Archetypes & Shamanism & Christology

[Being]

Hi.
I asked something similar to this on the Shamanism DIR. However, I thought I might find a broader interaction on the New Age DIR.

Here is what I posted on the Shamanism subforum (I think I mentioned it on the Christian Wiccan subforum also):

I am curious about possible comparisons or even correlations between concepts in Shamanism and Jungian thought, especially archetypes and the collective unconscious. That is, could the Shamanic practice of working with spirits to achieve healing and reintegrating the soul be similar to Jungian ideas such as encountering or confronting archetypes in order to heal or free a person from "complexes." Could a Shamanic journey to healing and wholeness be similar to a Jungian type journey of self-discovery, and by extension, the Jungian Individuation process? Can dreamwork be viewed as a type of Shamanic journey (perhaps through several dreams, or over the course of a season in a person's life)?

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And here I would like to add the aspect of Christology. Jung believed in the concept of the Aion, a name for his view of Christ as the Archetype of the highest self, or the fully Individuated, fully integrated person. How do you see a New Age concept of Christ serving this need? Does it seem reasonable to draw comparisons or even parallels between Jungian thought, Shamanism, and a New Age concept of Christ, such as Christ Consciousness?

I look forward to your replies about these ideas, and perhaps other comparisons relative to these.
If you reply, please quote me, so I receive an alert.

Thanks,
Being

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Seeing Christ in a New Age point of view? Do you mean, how would I say, instead of looking at Christ as an actual person but a model of what our higher self would be if we were to be like Christ?

Hi.
I asked something similar to this on the Shamanism DIR. However, I thought I might find a broader interaction on the New Age DIR.

Here is what I posted on the Shamanism subforum (I think I mentioned it on the Christian Wiccan subforum also):

I am curious about possible comparisons or even correlations between concepts in Shamanism and Jungian thought, especially archetypes and the collective unconscious. That is, could the Shamanic practice of working with spirits to achieve healing and reintegrating the soul be similar to Jungian ideas such as encountering or confronting archetypes in order to heal or free a person from "complexes." Could a Shamanic journey to healing and wholeness be similar to a Jungian type journey of self-discovery, and by extension, the Jungian Individuation process? Can dreamwork be viewed as a type of Shamanic journey (perhaps through several dreams, or over the course of a season in a person's life)?

----------

And here I would like to add the aspect of Christology. Jung believed in the concept of the Aion, a name for his view of Christ as the Archetype of the highest self, or the fully Individuated, fully integrated person. How do you see a New Age concept of Christ serving this need? Does it seem reasonable to draw comparisons or even parallels between Jungian thought, Shamanism, and a New Age concept of Christ, such as Christ Consciousness?

I look forward to your replies about these ideas, and perhaps other comparisons relative to these.
If you reply, please quote me, so I receive an alert.

Thanks,
Being

 

[Being]

Seeing Christ in a New Age point of view? Do you mean, how would I say, instead of looking at Christ as an actual person but a model of what our higher self would be if we were to be like Christ?

Hi, Carlita

(I see in the thread about the term "New Age" that you state you find the term offensive. I used it in a positive way. But I can use a different term when discussing the ideas with you. What term would you prefer? Perhaps "metaphysical"?)

Thanks for replying here (and to my post in the Shamanism DIR). I see Shamanism and (Jungian) psychoanalysis doing generally the same work: re-integrating the soul, or psyche. And Jung viewed Christ as the model for the highest self, or the fully integrated psyche/soul/person. (Jung seems to have believed in Christ as a real being, but maybe in the archetypal sense, and as such would be the Highest or Ultimate Archetype).

New Age believes in a Christ Consciousness. Could we see this as correlating to Jung's idea of the Aion, of Christ being the Highest Archetype, or the Highest Self? If so, would we be acknowledging Christ as that which heals and integrates us, evolves us to our Highest Self? I'm curious what similarities and correlations you see in these ideas. We can view Christ as either an actual person or an Archetypal model, or both.

In Jung's views, the archetypes are living aspects of the Human psyche. They are more than mere abstract concepts. They represent aspects of the self. But they reside in the Collective Unconscious, and as such they are shared phenomena.

So, if New Age believes in Christ as a living entity (even as a Person), then the New Age "Christ Consciousness" would be similar in some ways to Jung's "Aion." New Age Christ, and Jung's Aion, would be universally shared in Human experience, but unique to each individual human life. And if New Age believes that Christ is an actual Person (or at least is manifest as an actual person -- e.g., Jesus Christ of scriptures), then Jesus Christ would be a living Archetype in Human form. As such, he would be a living model of this fully integrated self or Highest Human Self. Do any of these ideas seem to be what New Age says about Christ? And what belief in, and experience of, Christ Consciousness does for an individual?

Thanks.
Peace,
Being

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Probably according to Jung, Christ is the highest example of and part of different archetypes that are a part of (rather than define, sorry) our collective conscious? (If that makes sense, since this is foreign terminology)

Kind of like...

