Anti-Islamic Sentiment on RF

[Gharib]

no Soul bears Sins of another Soul ,53 the Star 38

Hadith Bukhari ,Jimiz "The dead will suffer for the tears of his/hers Family will shed for him/her.

195 - Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: you are members one of another.
3 The Family of Imran, 195

Hadith: ”A good woman among women is like a white crow among one hundred crows.”
Bukhari

These Hadith obviously contradict the Qur'an even though they are considered authentic,so from an outside view,why are the Hadith neccessary,these are from reliable collections but as you know there are many more with dubious authenticity.

can you explain how these hadith are contradicting the quran, i can't understand.

 

[Gharib]

What i mean Lava is,if we accept that only the Qur'an is the literal word of God then the Ahadith must be the literal word of Man and therefore subject to error or falsification which in turn causes lost lives and conflicts.

PS i can't see you but know that you are a good Woman

everything the prophet spoke about islam was divinly inspired. Allah says in the quran that if any prophet had spoken falsely then they would be greatly punished. (don't know if it deirectly speaks to Muhammed (saws) or in general) because if you think about it, he only received the quran from Allah, so how could Muhammed (saws) understand it and explain it unless he was taught about it?

 

[.lava]

there is more to the hadith than just quoting one and saying look this is what it clearly says, they must be studied in the historical context in order to understand them. thats what the scholars have done therefore the hadith that have been clasified as Sahih are not in contradiction to the quran at all. but in order to understand this, ones needs to have knowledge of the islamic history mainly the period that the prophet lived in order to understand the hadith properly.

that's absolute assumption. if not all, some of those scholars are the ones who say "OK" to selling 10 year old girls to 70 years old men, same people who is OK with torturing people to death and insist that's, in fact, "mercy", same people who keep silent specially when women were treated 2nd class human beings. don't expect me to follow their footsteps cos signs seem headed to hell. don't get me wrong. i know none of them in person. i am taught certain hadiths and i do know that most of Imams teach wrong because they were taught wrong. they are innocent for that matter but results remain and are not nice. i also happened to know some religious leaders came to realize their judgement was wrong all along but they would not admit it because of their pride. if i make a mistake it would nt effect masses but a religious leader or a scholar, their mistak has a huge burden. this is Planet Earth, these are facts. and in case if those scholars were right about everything then Muslims would not be punished today. if Muslims did not leave the right path then they would have peaceful nations with peaceful minds. but, no, Muslims are in agony and if they're still blaming others instead of themselves, then i can only feel even more sorry for all of us because we will all pay for it. in this conditions i can't blindly follow anyone other than the Messenger himself. so excuse me, please, you and other Muslims, i would keep sharing what i know. you may hate me for it and if you do, someday you may hate yourselves for it. either way i won't hate you

sorry for long reply. i just don't speak like this in general. i don't think i would repeat myself about this fo you again.

thank you for your time


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[fatima_bintu_islam]

The very basic point that I think everyone is missing on here, is that the knowledge of Quran and hadeeth is a science, and as every science in this word you should have some basic tools to get into this knowledge, not everyone can come and say "Oh I think this hadeeth means such and such "or this verse means such and such until he had acquired some tools.

For example, take mathematics ; you cant put a proposition until you have acquired some mathematic tools, you should have learnt algebra, analysis and studied a lot of other things.

On the same line, to enter or to discuss Islamic knowledge , one must have learned a lot of stuffs before saying his/her own point of view Thats for a muslim, as for non-muslims then either they should learn or they should start by debating the existence or the non-existence of God IMHO.

And Allah knows best

 

[Caladan]

The very basic point that I think everyone is missing on here, is that the knowledge of Quran and hadeeth is a science, and as every science in this word you should have some basic tools to get into this knowledge, not everyone can come and say "Oh I think this hadeeth means such and such "or this verse means such and such until he had acquired some tools.

For example, take mathematics ; you cant put a proposition until you have acquired some mathematic tools, you should have learnt algebra, analysis and studied a lot of other things.

While I see your point, mainly that sutyding and commenting on the hadith needs to come from a place of Islamic scholarship, I think that the difference I see between a scholarly take on Hadith and mathematics, is that mathematics operates on universal laws which everyone agree on. while with the hadith Sunni and Shia have different sets of hadith and in the science of Hadith we have sahih, daif and mawdu, or authentic, weak and fabricated.

On the same line, to enter or to discuss Islamic knowledge , one must have learned a lot of stuffs before saying his/her own point of view Thats for a muslim, as for non-muslims then either they should learn or they should start by debating the existence or the non-existence of God IMHO.

