TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Neither killed "because of their anti-religious stance".
If that was their motivation in your opinion, then you have a serious gap in your understanding of these people and their communist / authoritarian societies.
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Are atheists arrogant? immoral? angry?
- Thread starter IndigoChild5559
- Start date
Neither killed "because of their anti-religious stance".
If that was their motivation in your opinion, then you have a serious gap in your understanding of these people and their communist / authoritarian societies.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Anecdotal or not (I see you haven’t offered anything by way of evidence) that’s an incoherent argument on so many levels. More holes than the Albert Hall full of colanders.
Did it look good?
That’s a falsehood. They didn’t want “theistic god” believers… they wanted a nation “without a god”.
Augustus
…
The Soviets pretty much did.
If you have a state ideology that demands you eradicate religion and replace it with “scientific materialism”, you create a League of Militant Atheists and you also Implement Atheist 5 Year Plans, you kind of are killing people in the name of atheism.
I’ve no idea why many of my fellow atheists are so fixated on denying there was any link between atheism and the anti-religious activities of Communists.
So what if it did play some part in the matrix of beliefs? It says nothing about atheists in general to note that atheism can be a core part of a violent anti-religious ideology.
If you insist that the ideological goal of violently eradicating religion had nothing to do with the anti-religious stance of many Communists that must require some mighty impressive mental gymnastics.
USSR anti-religious campaign (1921–1928) - Wikipedia
Yet you chose to be dismissive.
You offer even less.
Only your objections.
But without any reasoning.
Perhaps you don't keep up with news.
Israel is dependent upon US sending them billions
of dollars/year, & now missiles for Iron Dome, &
bombs to drop on Palestinians.
You continue to sidestep my post that was so
petulantly responded to, ie, about the bulk of
Christians & Jews supporting the genocide.
The Republicans you mention mostly represent
fundamentalist Christians.
Rather than defending Genocide Joe
as a means of disputing my claim,
why not address the claim itself?
It is most odd that you finally get around
to agreeing with me...but that my claim is
out of touch with reality.
You should proofread before you post.
Some thoughts....
1) In threads & posts, it's simply impossible to
address every issue of the day.
2) This is just more of your tricks to deflect
from my post you responded to.
3) You should bother to read my posts about
Pubs, Trump, & Ukraine. I've castigated them
their pro-Putin anti-Ukraine stance. It risks
encouraging predation around the globe.
4) If you want to criticize someone, you should
first do you homework so that you'll understand
that which you criticize.
I notice that you aren't really disagreeing.
I thought it unnecessary to provide statistics showing
that the majorities in both of the only major political
parties in USA support Israel without limit. And that
Christians & Jews together comprise the majority in
each party, both as voters & as elected politicians in
the federal government...which is the arm supporting
Israel's genocide.
Atheists, the "nones", Muslims, Buddhists, etc aren't
the ones driving USA to support Israel's crimes.
Since unexpectedly that isn't obvious or agreed upon,
I offer....
PRRI Census of American Religion — 2022
The 2022 PRRI Census of American Religion provides unprecedented county-level data on religious identity and diversity in the United States.
And.....
What the 2020 electorate looks like by party, race and ethnicity, age, education and religion
What does the 2020 electorate look like politically, demographically and religiously as the race enters its final days?
www.pewresearch.org
Yes, dismissive of your extreme emotional posts. It is emotional and irrational to blame one man for the overwhelming support of Israel by the West.
I offered my reasoning and you did not rationally respond.
I keep up with the news constantly. Israel designed and makes their own Dome missiles, which are designed to shoot down offensive missiles. The new aid was blocked in Congress. Israel does not need new aide to achieve their goals, They reject any involvement by the USA and others to resolve the conflict.
. . because it is true by far the majority of Christians and Jews support Israel including fundamentalists in the USA. You emotionally attack Biden, and not realizing the support of Israel involves all of the USA and Western Europe, The Republicans do not support the aide to the Palistinians.
