Anyone can be a beachgoer, but can everyone be a ...?

[Epic Beard Man]

No prob to consider the mentality of the people at the time, not for me.

Those who think their ancient texts are composed of infallible eternal verities do tho.

The picture is not from an "ex-moslem".

What you are sure of may be so and it may be not.

I doubt that any actual god would be petty, but the
OT god sure is. If the Islamic god is too, no surprise there.

"Is" ion the sense that I see both as characters in
semi-historical novels, not as actual beings.

Regardless of all that, my point was about "warnings"
from "god".

You missed or otherwise did not in any way respond to that.

Shouldst one obey all injunctions from all gods,
Pascals wager and all?

Your question is best asked to someone who follows religion

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I have to wonder why a real God would do such a thing.

It feels all the world like something that a certain variety of man-made God would promise, but not at all what a real God would bother with.




Uh... what on Earth is that supposed to mean? Are you implying that being a believer is somehow a good thing that one should hope for, or admire, or feel fortunate for?

Because, let me tell you, that is not at all self-evident a premise.




Sorry. I must again disagree fiercely on both counts.

Religiosity as I understand it requires some effort, skill and even rational ability.

Meanwhile, basic solidarity is actually quite common, very nearly universal even.




I am sorry to tell you that, but it looks like someone has been lying quite shamelessly to you.

I don't even know who you are thinking about when you mention those supposed "hardcore atheists", but truth be told, I believe those people to be fully fabricated. It is just not very likely to happen with real people at all often.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I have ever learned of any real person who actually went through such a situation. None comes to mind right now, at the very least. And it would be weird to learn of any.

You don’t but I have. You guys forget I work at a hospital. The center of mortality is evident in my emergency room where people die all the time.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

No, they really don't.

BTW: why do you as a theist want to reduce your god to the last-ditch option for people at their most irrational and desperate?

I mean, when someone's at the end of their rope and doesn't see anywhere else to turn, they might resort to robbery to get cash, but nobody says "aha! I knew that in your heart of hearts, you secretly thought that robber was a good career choice!"

I don’t turn to God when I am desperate but I like to pray and ask for help but I don’t forget God and then when I need something turn to HIM for help. I don’t like people turning to God like someone who commits robbery out of desperation. People turn to God subconsciously knowing their life may come to an end and they know post existence they have no control.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don’t turn to God when I am desperate but I like to pray and ask for help but I don’t forget God and then when I need something turn to HIM for help.

You're claiming that others do, though.

I don’t like people turning to God like someone who commits robbery out of desperation.

Whether you like it or not, it seems to me that you are saying that it happens and you tried to argue a point on it.

People turn to God subconsciously knowing their life may come to an end and they know post existence they have no control.

Again: most people don't do this. But those who do are appealing out of desperation to something that, when they're thinking at their clearest, carefully considered and rejected, just as someone who resorted to robbery out of desperation may have rejected a life of crime beforehand when things were less desperate.

It paints your god and belief in god in a terrible light, so why do theists keep bringing up the idea?

 

[`mud]

I think that you're all full of crap !
When you're done....you're done...so be it !
Bye bye `spirit`... bye bye `soul`...bye bye me !

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You're claiming that others do, though.


Whether you like it or not, it seems to me that you are saying that it happens and you tried to argue a point on it.


Again: most people don't do this. But those who do are appealing out of desperation to something that, when they're thinking at their clearest, carefully considered and rejected, just as someone who resorted to robbery out of desperation may have rejected a life of crime beforehand when things were less desperate.

It paints your god and belief in god in a terrible light, so why do theists keep bringing up the idea?

Again you don’t know most people, not even 1% of the population of the world and neither do I. I go off what I see from work. You may dispute it, fine. But people do things out of desperation and seeking God is one of them. As far as my God, I don’t speak for him I am speaking on personal observation. I cannot conceive what a metaphysical deity thinks or perceived my linear existence, you’re making that inference not me. Again, I have seen people with my two eyes like other experiences I have had of others doing this. Not sure why the argument

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again you don’t know most people, not even 1% of the population of the world and neither do I. I go off what I see from work.

You said you work in an ER. I believe you see people die relatively often; I even believe you see dying people calling out to God relatively often; I don't believe that you interview these dying people to find out if they were atheists before they came in.

You may dispute it, fine. But people do things out of desperation and seeking God is one of then

Right: you're making God out to be something for people only when they're at their most desperate and irrational. I still don't understand why you're doing this.

Edit: it reminds me of a joke I used to hear HVAC mechanics make about how you could turn an HVAC mechanic into a plumber with a blunt object and a whack to the head.