And Allah knows best

I think that the debate on the existence of God is not of the interest of academic and scholarly discourse, instead the material at hands is what we have and what we can and should work with: the Qur'an, the hadith, biographies etc. people either attribute religious significance or they dont, regardless of either option they can study a topic.

 

[Autodidact]

the true muslims are those that obey what the quran and hadith teach, anyone who dissobeys that is in error.

But of course, people-who-call-themselves-Muslim have quite different opinions about what that is, don't they?

 

[Autodidact]

that is a very ignorant way to define a muslim. in that case you are an american just like those americans that rape, kill, torture etc etc, so you are the same as them.

Well, I'm an American. It doesn't follow that all Americans are alike, any more than all Muslims are alike. They're just all Muslims.

In any case, how would you expect me, a non-Muslim, to tell the True Muslims from the fake? Ask you?

So are you saying that there are a lot of people-who-call-themselves-Muslim who aren't? They're lying? Or what?

 

[Autodidact]

because you (the non-muslims, not all though) are in the process of evolving into ignorant creatures while we are aren't.

You realize that your answer makes no sense, right? You're saying that non-Muslim countries are more educated because they're more ignorant.

Are you claiming that literacy rates in Muslim countries are increasing, while decreasing in non-Muslim countries? Here is a list of countries by literacy rate. At the top are former Soviet bloc satellites and Western Democracies. At the bottom are sub-Saharan Africa, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Morocco, Yemen...

Why do you think that is?

 

[Autodidact]

that is a very ignorant way to define a muslim. in that case you are an american just like those americans that rape, kill, torture etc etc, so you are the same as them.

You don't have to like my definition. Just substitute p-w-c-t-M anywhere you read the word "Muslim" in my posts.

So why do p-w-c-t-M's practice punishing rape victims, rioting over cartoons, suicide bombing, terrorism, religious conflict, killing gay people, etc. etc. at such a high rate?

Apparently you reserve to yourself the right to determine who is a True Muslim and who is not?

 

[Caladan]

Well, I'm an American. It doesn't follow that all Americans are alike, any more than all Muslims are alike. They're just all Muslims.

That, im my opinion, is the crux of the issue. Muslims like members of other expanded communities come in different flavors, and they are all equally Muslim. just like Jews may be left wing, right wing, secular or religious but at large they would still be regarded as Jews.
for example would it be constructive for me to shrug off Jewish extremists, and say 'oh, don't mind them, they aren't REAL Jews'?
nor me, nor Autodidact, nor all other people who follow current events can hold to some mythical standard that is beyond what people here in the real world do. I think that this issue needs to be understood before we can have a more meaningful discussion.

 

[Autodidact]

The very basic point that I think everyone is missing on here, is that the knowledge of Quran and hadeeth is a science, and as every science in this word you should have some basic tools to get into this knowledge, not everyone can come and say "Oh I think this hadeeth means such and such "or this verse means such and such until he had acquired some tools.

For example, take mathematics ; you cant put a proposition until you have acquired some mathematic tools, you should have learnt algebra, analysis and studied a lot of other things.

On the same line, to enter or to discuss Islamic knowledge , one must have learned a lot of stuffs before saying his/her own point of view Thats for a muslim, as for non-muslims then either they should learn or they should start by debating the existence or the non-existence of God IMHO.

And Allah knows best

So the people who study a long time are the experts? People like Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammed, Anwar al-Aulaqi, Ibrahim Suleiman al Rubaish, Anwar al Awlaki? Educated Imams like that?

 

[Gharib]

But of course, people-who-call-themselves-Muslim have quite different opinions about what that is, don't they?

the word 'muslim' itslef means "one who has submited to Allah" the islamic way to submit to Allah is through the quran and hadith. i could say i am a christian but i don't have to believe in jesus nor in god, so in your oppinion does that mean i am right just because i call myself a christian?

 

[Autodidact]

the word 'muslim' itslef means "one who has submited to Allah" the islamic way to submit to Allah is through the quran and hadith. i could say i am a christian but i don't have to believe in jesus nor in god, so in your oppinion does that mean i am right just because i call myself a christian?

1. But don't they have widely varying differences of opinion about how one submits to Allah?

2. So what's going on with all the people who who call themselves Muslim but aren't? Are they liars?

3. Roughly around what % of people who call themselves Muslim really are, in your opinion?

*derives amusement from Muslims and Christians who use the identical fallacy to further their agendas*

 

[Gharib]

Well, I'm an American. It doesn't follow that all Americans are alike, any more than all Muslims are alike. They're just all Muslims.

so if i said that pedophilia was the american way, would you accept it?

