Anti-Islamic Sentiment on RF

[Storm]

any criminal would use whatever fits to justify his action. IMO if justification was accepted by authorities then there is a big problem. other than that, people would use and abuse anything

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Granted, .lava, but it's not just the criminals. As Auto pointed out, it's also the clerics and the courts.

 

[xkatz]

Has RF always been so anti-Islamic?

I would NOT call RF, the forum itself, anti-Islam. I would say it is more or less the attitude and opinion of some of the members. RF isn't targeting muslims. Most of us just want to learn more about Islam and other beliefs as well. It is just that sometimes the Muslims and the anti-Islamic posters seem to turn threads into flamewars.

 

[.lava]

Granted, .lava, but it's not just the criminals. As Auto pointed out, it's also the clerics and the courts.

yes, i agree. that's what i mean by authority

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[Storm]

yes, i agree. that's what i mean by authority

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Oh, ok.

 

[Autodidact]

enlighten me with that darkness then...i would like to know who says that. who are those Muslim leaders?

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I can do better than that:

Three persons including a woman and a child were killed in the name of honour by a group of armed men in a village near the Sanjar Bhatti Police Station, Shahdadkot district on Tuesday.Two people, Abdul Rasheed Junejo and his 3-year-old son Rashid, were killed by a group of armed men led by Imam Bux Brohi.According to the police report, the accused also shot and killed Junejo’s wife.Police have arrested the accused, Imam Bux Brohi, and Abdullah Brohi for their involvement in the murders.Honour killing is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow family members, where the murderers and potentially the wider community believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community.

 

[Baydwin]

I can do better than that:

Three persons including a woman and a child were killed in the name of honour by a group of armed men in a village near the Sanjar Bhatti Police Station, Shahdadkot district on Tuesday.Two people, Abdul Rasheed Junejo and his 3-year-old son Rashid, were killed by a group of armed men led by Imam Bux Brohi.According to the police report, the accused also shot and killed Junejo’s wife.Police have arrested the accused, Imam Bux Brohi, and Abdullah Brohi for their involvement in the murders.Honour killing is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow family members, where the murderers and potentially the wider community believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community.

And yet the police have arrested them. Funny that in a society that supposedly supports honour killings?

 

[Autodidact]

I think you're being unfair here, you're taking an extremist position and extrapolating it to a whole culture. What you're doing is essentially the same as a foreigner taking the proclamations of Fred Phelps as the morality of the USA. The "leaders" saying it's acceptable to murder under sharia law are extremist nutters, the Muslim equivalent of Phelps. Granted they are more numerous, but that doesn't mean the majority of Muslims take them any more seriously than the majority of American Christians take Phelps and his Church seriously.

And I think .lava made a good point. In the West we have domestic violence, men killing their girlfriends and wives, beating their daughters for wearing clothes they don't approve of or for dating boys they don't like. In the West this violence and such murders aren't called honour killings, but the cause and results are the same.

I have to disagree. People who support Phelps position aren't in Congress. They're not judges.

What happens is, the entire village, family, etc. encourage or even shame the young men into committing these crimes. It's NOT a few extremisists; it's at a minimum 5000 women a year. In dozens of countries. Then the courts let them off. The legislature passes laws to permit it. It's a societal problem, not just a few crackpots. If it were, it wouldn't be such a serious problem.

In the west we have domestic violence. In Islamic countries they have domestic violence AND honor killings.

 

[Autodidact]

And yet the police have arrested them. Funny that in a society that supposedly supports honour killings?

Wait for the verdict and more importantly, the punishment. It's systematically reduced, often to a few months.

 

[Baydwin]

I have to disagree. People who support Phelps position aren't in Congress. They're not judges.

What happens is, the entire village, family, etc. encourage or even shame the young men into committing these crimes. It's NOT a few extremisists; it's at a minimum 5000 women a year. In dozens of countries. Then the courts let them off. The legislature passes laws to permit it. It's a societal problem, not just a few crackpots. If it were, it wouldn't be such a serious problem.

In the west we have domestic violence. In Islamic countries they have domestic violence AND honor killings.