Nothing against plumbers; I have tremendous respect for the profession. My point is that the whole "no atheists in foxholes" thing comes across like that joke, only a plumber is telling it. It's like you don't realize that you're denigrating yourself.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You said you work in an ER. I believe you see people die relatively often; I even believe you see dying people calling out to God relatively often; I don't believe that you interview these dying people to find out if they were atheists before they came in.


Right: you're making God out to be something for people only when they're at their most desperate and irrational. I still don't understand why you're doing this.

Edit: it reminds me of a joke I used to hear HVAC mechanics make about how you could turn an HVAC mechanic into a plumber with a blunt object and a whack to the head.

Nothing against plumbers; I have tremendous respect for the profession. My point is that the whole "no atheists in foxholes" thing comes across like that joke, only a plumber is telling it. It's like you don't realize that you're denigrating yourself.

I don’t make God into anything I am citing an observation of what I see. True, never seen an atheist in an Emergency room calling out to God but have discussed with atheists and ho had near death experiences who have called out to God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don’t make God into anything I am citing an observation of what I see. True, never seen an atheist in an Emergency room calling out to God but have discussed with atheists and ho had near death experiences who have called out to God.

But you understand what I'm getting at, right? Do you see the similarity?

- How do you make a plumber out of an HVAC mechanic?
- Give him a good whack to the head with a blunt object.

- How do you make a theist out of an atheist?
- Shell him and shoot at him until he can't think straight and he's so scared he craps himself.

It sure doesn't make theism seem like the reasonable option.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

But you understand what I'm getting at, right? Do you see the similarity?

- How do you make a plumber out of an HVAC mechanic?
- Give him a good whack to the head with a blunt object.

- How do you make a theist out of an atheist?
- Shell him and shoot at him until he can't think straight and he's so scared he craps himself.

It sure doesn't make theism seem like the reasonable option.

I see your point

 

[Revoltingest]

- How do you make a plumber out of an HVAC mechanic?
- Give him a good whack to the head with a blunt object.

You'd also have to teach the HVAC mechanic how to make neat looking plumbing runs.
(They suck at that. Plumbers have a much better sense of aesthetics in piping.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You'd also have to teach the HVAC mechanic how to make neat looking plumbing runs.
(They suck at that. Plumbers have a much better sense of aesthetics in piping.)

I heard that joke when I was working for an HVAC company. No plumbers around for retorts.

 

[Truthseeker]

I have to wonder why a real God would do such a thing.

It feels all the world like something that a certain variety of man-made God would promise, but not at all what a real God would bother with.

Explain yourself. What is a real God in your view? Don't you realize that God won't conform to your conception of Him? He is only the God of your imagination. My conception of God is through the Writings of the Baha'i Faith, which I investigated to see if it is the truth. I can't prove it to you, but you would have to investigate it yourself, and decide on the evidence.

 

[LuisDantas]

Explain yourself.

The core of it is that a God would have little to no reason to care whether people believe in his existence.

What is a real God in your view?

As I understand it, gods are unavoidably human creations. But at their best they are also well-cared representations of abstract goals, values and concepts that may well bring constructive inspiration and motivation.

We just ought to be careful not to take them too seriously, and above all not to care whether they "truly exist". There is a serious contradiction in expecting deities to "truly exist".

Don't you realize that God won't conform to your conception of Him?

No, I guess that I do not realize that. Gods are useful as tools for reflection on transcendence, of course. But saddling them with more than a certain amount of mystery is very much counterproductive.

After a while we end up in the odd situation of believing that they somehow care a lot, in an authoritarian, unenlightened way, about people that are by definition insignificant to them. That is just not healthy a mindset for one to nurture.

He is only the God of your imagination. My conception of God is through the Writings of the Baha'i Faith, which I investigated to see if it is the truth. I can't prove it to you, but you would have to investigate it yourself, and decide on the evidence.

I have no reason to consider an Abrahamic-styled God as if he were real. The whole notion is just too contradictory to begin with.

 

[Truthseeker]

The core of it is that a God would have little to no reason to care whether people believe in his existence.

It's not believing in His existence that's important but having a communing with Him. If you don't believe in His existence you won't seek Him. God created us with all His attributes so we could get to know Him. He does that because He loves us. Why can't a higher being love a lower being? He created us so we can know Him and be happy. Why do you think He created the Universe in the first place if He didn't love it?

 

[QuestioningMind]

He may have a point....Seen some hardcore atheists get on their knees in the face of danger. Everyone it seems turns to God when they face their own mortality.

What a ridiculous claim.