Anti-Islamic Sentiment on RF

[.lava]

I accept frubals .

What I'm interested in, and I think offers salvation, is the feminist movement within Islam. The good news is that it has scriptural and historic support. The bad news is that it hasn't made much headway.

no, i'll save my frubal chance for you until you'd be objective and fair.

i am sorry, i don't like feminist. i like humanist -if i really must chose something else that ends with -ist

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[Sahar]

I am a secular atheist and believe in the maxim each to his own, so long as what a person does brings no harm to other sentient beings. The problem is some -- who view "homosexuality, adultery, abortion or ..." atheism as wrong -- take actions that would harm those who practice the offending life style, or hold the wrong views. So in propagating the notion that the above individuals are immoral, ie. bad, or offensive to God, places the onus upon extremists to do something about the problem and moderates, where possible, to place legal restrictions upon those who offend them -- ie., making homosexuality or atheism a crime, as they are in many Middle Eastern cultures. Suddenly, it is no longer a case of live and let live, but live as I do, or else! It is a slippery slope when some members of society claim moral superiority over those who don't live as or believe as they do and hold God up as the rational for their superiority, because -- of course -- God trumps all. You can disagree all you want with the correctness of the aforementioned positions, and I will defend your right to do so, but don't flash the moral superiority card at me. In some countries that card would even trump my right to exist, except in hiding.

My assertion that homosexuals, adulaters, pro-abortionists, atheists, or whatever, are not immoral, means they have every right to live a full and rewarding life. Your claim that they are immoral would appear to mean that they are bad for society and should have their life styles curtailed, restricted, and perhaps silenced, because it is not right that something that is immoral and bad in society should be given free reign to fester and spread like a disease to infect the moral. Or do you think the immoral, as you would call us, should be allowed to live openly and without restrictions from the law? (I am not a homosexual, but I am an atheist, and I am assuming you would consider this something undesirable and immoral).

I am a Muslim and thus anti-secular. I don't believe in live and let live especially when it comes to the Islamic society; the Muslim enjoins good and forbids evil.

The problem is some -- who view "homosexuality, adultery, abortion or ..." atheism as wrong -- take actions that would harm those who practice the offending life style, or hold the wrong views. So in propagating the notion that the above individuals are immoral, ie. bad, or offensive to God, places the onus upon extremists to do something about the problem and moderates, where possible, to place legal restrictions upon those who offend them -- ie., making homosexuality or atheism a crime, as they are in many Middle Eastern cultures.

Sure thing. If the Muslim society viewed abortion as an act of murder, then naturally there would be restriction. Just like when when you don't view it as immoral, you allow it. And thus I also have a problem with the permissibility of such things.

You can disagree all you want with the correctness of the aforementioned positions, and I will defend your right to do so, but don't flash the moral superiority card at me. In some countries that card would even trump my right to exist, except in hiding.

I can disagree and I can share in shaping the morals of my society and you can't take any of this from me. If the Islamic society agreed to live by the Islamic principles and Shari'a, you wouldn't have any say in this. So I will flash the card of the moral superiority and authority of Islam to my Islamic society whenever I want.

It seems you have a problem with my position and I have a problem with yours, what should we do about this?
I personally see that this shouldn't stop us from having a civilized and honest debates.

P.S. atheism is undesirable and everything yet I believe you should have the freedom to believe whatever you want, including being an atheist; Islam granted freedom of belief.

 

[Autodidact]

I am a Muslim and thus anti-secular. I don't believe in live and let live

And there you have the problem. Muslims ask others for tolerance, but at least this poster is not willing to extend that tolerance to others. The one thing that neither I nor a democratic society can tolerate is intolerance. This may be why you feel that you experience intolerance.

Again, that puts us others in a position of needing to resist Muslim immigration and expansion--we have no choice.

It seems you have a problem with my position and I have a problem with yours, what should we do about this?

The main thing that I need to do is to make sure that you and people like you are not allowed to immigrate to my country, since you apparently don't believe in letting me live.

P.S. atheism is undesirable and everything yet I believe you should have the freedom to believe whatever you want, including being an atheist; Islam granted freedom of belief.

this seems to contradict the statement bolded above, unless I'm misunderstanding you?

 

[Sahar]

The people who commit honor SAY they do so because of their religion. Religious leaders condone the killings. They happen only among Muslims, including non-Arab Muslims, and not among Christian Arabs. They are not isolated occurrences, but common in Pakistan, Jordan, Bangladesh, Syria, etc., etc.

Actually it happens among Christian Arabs.

 

[Sahar]

And there you have the problem. Muslims ask others for tolerance, but at least this poster is not willing to extend that tolerance to others. The one thing that neither I nor a democratic society can tolerate is intolerance. This may be why you feel that you experience intolerance.

Again, that puts us others in a position of needing to resist Muslim immigration and expansion--we have no choice.

The main thing that I need to do is to make sure that you and people like you are not allowed to immigrate to my country, since you apparently don't believe in letting me live.

this seems to contradict the statement bolded above, unless I'm misunderstanding you?

Nice job at twisting what I said. A person of integrity?!

 

[Autodidact]

Nice job at twisting what I said. A person of integrity?!

I quoted you directly. You said, "I don't believe in live and let live..." Maybe you'd like to clarify?

 

[Sahar]

I generally agree with your observations but it seems to me the reason Islamic laws appear barbaric to us in the West is that we have long been secularized. Islam as a religion was developed and spread by Arabic people who were in possession of some very harsh justice of their own that was incorporated into their new faith. Those harsh customs have become part of the fabric of Islamic culture and I suspect were present from the beginning of the faith. If those harsh laws and customs are not incorporated into the Koran then it may be possible for Muslims to retain their religion while secularizing the culture. Christian Europe once had some very barbaric practices of its own. Secularization might be the answer but it can only come from Muslims themselves.

