Are atheists irrational?

[Valjean]

You have to get specific and explain what irrationalities you are encountering.

A theist would view an atheist as irrational and vice versa. Opposing views tend to label others as the problem, right?

But atheism isn't a "view." It's a lack of a view.
"Rational" only makes sense when referring to a specific idea. Atheism isn't an idea.

 

[Notanumber]

The whole reason I left religion is to get away from this and I left one of the most ideological religions possible.

Would you mind telling us how you managed to do this?

If you were born a Muslim and lived in a Muslim community, it must have been very difficult to leave the religion/ideology.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Atheism isn't a response to anything. You don't need to be aware of God to lack a belief in Him. If no-one ever mentioned the concept of God then I expect everyone would be an atheist.

Do you believe in the eight-eyed hexapoids of Merak four? Probably not -- (I just made them up).
Is your a-hexapoidism a response to the concept of hexapoids, or did you lack a belief before I mentioned them?
I'll bet you've always been an a-hexapoidist.

Believing in something you have no evidence of is irrational.
Not believing in something you have no evidence of is rational.

Theists believe in something they have no evidence of.
Atheists lack belief in something they have no evidence of.
So which is the rational position?

Of course atheism is a response. The term, definition itself would never cross anyone's mind had it not started from an initial challenge by theists. Its simply not the other way around.

Believing in something you have no evidence of is irrational.
Not believing in something you have no evidence of is rational.

?

 

[Kirran]

You do seem to have come across some of the worst of the bunch of atheists, and of liberals too. Both groups seem to be generally better than you describe them as based on your own experiences, @Sha'irullah. Although yeah, there's no especial reason an atheist would be more rational or collected than any other human being.

 

[Twilight Hue]

But atheism isn't a "view." It's a lack of a view.
"Rational" only makes sense when referring to a specific idea. Atheism isn't an idea.

I agree with this.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Would you mind telling us how you managed to do this?

If you were born a Muslim and lived in a Muslim community, it must have been very difficult to leave the religion/ideology.

I was not born into an Islamic country nor was I born a Muslim. I happen to live close to a very big Islamic community which is how I became curious about the religion. Obviously my expectations were different coming into the religion and on top of this I was never a very interested Christian growing up.

It is the only religion I ever believed and I would cry while reading the Qur'an as it was so impactful to me. I was young and thought I would find the answers of the cosmos when I did but I was a teen at this point so my naivety was undoubtedly strong.

 

[Notanumber]

I was not born into an Islamic country nor was I born a Muslim. I happen to live close to a very big Islamic community which is how I became curious about the religion. Obviously my expectations were different coming into the religion and on top of this I was never a very interested Christian growing up.

It is the only religion I ever believed and I would cry while reading the Qur'an as it was so impactful to me. I was young and thought I would find the answers of the cosmos when I did but I was a teen at this point so my naivety was undoubtedly strong.

Thank you for answering.

I assumed that you lived in a Western country but in a Muslim community.

How did you join Islam, was it through attending a Mosque or was it less formal than that?

How seriously did you take it (praying five times a day, attending the Mosque and Ramadan)?

What happened when you left Islam?

Did you have to move away from the community?

I am guessing that someone in your situation might be able to leave Islam without repercussions but it would be more problematical for someone that was born and brought up in a Muslim community.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is IMO a serious mistake to expect much of theism. And for similar reasons, but with very different consequences, it is also a significant mistake to expect much of atheism.

All that talk about gods and belief in gods only gets in the way of the stuff that matters.

 

[Valjean]

Of course atheism is a response. The term, definition itself would never cross anyone's mind had it not started from an initial challenge by theists. Its simply not the other way around.

You're definition is utilitarian. Most of us godless heathens define it more conceptually; more philosophically. Granted, without a theism to lack belief in, the term would be pretty useless, but it's still a valid concept, if only theoretically.

To the Walpiri of Australia, who's vocabulary of numeracy amounted to "One, two, many," would ten not still be a valid, albeit useless, concept?
If a tribe in the Amazon had never encountered any concepts of God, would they not be atheists -- if only by default?
Atheism is the default position. We're born atheist and remain so till we choose to adopt a God concept. The designation might not be useful, but it's apt.