Biden cannot change the overwhelming view of Americans support for Israel.
You also neglect the fact of the history of tribal war in Palestine and the fact that Hamas invaded Israel. Nothing here is justify
I nor Biben defend genocide on either side. I have addressed the claim itself.
I do not agree with your emotional one sided view. There is a long history of brutal tribal religious wars in the Middle East and one man Biden cannot put up a hand and change things, I do not selectively blame one man for the brutal tribal war, and the overwhelming support for Israel by the West,
You must include the issue of Ukraine if you want to make accusations of genocide. You have failed to respond to the question of : What can Biden do to change anything in the Hamas war?
Aide to Israel is based on the budget and an overwhelming support of Congress. If Biden tried to change it Congreess would simply over ride him.
You need to start a separate thread on this and deal with it with less emotion.
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In the USA?
Atheists are regularly listed as lower than Muslims in terms of trustability, even in the aftermath of 9.11.
Hard to believe when we're so cuddly.
But I guess there are some people who see us all as arrogant and immoral liars, due to problems with how we describe ourselves in a grammatical sense. Appears nonsensical even as I type it, but there ya go.
Stalin and Mao are both stains on humanity. Also atheists. Atheism isn't proof against a damn thing, near as I can tell, except belief in God.
But when talking specifically about attitudes to groups within the US, atheists rate low. SUPER low.
A source, which has links to further sources. And in general, The Conversation is a good source.
What Harvard’s humanist chaplain shows about atheism in America
Americans are getting more comfortable with new forms of spirituality, but their views of atheists are still complicated.
theconversation.com
It might help explain why we can be prickly as a group when people question out integrity, and basically call us out as liars, even in terms of our own beliefs, and non-beliefs.
I'm unsure how atheism is at all controversial. I can see how people think it's misguided, of course. But I doubt there is anyone who believes in every version of God that's been put forth. If they do, they're an incoherent mess of beliefs, trying too hard to be inclusive.
For some, it seems, taking a position as an agnostic atheist (which I am) is dishonest. Whereas for me, it's simply the most accurate descriptor of what I think that I'm aware of.
Correct, and that's a pretty good reason for any atheist to be an antitheist. How dare they attempt to prop themselves up on the backs of atheists (Abrahamic atheophobia is as old as their scriptures)?
This is a bit dated now (2006):
Researchers concluded: “Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in ‘sharing their vision of American society.’ Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.”
Disturbingly, Atheists are “seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public,” despite being only 3% of the U.S. population according to Dr. Edgell, associate sociology professor and the lead researcher in the project.
A significant finding of the new study is that despite growing acceptance and tolerance of different groups within the religious community, Atheists are viewed as outsiders, “others,” who do not share a common community vision. “What matters for public acceptance of atheists — and figures strongly into private acceptance as well — are beliefs about the appropriate relationship between church and state and about religion’s role in underpinning society’s moral order, as measured by our item on whether society’s standards of right and wrong should be based on God’s laws.” The study found that conservative Protestants especially rejected the “possibility of a secular basis for a good society.” This, more than anything else, may be the driving factor placing Atheists outside the cultural mainstream in the minds of nearly a majority of Americans.
Again, how dare they. As you can see, I don't mind giving a little of the same back. Why shouldn't every atheist declaim these people as loudly as they can?
I was called "religiophobic" and a hater on another thread recently. I explained that it's not hatred, but contempt, and not for all religion - just those that target groups like atheists and gays, who they claim to love, and marginalize and demonize them making their lives more difficult and more dangerous. How dare they?
I notice that a popular way to insult people
is to say they're "emotional". This was once
a tactic to use solely against women. Now
men are fair game too for that vapid barb.
There you go again.
Have you still not noticed that I also blame
Congress & the voters? You should work
on becoming more observant.
I didn't see anything I'd call "reasoning".
Perhaps you need to broaden your sources.
There you go again with "emotional".