When Christian Europe was living in its darkness, Muslims had one of the greatest civilizations in the world (if not the greatest). Europe couldn't move forward except after getting rid of Christianity unlike Muslims; when they abandoned Islam, they went backwards.
So the solution is not secularization but is Islam. Secularization will never be a solution.

 

[Storm]

When Christian Europe was living in its darkness, Muslims had one of the greatest civilizations in the world (if not the greatest). Europe couldn't move forward except after getting rid of Christianity unlike Muslims; when they abandoned Islam, they went backwards.
So the solution is not secularization but is Islam. Secularization will never be a solution.

When did Muslims abandon Islam?

 

[Sahar]

I quoted you directly. You said, "I don't believe in live and let live..." Maybe you'd like to clarify?

I already clarified.

I don't believe in live and let live especially when it comes to the Islamic society; the Muslim enjoins good and forbids evil.

I can disagree and I can share in shaping the morals of my society and you can't take any of this from me. If the Islamic society agreed to live by the Islamic principles and Shari'a, you wouldn't have any say in this.

 

[Sahar]

When did Muslims abandon Islam?

This is how Muslims are now.

 

[Sahar]

When a Muslim sees something wrong, he shouldn't pass by as he didn't see anything, if it was possible to correct this wrong even by the good advice, he should.

 

[Father Heathen]

When a Muslim sees something wrong, he shouldn't pass by as he didn't see anything, if it was possible to correct this wrong even by the good advice, he should.

It is possible to openly disagree with something without having to shed blood or blow something up. The problem lies with over-reacting towards things in a disproportionate manner, like wanting to kill people over a silly and harmless cartoon. Calling for the execution of homosexuals is another example. Even if you believe it's "immoral", it's even more immoral to murder someone in cold blood over something that harmed no one.

 

[Sahar]

It is possible to openly disagree with something without having to shed blood or blow something up.

Did I say anything about this in any of my posts?
In addition, on the state level, there should be legal processes to work through to change corruption, injustice, immorality, evil...etc. On the individuals level, you just can't resort to violence.

 

[.lava]

But isn't it a heck of a lot of tribes? I mean, if it's happening in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Bangladesh, Yemen, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and even among Muslim immigrants in Germany, Britain, and the U.S., that's an awful lot of different tribes.

i don't know details about every nation but in Turkey they are Kurdish tribes from East

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[darkendless]

It is possible to openly disagree with something without having to shed blood or blow something up. The problem lies with over-reacting towards things in a disproportionate manner, like wanting to kill people over a silly and harmless cartoon. Calling for the execution of homosexuals is another example. Even if you believe it's "immoral", it's even more immoral to murder someone in cold blood over something that harmed no one.

It's not a very good selling point for Islam as the religion of peace is it.

Remember in Nigeria where a British woman had to get a government pardon for the offence of allowing a child to call his teddy bear Mohammed? Half the country wanted to cut her head off.

 

[maro]

Calling for the execution of homosexuals is another example.

I just want to clarify something that was repeated over and over in this thread...Islam has no problem with homosexuality itself...the punishable sin in Islam is practicing sodomy and not being a homosexual

so ,if you are a homosexual...you either view this as a perversion that needs psychotherapy...and it will be offered to you...or you believe it to be a *normal variation * that should be tolerated and openely practiced...then your place is not among muslim

 

[Father Heathen]

I just want to clarify something that was repeated over and over in this thread...Islam has no problem with homosexuality itself...the punishable sin in Islam is practicing sodomy and not being a homosexual

so ,if you are a homosexual...you either view this as a perversion that needs psychotherapy...and it will be offered to you...or you believe it to be a *normal variation * that should be tolerated and openely praciced...then your place is not among muslims

That doesn't make any difference. They still execute people for doing something that happened in private between consenting adults, that was harmless and that had victimized no one. Surely you can understand why some people might see those who want to torture and murder over it as barbaric little monsters.

 

[Ozzie]

Has RF always been so anti-Islamic?

There have been a lot of threads about Islam, or threads that have degenerated into Islam-bashing, in the last few weeks. More so than there seem to be looking back through the older pages of threads in the debates forum anyway.

Has the anti-Islamic sentiment always been present? I've seen it said that it's in response to more fundamentalist Muslims becoming members, is that true?

Am I the only one getting bored with all the hate? Especially when every other thread devolves into an anti-Islam rant repeating the same old arguments/comments, it gets me down.

Probably due to the relative dearth of Islamics and multitude of Americans on the site. Christians get bashed up all the time here, but it is not logical to expect them to self-harm, and it is my impression that most of the atheists would rather not unless...

 

[Sahar]

people for doing something that happened in private between consenting adults

Consenting adults can do a lot of things in private like incest. This won't prevent from viewing them as immoral and unacceptable practices. And if it was private, so how would any one know about this? So adultery and sodomy inside a dark closed room is none of the society's business, this is something between them (the sinners) and God but when it comes outside, this is a different story.

 

[Father Heathen]

Consenting adults can do a lot of things in private like incest. This won't prevent from viewing them as immoral and unacceptable practices. And if it was private, so how would any one know about this? So adultery and sodomy inside a dark closed room is none of the society's business, this is something between them (the sinners) and God but when it comes outside, this is a different story.

But once it's known, it's okay to torture and murder them despite the fact they haven't hurt or harmed anyone? See, it's that thirst for blood that the civilized world looks down upon.