I believe you're exaggerating. Can you provide evidence that such cases are the norm for any Islamic country?

 

[.lava]

I can do better than that:

Three persons including a woman and a child were killed in the name of honour by a group of armed men in a village near the Sanjar Bhatti Police Station, Shahdadkot district on Tuesday.Two people, Abdul Rasheed Junejo and his 3-year-old son Rashid, were killed by a group of armed men led by Imam Bux Brohi.According to the police report, the accused also shot and killed Junejo’s wife.Police have arrested the accused, Imam Bux Brohi, and Abdullah Brohi for their involvement in the murders.Honour killing is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow family members, where the murderers and potentially the wider community believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community.

i don't get it. this incident is an example, looks like honor killing but i don't know how it answers my question

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[.lava]

Wait for the verdict and more importantly, the punishment. It's systematically reduced, often to a few months.

where did this incident happen? are you saying it is illegal to kill someone but courts some how twist the law and set them free? btw, these people usually give dirty work to the youngest of the family. sometimes 14 year old boy kills his sister and when he is charged for murderer, he would not be judged as an adult

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[Autodidact]

I believe you're exaggerating. Can you provide evidence that such cases are the norm for any Islamic country?

The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000.[1]..."The report of the Special Rapporteur ... concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83), indicated that honour killings had been reported in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, the Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Yemen, and other Mediterranean and Persian Gulf countries, and that they had also taken place in western countries such as France, Germany and the United Kingdom, within migrant communities....A June 2008 Report by the Turkish Prime Ministry's Human Rights Directorate, says that in Istanbul alone, there is one honor killing every week; and reports over 1,000 during the last 5 years....UNICEF reported that in the Gaza strip and the West bank that "According to 1999 estimates, more than two-thirds of all murders were most likely 'honour' killings...As many as 133 women were killed in the Iraqi city of Basra alone in 2006—79 for violation of "Islamic teachings" and 47 for honor killings, according to IRIN, the news branch of the U.N.'s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.
[all from wiki]

“Most of the 5,000 honour killings reported to take place every year around the world do not make the news,...
“In the name of preserving family ‘honour,’ women and girls are shot, stoned, burned, buried alive, strangled, smothered and knifed to death with horrifying regularity.”
The UN human rights chief points out that the problem is exacerbated by the fact that in a number of countries’ domestic legal systems, including through discriminatory laws, still fully or partially exempt individuals guilty of honour killings from punishment. Perpetrators may even be treated with admiration and given special status within their communities.

from here.

As the world marks International Women's Day on Monday, a Human Rights Commission report in Pakistan has revealed some horrific statistics about women rights violations throughout the country.The report reveals that at least 9,670 women have been killed only in Punjab for honour killings and property disputes for the last five years.

here

"Hundreds, if not thousands, of women are murdered by their families each year in the name of family "honor." It's difficult to get precise numbers on the phenomenon of honor killing; the murders frequently go unreported, the perpetrators unpunished, and the concept of family honor justifies the act in the eyes of some societies."
Hillary Mayell reports from National Geographic

Two final facts in this brief overview of the honor-killing phenomenon: (1) Within their culture, the men who commit these murders are almost always considered innocent of criminal behavior; on the contrary, they are considered heroes. Even today, some Middle Eastern countries have yet to criminalize honor killings. But even where countries are beginning to do so, perpetrators almost always go free, without any sort of punishment, although on rare occasions they might get a lip-service prison sentence of a few months; (2) Of all Middle Eastern or Islamic countries, Pakistan leads the way in the number and ferocity of honor killings. One report cited more than a thousand such killings in 1998 and again in 1999 in just two provinces alone; another report claims there are more than a thousand a year in the entire country. The statistics may vary widely, but the crime's acceptability apparently does not.
from here

 

[Panda]

ah come on, no problem honor killings is a tribal issue. Eastern tribes have it. they don't value life of women and women can not say her opinion, she has to get married with whomever her father wants, in case she refuses she might get hurt, in case she runs away she might get killed...etc. men might get mad at their wives in case she would not give birth to a son. that kind of mentality. these are hardly about religion. they accept these tribal rules above law of God and above law of the nation. for example, i'd ever heard a father kills his daughter because she would not perform salaat. if it happened then it must be one in a million or something. this killings is either about what she wears or whom she dates.

it might be some kind of mixture of two. maybe it is better to say some pratices of Islam turned into tradition. it is little complicated. i mean, for example, there are many women who wear hijab but they don't perform salaats or they would not fast. but they wear hijab because it became tradition in society to wear headgear. even though wearing modest is command of God, their motivation is different than that

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Ahh I see thanks for that, I would probably say in general I would agree with that.

