Are Christians afraid to PRUNE?

[Archer]

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be joined to unbelievers. What do right and wrong have in common? Can light and darkness be friends? 15 How can Christ and Satan agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 How can the temple of the true God and the statues of other gods agree? We are the temple of the living God. God has said, "I will live with them. I will walk among them. I will be their God. And they will be my people. 17 "So come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch anything that is not pure and clean. Then I will receive you." 18 "I will be your Father. You will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord who rules over all."

I honestly feel this addresses the situation dealing with a lot of people. Remember we are the supposed believers and above all we are to think of Christ and his church. The members and new believers must be made to conform and we must mold them to His will through ours, which should be in Him. They chose the way and our duty is to guide not change the truth.

By accepting some people into our lives that do not bear fruit in hopes that they will; we may cause others to lose their way and ruin our witness. This is a contentious issue but there is also no Biblical foundation to change. A person who comes into the fold changes, the fold does not change for them.

If we examine the history of the church we can see the devolution and moving away from what is written. We see Biblical text being replaced with man’s interpretation that many times contradicts the message of the Bible. We see many examples of this today that have evolved from a simple thing like a way of dressing or even a piercing. The generations begin to accept these things.

Please consider:
2 Peter 2
False Teachers Will Be Destroyed
1 But there were also false prophets among the people. In the same way there will be false teachers among you. In secret they will bring in teachings that will destroy you. They will even turn against the Lord and Master who died to save them. His death paid for their sins. They will quickly destroy themselves. 2 Many people will follow their shameful ways. They will give the way of truth a bad name.
3 Those teachers are never satisfied. They want to get something out of you. So they make up stories to take advantage of you. They have been under a sentence of death for a long time. The One who will destroy them has not been sleeping.
4 God did not spare angels when they sinned. Instead, he sent them to hell. He put them in dark prisons. He will keep them there until he judges them. 5 God did not spare the world's ungodly people long ago. He brought the flood on them. But Noah preached about the right way to live. God kept him safe. He also saved seven others. 6 God judged the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. He burned them to ashes. He made them an example of what is going to happen to ungodly people.

I believe that hell will be full of Preachers and teachers that are trying to conform to the world. Don’t become one of them. Guard yourself and try to remain pure in his word, do not be of this world and scrutinize everything you are taught to find the truth. If it is there, praise God with prayers of thanks giving for granting the teacher wisdom. If it is not truth; turn to the Bible which He has provided and find the truth and do not take things out of context as so many have, but study the word and let the Bible interpret itself. Find other examples in the Bible and consider the setting and the audience. I feel that to not seek the wisdom God has provided makes one into a false teacher and condemns oneself to hellfire.

There are many who are Christians by choice. They have chosen to go to Church and have no real faith, this is the GREAT majority. They refuse to hear the truth and only want to believe what they think needs to be and not what is. They are simply in a social club that is accepting members and will even ignore its own rule book to get some extra cash.

The point of this post and thread are to simply get the opinions of others.

Are Pastors and Churches afraid to prune? Do they not see what has happened?

 

[Archer]

No opinions on this? Interesting. We argue the things that are related and many defend what is not true, yet nobody cares to agree or disagree with this.

 

[wordmagnifiedabovenames]

Interesting thoughts.

Firstly, I'd point out that the word translated "cuts off" in John 15 actually means "lift up." That is, if someone is in Christ but not producing fruit, God will lift them up, out of the mud, into the sunlight as it were, to give them more opportunity of spiritual nourishment so that they can produce fruit.

Secondly, the branches that are producing fruit are "pruned," so that they can produce more fruit. Pruning is different to destroying. These branches that produce fruit are not cut off and destroyed, but rather they are made so that they can produce even more fruit.
The branches that produce no fruit and get burnt are the ones that are not abiding in Christ to begin with. The other ones that get thrown into the fire are the hewn down trees (as opposed to branches) that are producing bad fruit (Matthew 7) as opposed to branches that are producing no fruit (John 15.)

However I think it's important to remember that God is the one who decides who is producing fruit and who isn't and He is the one who prunes (He is the "gardener," so whether Christians are afraid to prune or not isn't really a factor.) God is the gardener, not church leaders, because only God knows a person's heart.

I believe that hell will be full of Preachers and teachers that are trying to conform to the world.

You're probably right: there are going to be lots of people in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven (Matthew 7.)

...a social club that is accepting members and will even ignore its own rule book to get some extra cash.

I don't have enough exposure to enough churches to comment on that.

 

[Archer]

Interesting thoughts.

Firstly, I'd point out that the word translated "cuts off" in John 15 actually means "lift up." That is, if someone is in Christ but not producing fruit, God will lift them up, out of the mud, into the sunlight as it were, to give them more opportunity of spiritual nourishment so that they can produce fruit.

Secondly, the branches that are producing fruit are "pruned," so that they can produce more fruit. Pruning is different to destroying. These branches that produce fruit are not cut off and destroyed, but rather they are made so that they can produce even more fruit.
The branches that produce no fruit and get burnt are the ones that are not abiding in Christ to begin with. The other ones that get thrown into the fire are the hewn down trees (as opposed to branches) that are producing bad fruit (Matthew 7) as opposed to branches that are producing no fruit (John 15.)