 

[Kirran]

You're definition is utilitarian. Most of us godless heathens define it more conceptually; more philosophically. Granted, without a theism to lack belief in the term would be pretty useless, but it's still a valid concept, if only theoretically.

To the Walpiri of Australia, who's vocabulary of numeracy amounted to "One, two, many," would ten not still be a valid, albeit useless, concept?
If a tribe in the Amazon had never encountered any concepts of God, would they not be atheists -- if only by default?
Atheism is the default position. We're born atheist and remain so till we choose to adopt a God concept. The designation might not be useful, but it's apt.

What about people who have a relationship with God without having a God concept?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Thank you for answering.

I assumed that you lived in a Western country but in a Muslim community.

How did you join Islam, was it through attending a Mosque or was it less formal than that?

How seriously did you take it (praying five times a day, attending the Mosque and Ramadan)?

What happened when you left Islam?

Did you have to move away from the community?

I am guessing that someone in your situation might be able to leave Islam without repercussions but it would be more problematical for someone that was born and brought up in a Muslim community.

I joined by meeting a girl who convinced me.

I prayed five times a day. Didn't eat pork, didnt sleep on my stomach, studied Qur'an and learned Arabic along with profound study in Islamic philosophy and Maliki and Hanafi fiqh(religious law).

Nothing happened when I left as it was easy to disappear and I never showed me face around that area anymore. I also never told my parents. I was homeschooled and my education was whatever I wanted it to be. So a lot of free time obviously.

 

[Notanumber]

Nothing happened when I left as it was easy to disappear and I never showed me face around that area anymore.

I suspected that that would be the case.

I cannot see how anyone born and brought up in a Muslim community could leave Islam without leaving the Muslim community.

Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Ponder This]

Atheism isn't a response to anything. You don't need to be aware of God to lack a belief in Him. If no-one ever mentioned the concept of God then I expect everyone would be an atheist.

Do you believe in the eight-eyed hexapoids of Merak four? Probably not -- (I just made them up).
Is your a-hexapoidism a response to the concept of hexapoids, or did you lack a belief before I mentioned them?
I'll bet you've always been an a-hexapoidist.

Believing in something you have no evidence of is irrational.
Not believing in something you have no evidence of is rational.

Theists believe in something they have no evidence of.
Atheists lack belief in something they have no evidence of.
So which is the rational position?

I think the problem with is that two different ideas are conflated in a single word: atheism.
atheism can refer either to a lack of belief OR a disbelief

This is a subtle but significant distinction.
The absence of an idea leaves nothing to accept or reject (believe or disbelieve), but the presence of an idea gives something to accept or reject (believe or disbelieve).

So if you lack belief in a god or gods (also known as weak atheism), then you aren't explicitly asserting that there are none.
Therefore, weak atheism is not a response to theism.

But if you have a disbelief in a god or gods (also known as strong atheism), then you have taken the extra step to explicitly deny.
Therefore, strong atheism is a response to theism.

In the case of the hexapoids, I might respond that I had never thought about hexapoids before and therefore had no occasion to believe or disbelieve in their existence and that now that you have mentioned them I can say that I don't have a belief that they exist (which doesn't mean that I believe that they do not exist). I might argue that just because you made them up, doesn't mean they don't actually exist somewhere.

But I could also respond, instead, that I think the notion of hexapoids is absurd and that I don't simply lack a belief in their existence, but that I actually believe that they do not exist. I might claim that your statement that you "just made them up" is sufficient proof that they cannot possibly exist.

So since atheism is a word that has multiple meanings, it is pointless to discuss whether or not atheism is a response to theism without first indicating which meaning you are using.

So what about the problem put forth in the OP?
He thought atheism was rational but fells that a lot of atheists are irrational.

Atheists are like everyone else, I am not sure why you would expect any different.

The question then becomes: In what way are they "like everyone else"?

 

[Altfish]

If atheists are rational then why are they so adamant on moral principles? They laugh at those who value marriage, the sanctity of life, or actual gender yet are hellbent on the most silliest of issues like the word god being on money.

NO WE DON'T!!
We have great respect for marriage, anything that recognises long lasting love and friendship is good. I am married. The difference is that we have a wider definition of marriage than many theists.
Atheists because we know this is our only life treasurer it more than theists who hope for a better life when they die. We are not expecting that, We also treasure the pregnant woman and respect her decision as a living person above that of a partially formed embryo. We aren't pro-abortion we are pro-choice.
Gender, well I'm male, my wife is female but who cares, if someone is in between that is fine. I'd trust them with my child more than a frustrated catholic priest.
We are wound up about god(s) because of the harm they cause by ruining the best minds into thinking irrational thought.