(Acht) Buddha=Wisdom
(Acht) Christ=sacrifice

In that everyone has wisdom to some degree and believe in sacrifice themselves (their time, effort, life, so have you), so Jung could use these to acht Buddha or Christ depending on the person to heal that person back to their higher self--their healthy psyche?

--

I think Jung's theory (Which makes a lot of sense) relates to New Age through if not is New Age thought, just philosophized and made concrete. (thank you Jung ) I think the New Age thought is more each person is different view of "consciousness definition" while Jung is applying his theory to everyone via describing our psyche by collective conscious.

Do any of these ideas seem to be what New Age says about Christ? And what belief in, and experience of, Christ Consciousness does for an individual?

I actually rarely hear someone I may consider new age talk about Christ as exactly he is portrayed by scriptures "and" by His followers. Rather, many who come from Christian backgrounds may attach to the humanistic part of Him and care He had for others which may seem more than what they may think of people today. Some New Ages differentiate Christ from His Divine nature (Him being God) and redefine Him as an "aspect" or mirror, I guess of the Divine (rather than calling Him God) and still accept His actual existence as a human being.

Personally, Christ's "conscious" (or what His archetype represents) is that of compassion (in some cases), humility, and example of a person with high devotion in His Father. I feel any person can experience "Christ" as a archetype to heal their inner conscious.

EDIT: Oh... and with dreams, I think Jung had the right idea of using dreams to heal people of their unhealthy psyche (if that's right?) Shaman's would probably relate in that. I think the difference is culture and practices. Some countries don't call their doctors Shamans... but they do basically what a Shaman does.

In New Age, it would be Holistic Healer. Jung, would be dream work, and Shaman spirit work.

All using the conscious and many collective conscious(?) and in some regards spiritual work dealing with religious archetypes (though Jung may not call it that) to heal others psyche.

Good conversation, by the way.

Hi, Carlita
(I see in the thread about the term "New Age" that you state you find the term offensive. I used it in a positive way. But I can use a different term when discussing the ideas with you. What term would you prefer? Perhaps "metaphysical"?)

Thanks for replying here (and to my post in the Shamanism DIR). I see Shamanism and (Jungian) psychoanalysis doing generally the same work: re-integrating the soul, or psyche. And Jung viewed Christ as the model for the highest self, or the fully integrated psyche/soul/person. (Jung seems to have believed in Christ as a real being, but maybe in the archetypal sense, and as such would be the Highest or Ultimate Archetype).

New Age believes in a Christ Consciousness. Could we see this as correlating to Jung's idea of the Aion, of Christ being the Highest Archetype, or the Highest Self? If so, would we be acknowledging Christ as that which heals and integrates us, evolves us to our Highest Self? I'm curious what similarities and correlations you see in these ideas. We can view Christ as either an actual person or an Archetypal model, or both.

In Jung's views, the archetypes are living aspects of the Human psyche. They are more than mere abstract concepts. They represent aspects of the self. But they reside in the Collective Unconscious, and as such they are shared phenomena.

So, if New Age believes in Christ as a living entity (even as a Person), then the New Age "Christ Consciousness" would be similar in some ways to Jung's "Aion." New Age Christ, and Jung's Aion, would be universally shared in Human experience, but unique to each individual human life. And if New Age believes that Christ is an actual Person (or at least is manifest as an actual person -- e.g., Jesus Christ of scriptures), then Jesus Christ would be a living Archetype in Human form. As such, he would be a living model of this fully integrated self or Highest Human Self. Do any of these ideas seem to be what New Age says about Christ? And what belief in, and experience of, Christ Consciousness does for an individual?

Thanks.
Peace,
Being

Also, I can't think of anything to replace the word New Age. Metaphysical believers? (Guess keep with New Age, that's fine.)

 

[Being]

Carlita,
Thanks for your reply.
You seem to grasp the ideas well. I like the way you sum up the comparisons:

"In New Age, it would be Holistic Healer. Jung, would be dream work, and Shaman spirit work."

Jung used other methods in addition to dream work, but that is a primary way to examine the archetypes and how they act within a person's psyche, both unconsciously and consciously. Dream work seems a more direct way to observe and analyze the archetypes and how they manifest in a person's mind. But of course, they have to be interpreted, which he did with psychoanalysis.

You also seem to understand that the archetypes and spirits are interpreted differently, and are called by different names and descriptions, in different cultures and belief systems. Also, you wrote:

"Personally, Christ's "conscious" (or what His archetype represents) is that of compassion (in some cases), humility, and example of a person with high devotion in His Father. I feel any person can experience "Christ" as a archetype to heal their inner conscious."

Yes, and in different cultures or different belief systems, it might be understood as "spirit" or something else, instead of "archetype" and by some name or description instead of "Christ," but it would mean the same (or maybe even actually be the same thing, because it's really what the person is experiencing within themselves, but called by different words).