Note that I'm not responding with words that
come to mind, eg, "hebetude", "cluelessness",
"disorganized mind", "crotchelfester".
Some thoughts shouldn't be expressed.
Back to defending Biden again.
But he has no intention of changing views
of unconditional support for Israel's genocide.
He's the head cheerleader & purveyor of death.
You neglect information that would subordinate
your claim. This is to defend genocide of Muslims.
So you say.
But your posts are anti-Palestinian,
anti-Muslim, & pro-Israel.
And Hamas is incapable of genocide,
being the far far weaker of the two
parties to this "war".
There you go again.
You once argued that I'm a creationist.
(That says much about your perspicacity.)
Do you know think I'm a woman?
Bless your heart.
<pats on head>
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Missing the point on purpose?
No, it's not.
There is no logical pathway from "I don't believe in a god" to "therefor let's go kill a bunch of people".
No. They wanted a nation where they were the gods.
Where the "state" or the despot was the highest authority. If subjects were going to worshop anything, it was to be the state and / or despot.
Their policies came from them wanting absolute authority and absolute power. This is the reasons why they went after theists, who tend to put their god in a higher position of power and authority then the despote or state. Theists weren't the only target off course. Anyone who they felt threatened their position of absolute authority and power, was a target.
That's what motivated them. Their prosecution of theists wasn't so much a "militant atheist" thing as it was a "get rid of the competition" type thing.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
It sounds to me that these killings are rather in the name of that state ideology.........................
Truth matters. Atheism wasn't their motivation. That "state ideology" was.
I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is that the "anti-religious" stance comes forward not from there mere atheism. It comes forward from a specific state ideology, incompatible with theism. And in such authoritarian systems, anything that isn't compatible is to be destroyed.
I'm not denying anything. I'm merely objecting to the misleading statement that "atheism was their motivation".
It wasn't. State ideology was.
And yet, religion survived. And in Russia it came
back with a vengeance, ie, Putin attacking Ukraine
with the church's blessing. And his sights are set
on more neighbors. Go Christianity!
And look what even more extreme theocratic
regimes do, eg, Islamic countries, Israel.
Oppression & killing in the name of this or
that god are rampant.
Atheism doesn't command that I kill anyone.
(It doesn't command anything.)
Augustus
…
God doesn’t exist.
People believing in god causes immeasurable social harm.
Therefore eradicating god beliefs by any means necessary is morally desirable.
That is a perfectly logical pathway. 99.99% of atheists don’t follow that path, but 99.99% of theists don’t become jihadis.
Beliefs don’t exist in a vacuum. If people disbelieve in god, many of them will make judgements about god beliefs.
This has consequences in the real world.
And the truth was that atheism was a core part of that ideology.
Generic theism doesn’t cause any harms either, but it would be inane to consider jihadism had nothing to do with belief in God.
No belief exists in a vacuum, so truth demands we accept there is indeed some connection between Atheist 5 Year Plans and atheism.
Anti-religious views were a motivating factor in the violence.
Atheism was certainly part of their motivation though, would you agree with that?
We can accept that neither theism or atheism alone cause anyone to do anything at all, but, again, no one’s theism or atheism exists in a vacuum. Retreating to such a layer of abstraction doesn’t much help us to understand real world human thoughts and motivations.
If you want to accept that god beliefs can cause problems as part of a broader ideology, then the belief gods don’t exist can also cause problems as part of a broader ideology.
Would you agree that both theism and atheism can play a role in underpinning violent ideologies?
Take any murderous regime.....Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot,
Taliban, Israel. Each will have some core that relates to
religion, eg, atheism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam.
Any regime can pursue evil goals. Neither atheism nor
religion can prevent leaders & societies from this.
But atheism is different in one significant way, if
a person isn't inclined to murder, there is no scripture
commanding them to commit it. Religion, however,
can motivate good people to do evil things.
Augustus
…
You are comparing apples to oranges.
Atheism is not an ideology, but all atheists have an ideology.