In any case, how would you expect me, a non-Muslim, to tell the True Muslims from the fake? Ask you?

no you don't have to ask me, you can learn about the quran and hadith and then you will see who is a true muslim.

go to this thread in the islam forum "which side really represents islam"

So are you saying that there are a lot of people-who-call-themselves-Muslim who aren't? They're lying? Or what?

calling ones self a muslim and doing what the quran and hadith say are 2 different things.

but non the less they are considered muslims with weak faith, but their actions do not represent the teachings of islam because they do not follow the teachings of the quran nor the hadith as i said. but you are putting all muslims in the one jar, all the while you would not like it if i said you are a pedophile, a killer, etc. as some americans are.

 

[England my lionheart]

there is no her or his understanding. to comment on a hadith one needs to have the historical knowledge such as when the prophet said that, under what circumstances, was it in relation to something that had happened etc etc. anyone who does not know this cannot comment on the hadith, it is not the islamic way.

Yay i'm home from work,ok what i would say here is i a have looked at many Ahadith and my favourite is about a Camel but thats another story,anyway i digress,lets take a controversial hadith like when Aisha was Married to Muhammed,now there are occurences where Men are Marrying Child Brides,ok so thats a precedent that Muhammed set from the hadith,whether the Marriage to Aisha was a convenient contract or not isn't an issue.

 

[Autodidact]

so if i said that pedophilia was the american way, would you accept it?

No, why would I? Do Americans espouse pedophilia as American? Do Americans punish people for failing to practice it? Do Amercians practice pedophilia at a higher rate than other nationalities?

no you don't have to ask me, you can learn about the quran and hadith and then you will see who is a true muslim.

But if even the most learned Muslims can't agree, how do you expect me, a non-Muslim to figure it out?

And how much of my life do you expect me to devote to this Muslim-exposing project?

go to this thread in the islam forum "which side really represents islam"

Not right now, thanks.

calling ones self a muslim and doing what the quran and hadith say are 2 different things.

So a lot of people-who-call-themselves Muslim are liars?

Do you have to follow 100% of the qur'an and hadith? Including these:
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers(non-Muslims) wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers (Muslims) fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed." Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe (non-Muslims) until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

but non the less they are considered muslims with weak faith, but their actions do not represent the teachings of islam because they do not follow the teachings of the quran nor the hadith as i said. but you are putting all muslims in the one jar, all the while you would not like it if i said you are a pedophile, a killer, etc. as some americans are.

Wait, are they not Muslims, or are they Muslims with weak faith? Which?

It seems to me that a willingness to kill yourself for your faith exhibits a strong faith rather than a weak on.

I am putting all Muslims in the "Muslim" jar. I am not saying that all Muslims are pedophiles or killers, only that they're all Muslims. Duh. A = A. If you're a Muslim, then you're a Muslim.

In the Muslim jar are many violent extremists, terrorists, authorities who punish the innocent, ordinary people who riot over someone else's free speech, men who beat up women because they don't like their outfits, men who throw acid on little girls for going to school, men who kill their wives, daughters and sisters to protect their own "honor" and the like. Not all, many. Why do you think that is? We don't have a lot of people-who-don't-call-themselves-Muslim doing those things.

btw, your double-think and double-talk is amazing. You contradict yourself constantly. That should be a hint to you.

 

[Tiapan]

the word 'muslim' itslef means "one who has submited to Allah" the islamic way to submit to Allah is through the quran and hadith. i could say i am a christian but i don't have to believe in jesus nor in god, so in your oppinion does that mean i am right just because i call myself a christian?

Just curious mate, if the Quran is perfect having been written by allah, why do you need the haddith written by man?

Cheers

 

[Gharib]

Just curious mate, if the Quran is perfect having been written by allah, why do you need the haddith written by man?

Cheers

the quran was written by men (scholars) not by Allah, Allah authored it.


the hadith are an explanation of the quran, thus if any hadith contradicts the quran then that is false and was not from Muhammed (saws). everything that the prophet spoke about Islam (the complete muslim way of life) was not from his own mind, but he was told what to say.

 

[Gharib]

Yay i'm home from work,ok what i would say here is i a have looked at many Ahadith and my favourite is about a Camel but thats another story,anyway i digress,lets take a controversial hadith like when Aisha was Married to Muhammed,now there are occurences where Men are Marrying Child Brides,ok so thats a precedent that Muhammed set from the hadith,whether the Marriage to Aisha was a convenient contract or not isn't an issue.

so are you asking me a question? i can't figure it out what it is.

p.s. i know which hadith you mean about the camel, the one about drinking the urine. am i correct?

 

[Autodidact]

quran was written by men (scholars) not by Allah, Allah authored it

Did you maybe mis-speak here? Because this is a direct contradiction. Possibly a translation problem?