would have been simple, merciful, and with that persons general well being taken into consideration. If however the person was well educated and used heresy and apostacy as a method of sedition within the Islamic Nation (ummah) then after several warnings the maximum penalty would be effected, quite similar to treason and sedition laws in many contemporary nations.

I hope this answers your questions.

 

[shytot]

Thankyou Nehustan for at least trying to answer my question,
I am sure you can understand where I am coming from,
I have never in my life talked to a Muslim about religion,
and it is alien to me to even think about a religion
that takes over your life so completely, I am just blown away
to think a story (as I see it ) told to someone can have such
an effect on some ones life, 75% of British people do not believe
in a God, the other 25% are just left to believe whatever they want to believe,
then along came the Muslims, they not only believe, but they actually live it,
we were not prepared for this, we have always believed in freedom of speech,
which included, taking the Mickey out of a persons belief, because up until now
religion is a personal thing, if they were strong in their belief, it acted as a test of their faith,
and they were strengthened by a little ridicule, and felt better for it, but it seens
being a Muslim is more of a communal religion, and you must be seen to be a
good Muslim by other people, it is not enough to just be complete in yourself.

So I still do not understand, and I suppose I never will, not having been brought up
a Muslim.
Something puzzles me, do you feel lucky to have been chosen by fate to be brought
up a Muslim, after all you might have been brought up in one of a hundred religions.

 

[Judgement Day]

In answer to what historically happened to people who recanted their 'faith' it really depended on the level of their knowledge and their intention. This state has a name in Islam, where apostacy is known as Murtad, the ultimate punishment for which was execution. This said however the ultimate sanction of the law is seldom meted out upon the guilty. If the person was a simple man who spoke to no one (if he didn't speak about it no one would know, but that's another argument) the punishment would have been simple, merciful, and with that persons general well being taken into consideration. If however the person was well educated and used heresy and apostacy as a method of sedition within the Islamic Nation (ummah) then after several warnings the maximum penalty would be effected, quite similar to treason and sedition laws in many contemporary nations.

The only punishment for leaving Islam is the greatest sin from God which will not be forgiven. Islam doesnt execute people who stop being a Muslim.

 

[Nehustan]

Hey this isn't an Islamic source it's Wiki, but it was the first hit on google...

 

[Nehustan]

So I still do not understand, and I suppose I never will, not having been brought up
a Muslim.
Something puzzles me, do you feel lucky to have been chosen by fate to be brought
up a Muslim, after all you might have been brought up in one of a hundred religions.

Neither was I, I was raised as a High Church Anglican, which I subsequently recanted in writing to Lambeth Palace.

 

[Judgement Day]

Hey this isn't an Islamic source it's Wiki, but it was the first hit on google...

It is said that there is a fiqih that says that an apostate should be killed. Everything in Islam should be based on what the Quran says, while in the other paragraph if you read thoroughly, there is no verse in Quran that says about the execution of an apostate. It only says that Allah forbids it and it is the greatest sin among all other sins. Islam forbids the execution of an apostate because it is Allah's right to punish them like that. We, humans, dont have the right to punish for religion is our right to believe or not to believe.

Edit:

For Prophet Muhammad clearly states that Muslims are forbidden to change Islamic rules that has been set by Allah.

 

[flysky]

If you believe in a faith then of coarse you will not want to change your faith,
but the way you are talking about Islam, makes it seem, once a Muslim always
a Muslim, wether they like it or not, it is out of their hands, they stay a Muslim
until they die, what about choice, surely a person has the right to choose how
they live their lives, Light says 'Muslims will never change their religion' how can
he speak for every Muslim???? unless he knows what happens if a Muslim changes
his mind, (surely even a Muslim is allowed to change his mind) or mabey he is not!!

What WOULD happen to someone who decided to stop being a Muslim??
(and please dont tell me NO Muslim ever would)

Are u a missionary? Because you tend to ask the questions the same way as most Missionaries do. (that is to play with peoples' minds and confuse them, since missionaries can't find any faults in Holy Quran)

 

[Nehustan]

In answer to what historically happened to people who recanted their 'faith' it really depended on the level of their knowledge and their intention. This state has a name in Islam, where apostacy is known as Murtad, the ultimate punishment for which was execution. This said however the ultimate sanction of the law is seldom meted out upon the guilty. If the person was a simple man who spoke to no one (if he didn't speak about it no one would know, but that's another argument) the punishment would have been simple, merciful, and with that persons general well being taken into consideration. If however the person was well educated and used heresy and apostacy as a method of sedition within the Islamic Nation (ummah) then after several warnings the maximum penalty would be effected, quite similar to treason and sedition laws in many contemporary nations.