Being irreligious just means you have an irreligious ideology instead of a religious one.
There is no intrinsic benefit to this, it entirely depends on the ideology you adopt.
Plenty of communists were good people who sacrificed their own comfort for “the greater good” all while doing evil things.
Good people can do evil things for all kinds of reasons: religion, ideology, family, pressure, fear, the idea they are “objectively correct”, etc.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Nice try, but no cigare.
The motivation here, once again, is not mere non-belief in god claims.
It is whatever reasoing underpins the belief that religion must be eradicated and / or that people shouldn't have freedom of beliefs.
The difference is that there is a direct link between a jihadi's god beliefs and his violence as a jihadi.
While there is no such direct link between atheism and violence against theists in countries like the USSR. The link there is between the state ideology and the violence.
Their more nonbelief isn't what motivated the violence.
Yes, anti-religious views.
Mere non-belief isn't an anti- view.
The state ideology was, though
I would not.
Ow I very much disagree.
Unlike atheism, theism comes with sets of instructions on how to live, declaration of what it deems right and wrong, instructions on what one should do in the face of such rights or wrongs, etc.
This collection of instructions, and in some cases actual commandments, most definitely can directly and by itself cause people to do all kinds of things.
Atheism doesn't come with such instructions, commandments or declarations. So whatever a person who happens to be atheist does, that person will have found his motivation somewhere in a worldview or ideology that DOES lean itself to such instructions, commandments and declarations.
Such beliefs is what is going to underpin your reasoning, justification for your actions.
"Atheism" simply can not provide such.
First, this went from mere non-belief of a claim to positively believing the opposite claim - which is not the same thing.
Secondly, it depends on how the problems are caused, now doesn't it?
The way I consider god beliefs to cause problems, when they do, is when the beliefs include gods (= ultimate authorities) that make faith-based, unreasoned, bare declarations about right and wrong, about how to live, about the world,.... And even then it depends what the instructions / declarations are.
But if the entire idea is that gods are unquestionable moral authorities and if they ask you to do something, the only moral thing to do is to obbey, then this will potentially cause problems. That's when otherwise sensible people press a button in a crowded market to detonate their suicide vest. It's when people get stoned to death for having sex. It's when gay people are hanged, or otherwise discriminated against or shunned or what-have-you, simply for being gay. It's when people aren't allowed to get the medical aid they need "cause blood transfusions are of the devil" or whatever.
This is the potential danger I see in god beliefs.
And yes, fortunately most people tend to have a proper moral compass and are reasonable enough to cherry pick there religion to ignore those nasty bits, or they "explain it away" with some humanisticly inspired "interpretation" of the texts, or by saying that this was from another time and it doesn't apply for us today or whatever excuse they come up with.
Having said all that....
The above is why I said that there is, at least potentially, a direct causal link between god beliefs and nasty behavior.
The same can not be said about atheism. Simply because atheism doesn't meet any of the criteria required to culminate in such: it provides no instructions on how to live, it provides no declarations on right and wrong,... it is a single position on a single issue. Whatever people wish to add to that, necessarily comes from other sources.
No.
It is suitable for both when it involves an emtional irrational rant.
I am very observant, the problem is you use Biden as a scapegoat.
Blinded by emotion.
The problem of bradening sources is yours.
I do not support it, but it is the overwhelming support of Christians and Jews that determine the support of Israel in the West, and the resulting Islam phobia in the West.
. . . because your resorting to an emotional rant.
No I do not defend Biden, but like you I do not use him as a scapegoat
No I do not and never have defended the genocide, Your emotional irrational accusations continue without end.
False emotional accusations continue . . . I made no anti-Palestinian, anti-Muslims nor pro Israel statements.
You argue emotionally and irrationally like a Creationist.
No
Failure to respond to the question. The emotional insults continue.
One of the symptoms of an emotional rant is to make unfounded personal accusations, and have done it several times.
Your rants have a distinct similarity to @PureX
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