Read about non-believers before you start assuming what we believe.

 

[bobhikes]

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

In any group there are good and bad people you best bet is to be satisfied with yourself and use labels only for convenience not for identity.

If anyone asks me what I believe, I just explain it. If I give them any label it doesn't justify me and they will have there own idea of what it means.

The only reason you need to label yourself is to participate in the DIR's. Why do you want to limit yourself to people that want to be labeled.

 

[Revoltingest]

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

Don't judge a perspective by its adherents.
It helps not to think about bad examples.
(I avoid mirrors.)
Humans are inherently irrational....only the degree varies.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If theism was never introduced and no one ever mentioned the concept of God first, would atheism even be around ?
See the irrationality?

How could atheism not be a response?

We were atheists before we were theists both as a species and individually:

"All children are born atheist. They have no idea of God" - Baron d'Holbach

To my recollection, my parents never spoke to me about any gods, and we didn't do the things characteristic of theistic families such as pray at meals, read holy books, or attend weekly gatherings. We had no extra respect or disrespect for clergy, and no concepts such as sin or blasphemy in our consciousness. We were (and are) atheists.

I don't see a response to theism there. There wasn't really much acknowledgement that it existed. Eventually, theists came along and try to talk me into joining their religions. I said, "No thank you." That might have been my first response to theism.

You might be thinking linguistically rather than ideologically.

There are things that came earlier but were named later, such as acoustic guitars. Before the advent of electric guitars, there were just guitars. They were all acoustic and there was no more need to identify them as acoustic than to identify them as strung or tunable. Likewise with snow skiing and Classic Coke, which were skiing and Coke before water skiing and New Coke came along. Obviously, Word War I didn't get that name until there was a World War II.

Atheism and theism have a similar relationship. Atheism is older than theism, although the word and even the concept may be newer.

This is not the case with antitheism, which is definitely a reaction to theism. Whereas atheism exists with or without theism in the world, and whether it has a name or not, theism must precede antitheism.

Do you disagree with any of that?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

I admit I am hanging out with the young ones, ages 20-30. But I have met my fair share of older imbeciles but most of these encounters are online and obviously online it gets worst. Hell I have had people deny me of my atheism many times before online and claim I was a theist in disguise for questioning the Democratic party.

Who would have guessed being a leftist was mandatory for not believing in a god. I would rationalize it as the opposite but so much for that hypothesis.

There is a bewildering number of Atheist types too. If I am debating an atheist I ask them to define their atheism and ask if they want me to describe my Christian worldview and what I feel Christianity entails. There are even more different types of religions and sub-religions and denominations than types of atheists! In any case getting those out of the way often saves pages of debate wasted on arguing about definitions...Good luck on your search for a world view that you can feel peaceful and sated ~

God bless our forum !

; { >

 

[Samael_Khan]

Everybody is irrational to a certain extent.

Also there are many different people in the world with many different ideologies or lack there of. People become atheist or theist for both emotional and what they see as reasonable and rational reasons. Because people are individuals and have walked different paths in life then I don't think we can make blanket statements such as atheists are irrational etc. We should regard each persons viewpoint on the world and how they got there based on listening to their individual explanation.

I don't think it is wise to come to conclusions about individuals based on assumptions.

I think you should rather just accept that those atheists that you encountered are irrational based on their communication with you about viewpoints. Don't class ALL atheists as irrational because none of us have met all the atheists in the world.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I for example am not supportive of abortion although if somebody pays for it out of their own money I am fine with it. I do not believe it is a human right that should be paid for.

This alone was an issue that I was called a Christian for.

I also do not accept these redefining of gender considering its classical use in biology. This is something that has resulted in me being either shunned or compared to Hitler.

I also called religion a natural part of human existence and I expressed my enjoyment of Islamic philosophy and I was repeatedly called a questioning atheist or closeted Muslim.


I actually only have one atheist friend who either shares my views or accepts them. We disagree on veganism and cultural appropriation and that is about it.

How often have these things happened to you? Have they happened on this forum?