The only punishment for leaving Islam is the greatest sin from God which will not be forgiven. Islam doesnt execute people who stop being a Muslim.

Hey this isn't an Islamic source it's Wiki, but it was the first hit on google...

It is said that there is a fiqih that says that an apostate should be killed. Everything in Islam should be based on what the Quran says, while in the other paragraph if you read thoroughly, there is no verse in Quran that says about the execution of an apostate. It only says that Allah forbids it and it is the greatest sin among all other sins. Islam forbids the execution of an apostate because it is Allah's right to punish them like that. We, humans, dont have the right to punish for religion is our right to believe or not to believe.

Edit:

For Prophet Muhammad clearly states that Muslims are forbidden to change Islamic rules that has been set by Allah.

As you rightly point out it says 'there is' and if you look back I gave a very clear exposition of its occurence historically, emphasis on that word 'historically', hiding from history or apologising for it serves no purpose. Your opinion on its legality from a scholastic perspective is duely noted, and as the wiki article points out people have argued this perspective throughout Islamic history, however people also lost their heads, pretending it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't, and as I pointed out treason and sedition are treated in this way not only historically both within the Islamic world and without but also in the contemporary world.

I don't want an argument about this, but denial is not just a river in Aegypt....

As Salaam Alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakhatu.

 

[Judgement Day]

I am not hiding from history, even people from the Prophet's time has done mistakes. Hadiths also contains misdeeds that has been done by Prophet's companions, and then straighten out by the Prophet. What I'm trying to say here is to continue on your answer on shytot's question. You may have answered it historically, but you have not answered it on the other side of the coin. I really appreciate you trying to answer a question about a religion which you are not embracing yourself and which you dont have deep understanding about it. You have not answered the question based on what Islam teaches, rather than answering it by exposing ONLY the negative side of the history of Islam. If you cant answer a question balancely, I suggest that you let the Muslims answer it because your answer may mislead someone. But if you have a question, then we are more than happy to answer. Muslims dont hide their negative sides or bad history, thats why you can find such stories in the hadiths. Muslims here want people to know what Islam really is, not based on something they just heard from mouth to mouth: To straighten things up.

 

[Nehustan]

Do you know you are right I didn't make my prayers today, I managed some yesterday, but not today. So today you are right to tell me I'm not following Islam, yesterday you would have been less correct. If you look back you will see I said I was a High Church Anglican, which I subsequently recanted in writing to the head of my church having reverted to Islam (1993). I will swallow your accusation of not being Muslim either because you have inside information on my lack of piety which I will not deny, or because you presumed I was still a Christian. As to illustrating the 'negative' sides of Islam, I didn't notice that I had, pointing out the practical historic use of law derived from shariah sources (i.e. fatwah from Ulema, whether you agree with them or not) does not to my mind bring Islam into a bad light. The Islamic nation post the Prophet, whether that be under the rightly guided Caliphs, or subsequent ones employed methods to maintain its integrity. Law can be harsh, and thus should be meted with mercy, but please don't accuse me of things that were not my intention, the questioner asked a question, I gave an honest answer to the best of my ability, and my niyat was, Insha Allah, pure.

 

[Judgement Day]

Do you know you are right I didn't make my prayers today, I managed some yesterday, but not today. So today you are right to tell me I'm not following Islam, yesterday you would have been less correct. If you look back you will see I said I was a High Church Anglican, which I subsequently recanted in writing to the head of my church having reverted to Islam (1993). I will swallow your accusation of not being Muslim either because you have inside information on my lack of piety which I will not deny, or because you presumed I was still a Christian. As to illustrating the 'negative' sides of Islam, I didn't notice that I had, pointing out the practical historic use of law derived from shariah sources (i.e. fatwah from Ulema, whether you agree with them or not) does not to my mind bring Islam into a bad light. The Islamic nation post the Prophet, whether that be under the rightly guided Caliphs, or subsequent ones employed methods to maintain its integrity. Law can be harsh, and thus should be meted with mercy, but please don't accuse me of things that were not my intention, the questioner asked a question, I gave an honest answer to the best of my ability, and my niyat was, Insha Allah, pure.

Just to point out one thing: Islam is not the one that has the negative side, it is us, humans which made such faulty history(if you may read my post again) to go against Quran.

And I deeply apologize for charging you with such irreponsible manners. Maybe you need to put the word 'Islam' on your profile so people would know. Forgive me, brother?