However I think it's important to remember that God is the one who decides who is producing fruit and who isn't and He is the one who prunes (He is the "gardener," so whether Christians are afraid to prune or not isn't really a factor.) God is the gardener, not church leaders, because only God knows a person's heart.


You're probably right: there are going to be lots of people in Hell who thought they were going to Heaven (Matthew 7.)


I don't have enough exposure to enough churches to comment on that.

Thank you for the corrections to the OP the message is the same but again you are correct. Pruning in and of itself is a little of both. I prune my Mars grape vine so that it will produce more and in the pruning process dead is removed.

Below is WIKI on pruning and it is also in line with the way I see it:
Pruning is a horticultural practice involving the selective removal of parts of a plant, such as branches, buds, or roots. Reasons to prune plants include deadwood removal, shaping (by controlling or directing growth), improving or maintaining health, reducing risk from falling branches, preparing nursery specimens for transplanting, and both harvesting and increasing the yield or quality of flowers and fruits. The practice entails targeted removal of diseased, damaged, dead, non-productive, structurally unsound, or otherwise unwanted tissue from crop and landscape plants. Specialized pruning practices may be applied to certain plants, such as roses, fruit trees, and grapevines. Different pruning techniques may be deployed on herbaceous plants than those used on perennial woody plants. Hedges, by design, are usually (but not exclusively) maintained by hedge trimming, rather than by pruning.

Going to King James for which I have strong numbers for I come up with a complete greek translation and definition for life up:
G142
αἴρω
airō
ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

I think the true meaning is in the word expiate here which can be seen two ways:

1 obsolete : to put an end to
2 a : to extinguish the guilt incurred by
b : to make amends for <permission to expiate their offences by their assiduous labours — Francis Bacon>


Now going by the obsolete meaning it means one thing but again which meaning? For meaning I must go into the context of the message, audience and time frame.

Though it means lift up in part in entirety and context it means another.

Words are a funny thing; take nice for example:


Definition of NICE

1 obsolete a : wanton, dissolute b : coy, reticent

2a : showing fastidious or finicky tastes : particular <too nice a palate to enjoy junk food> b : exacting in requirements or standards : punctilious <a nice code of honor>

3: possessing, marked by, or demanding great or excessive precision and delicacy <nice measurements>

4 obsolete : trivial

5 a : pleasing, agreeable <a nice time> <a nice person> b : well-executed <nice shot> c : appropriate, fitting <not a nice word for a formal occasion>

6
a : socially acceptable : well-bred <from a nice family> b : virtuous, respectable <was taught that nice girls don't do that>

7
: polite, kind <that's nice of you to say>

— nice adverb
— nice·ly adverb
— nice·ness noun

So again I must defer to context.

 

[ChristineES]

The only person I prune is myself. If I am doing something and practicing something that is not good for my faith then I need to prune it away. The same would go for all of us who follow Jesus and His commands. It isn't our job to judge others. We can counsel others if we are elders, but I am not an elder yet.

 

[Archer]

The only person I prune is myself. If I am doing something and practicing something that is not good for my faith then I need to prune it away. The same would go for all of us who follow Jesus and His commands. It isn't our job to judge others. We can counsel others if we are elders, but I am not an elder yet.

I do not necessarily disagree but it is our duty to bring it to their attention and many times it is their inaction or blatant disregard for scripture that is the root of the problem. Remember I am not talking about judging. I am speaking of removing the obvious and Paul told us:

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be joined to unbelievers. What do right and wrong have in common? Can light and darkness be friends? 15 How can Christ and Satan agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 How can the temple of the true God and the statues of other gods agree? We are the temple of the living God. God has said, "I will live with them. I will walk among them. I will be their God. And they will be my people. 17 "So come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch anything that is not pure and clean. Then I will receive you." 18 "I will be your Father. You will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord who rules over all."

So if we fellowship with these people do we ruin our witness and corrupt the church? Everyone is welcome but if you bring the world with you and refuse to conform and let it go, at least in Church, then you should be welcomed to leave.

 

[Civil Shephard]

I read the first post and I've noted from many of your posts that you are very concerned about seeking Wisdom from God at his word. While I share this concern I think I've been in so many scriptural conversations where everyone has this and that scripture to add to any given point that I find it all somewhat disconcerting after awhile. For my part I think the words Jesus spoke that you reference in the title has a very subtle and yet immortal point. And that is that Jesus does the pruning not us. Some sin is immediately evident while others come to light later as Paul points out somewhere. To me I've had to make the point that unless those of my brothers and sisters who've felt strongly about making some scriptural point of correctness are about to walk on water or raise someone from the dead we might do well to simply settle down and say the Lords prayer before we all go home and sleep off this or that sharp point of contention. I've found that like a teenager I wanted so badly to be right about this or that issue that the other persons feelings became a secondary concern. At such times I've found pride motivating my attempts at correcting this or that point of concern.

I believe it's not as tricky as all that though. Just grab a brother and go to any local park with a loaf of bread and some bologna and there will be conversation enough of things we can all agree on and someone may actually find the Spirit and Life of Jesus as they turn to the greatest teacher there ever was. But with all that I must agree that like good soldiers we should pay attention to detail. And yet we know the greatest detail is to come to the kingdom of heaven as little children and to remain poor in spirit when dealing with one another. Being honest and friendly to me is the highest form of worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth. Just ask the woman at the well with 5 husbands who has no husband.