That's where I'm going next in my thinking. Is what we're describing (this process of healing or integration) a connection with an actual entity from outside oneself, or is it really an inner aspect of oneself? Whether called "Christ" or some other name; whether understood as an archetype, or a spirit, or something else; perhaps it is really an aspect of one's inner self that a person is envisioning, that is bringing about the healing, or the integration of the mind/soul.

I have some personal things to take care of, so I don't know how soon I'll be back to read this thread.
Thanks for the conversation. I appreciate it.

Peace,
Being

Probably according to Jung, Christ is the highest example of and part of different archetypes that are a part of (rather than define, sorry) our collective conscious? (If that makes sense, since this is foreign terminology)

Kind of like...

(Acht) Buddha=Wisdom
(Acht) Christ=sacrifice

In that everyone has wisdom to some degree and believe in sacrifice themselves (their time, effort, life, so have you), so Jung could use these to acht Buddha or Christ depending on the person to heal that person back to their higher self--their healthy psyche?

--

I think Jung's theory (Which makes a lot of sense) relates to New Age through if not is New Age thought, just philosophized and made concrete. (thank you Jung ) I think the New Age thought is more each person is different view of "consciousness definition" while Jung is applying his theory to everyone via describing our psyche by collective conscious.


I actually rarely hear someone I may consider new age talk about Christ as exactly he is portrayed by scriptures "and" by His followers. Rather, many who come from Christian backgrounds may attach to the humanistic part of Him and care He had for others which may seem more than what they may think of people today. Some New Ages differentiate Christ from His Divine nature (Him being God) and redefine Him as an "aspect" or mirror, I guess of the Divine (rather than calling Him God) and still accept His actual existence as a human being.

Personally, Christ's "conscious" (or what His archetype represents) is that of compassion (in some cases), humility, and example of a person with high devotion in His Father. I feel any person can experience "Christ" as a archetype to heal their inner conscious.

EDIT: Oh... and with dreams, I think Jung had the right idea of using dreams to heal people of their unhealthy psyche (if that's right?) Shaman's would probably relate in that. I think the difference is culture and practices. Some countries don't call their doctors Shamans... but they do basically what a Shaman does.

In New Age, it would be Holistic Healer. Jung, would be dream work, and Shaman spirit work.

All using the conscious and many collective conscious(?) and in some regards spiritual work dealing with religious archetypes (though Jung may not call it that) to heal others psyche.

Good conversation, by the way.




Also, I can't think of anything to replace the word New Age. Metaphysical believers? (Guess keep with New Age, that's fine.)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, and in different cultures or different belief systems, it might be understood as "spirit" or something else, instead of "archetype" and by some name or description instead of "Christ," but it would mean the same (or maybe even actually be the same thing, because it's really what the person is experiencing within themselves, but called by different words).

True.

That's where I'm going next in my thinking. Is what we're describing (this process of healing or integration) a connection with an actual entity from outside oneself, or is it really an inner aspect of oneself?

That's an interesting question, actually. Some people say that it is both outside and inside; that they are healed by the entity (since He is the source of it) and healed by His Spirit (because it is the result; which would be, say, the consciousness of Christ).

I always saw the same result or feelings coming from experiencing Christ (archetype or spirit?) from people of other faiths and those without faith. Which would make the archetypes, archetypes rather than real beings...and instead of each entity giving unique feelings to believers, those feelings or emotions are just part of the collective conscious and can be experienced by any individual depending on what archetype they believe in. (If that makes any sense?)

Whether called "Christ" or some other name; whether understood as an archetype, or a spirit, or something else; perhaps it is really an aspect of one's inner self that a person is envisioning, that is bringing about the healing, or the integration of the mind/soul.

Actually, I believe that is the case. Well said. I used imagining in another post, but I meant envisioning, rats. I'm thinking that when someone says they experience the spirit of an entity, they are really envisioning/praying what the archetype (the entity and/or person) represents. The archetype's representations are what feels the person up with a sense of "highness".

So the entity probably does not exist outside of being an archetype of human emotions.

In psychology, therapist help heal their patients by displaying a sense of calmness, compassion, and motivation (in some cases). The result is that patient feeling appreciated, maybe even loved for who he is, can handle things a bit better by the methods he may be taught, and so forth.

I honestly don't believe religion is any different other than the source and methods of feeling the same emotions.

Rather than a therapist it is an entity, we could say the therapist is a living archetype of compassion, calmness, and patience. A Creator displays the same three characteristics. Both provide healing because that is what the patient or devotee envisions and expects them to be. Kind of a pseudo healing.

Instead of archetype, which sounds so technical, I think people would prefer the word Spirit or Christ (or who/whatever). It doesn't bother me.

If you practice a religion, especially an Abrahamic one, I am honestly--no insult intended--surprised that we can talk about this. I don't meet many believers who can thing of who or what they believe as possible archetypes--probably makes it sound fake rather than technical.

Laters.