 

[Autodidact]

where did this incident happen? are you saying it is illegal to kill someone but courts some how twist the law and set them free? btw, these people usually give dirty work to the youngest of the family. sometimes 14 year old boy kills his sister and when he is charged for murderer, he would not be judged as an adult

Yes, exactly, as in Jordan where they know he will be released at age 18. He may not even want to do it; his family or village shames him into it. That's why I say it's not a few kooks, it's a problem of societal attitude. And the attitude is that woman is property of man. That attitude can be found in various countries, but is almost universal within Islam.

 

[Baydwin]

Auto, I appreciate the research and links, and I'm not saying honour killings don't happen or aren't a problem. But equally, we have a person on the forum who lives in an Islamic state who doesn't see honour killings as justifiable or the norm in her (sorry if you're not a her .lava) country. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

[.lava]

Yes, exactly, as in Jordan where they know he will be released at age 18. He may not even want to do it; his family or village shames him into it. That's why I say it's not a few kooks, it's a problem of societal attitude. And the attitude is that woman is property of man. That attitude can be found in various countries, but is almost universal within Islam.

i don't know if you do it on purpose but i admit you are quite talented. once more you saved yourself from hearing me saying "i completely agree with you". i applaud you for that

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[Autodidact]

Auto, I appreciate the research and links, and I'm not saying honour killings don't happen or aren't a problem. But equally, we have a person on the forum who lives in an Islamic state who doesn't see honour killings as justifiable or the norm in her (sorry if you're not a her .lava) country. Doesn't that tell you something?

Yes, it tells me that .lava, and millions of other Muslims, disapprove. Unfortunately, their disapproval has not had much effect on the problem. Once again for me it comes down to modern Islam being extremely screwed up, and the only people who can fix it are reasonable Muslims. I wish them luck.

Meanwhile, non-Muslim countries are stuck with Muslim immigrants who bring this and other problems with them. We now have honor killings throughout Europe and North America--anywhere with a substantial Muslim population. The only way to keep honor killings out is to keep Muslims out, which is pretty discriminatory.

 

[Autodidact]

i don't know if you do it on purpose but i admit you are quite talented. once more you saved yourself from hearing me saying "i completely agree with you". i applaud you for that

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I accept frubals .

What I'm interested in, and I think offers salvation, is the feminist movement within Islam. The good news is that it has scriptural and historic support. The bad news is that it hasn't made much headway.

 

[.lava]

Auto, I appreciate the research and links, and I'm not saying honour killings don't happen or aren't a problem. But equally, we have a person on the forum who lives in an Islamic state who doesn't see honour killings as justifiable or the norm in her (sorry if you're not a her .lava) country. Doesn't that tell you something?

i am female. i am also from Turkey. i have no doubt all the Muslims here would disagree with honor killings. it is not Islamic, it is tribal which means if you were born into a certain tribe, it is applied to you; if you were not born into a tribe, even though you still live in the same nation, it is not applied to you. therefor it is a tribal issue, not religious

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[Autodidact]

i am female. i am also from Turkey. i have no doubt all the Muslims here would disagree with honor killings. it is not Islamic, it is tribal which means if you were born into a certain tribe, it is applied to you; if you were not born into a tribe, even though you still live in the same nation, it is not applied to you. therefor it is a tribal issue, not religious

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But isn't it a heck of a lot of tribes? I mean, if it's happening in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Bangladesh, Yemen, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and even among Muslim immigrants in Germany, Britain, and the U.S., that's an awful lot of different tribes.