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Are God Concepts Incoherent?

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm starting this thread as a jumping-off point from a discussion that @blü 2 and I have been having here:

Why are you an Atheist?

Blu said:

This is the point that I keep coming back to. God is not a something because God has no definition appropriate to a something. The concept of a real God is incoherent, incapable of denoting anything real because it's meaningless.

If I understand the point correctly, the argument is that anything real, anything that exists, has defining features that we can identify if we look out in the world for them - presumably physical features. Since God is generally proposed to be non-physical, it seems incoherent to say God(s) "exist(s)" as anything more than a concept in our minds.

So, if you believe in God(s), in what sense does he "exist?" What defining features could we identify her/him/it/they by? Is it coherent to say that something non-physical exists outside our minds?

Particularly interested in thoughts from @atanu, @PureX, and @Vouthon, but all are welcome to participate.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
He exists in the exact form of all statements about He, a human being male, as a scientist thinking all concepts.

Then when you claim HE exists outside of his own person it is because EXTRA radiation, the ability to be attacked/recorded was caused.

Extra radiation took his owned bodily use of water and oxygen and microbial mass, that his own life body was using, and removed it from his presence of life.

And made an atmospheric recording with it. So then he believed he was outside of his own HE male self, as the thinker about all conditions for science/radiation and how to convert....for never did he personally think that his self presence would be lost.

For if you applied rational self advice, he was looking at the Earth stone mountain de materialization/disintegration by UFO o metal mass.....not his own self.

How do you know a condition really in life?

The truth of what he learnt, he was changed by it. Where and how a human being as a male group said EVIL existed...for he changed self by it harming him.

For you cannot discuss self relativity unless a condition for change of self was applied to cause you to make a discussion of outside of your own self.....as a self.

Where the fake concept of teaching self, that the self was evil first, which is just a human reasoning to state, the first human beings innocent, learnt about evil because it changed them bodily.

And the false teachings about self being evil was always false.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Whatever else is the case, I think it is obvious that the word "existence" means different things when applied to physical things than it does when applied to at least some spiritual things. This can be shown if one asks "How do I know x exists?" because that question not only gives us a direct answer (at least in theory) but it also indirectly answers what we mean by "exists".

In other words, the operational meaning of the word "existence" varies depending on whether one is talking about material or immaterial, physical or spiritual, things.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm starting this thread as a jumping-off point from a discussion that @blü 2 and I have been having here:

Why are you an Atheist?

Blu said:

This is the point that I keep coming back to. God is not a something because God has no definition appropriate to a something. The concept of a real God is incoherent, incapable of denoting anything real because it's meaningless.​

If I understand the point correctly, the argument is that anything real, anything that exists, has defining features that we can identify if we look out in the world for them - presumably physical features. Since God is generally proposed to be non-physical, it seems incoherent to say God(s) "exist(s)" as anything more than a concept in our minds.
Yes, if God is real then God exists in nature, hence has a description appropriate to a natural thing. If God exists only in the mentation of the individual, as a concept or thing imagined, then God is not real.

AND (accordingly) there is no definition / description of God appropriate to a real being.

If anyone disagrees, I'd be interested to see it, since so far no one's had one to show.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Whatever else is the case, I think it is obvious that the word "existence" means different things when applied to physical things than it does when applied to at least some spiritual things. This can be shown if one asks "How do I know x exists?" because that question not only gives us a direct answer (at least in theory) but it also indirectly answers what we mean by "exists".

In other words, the operational meaning of the word "existence" varies depending on whether one is talking about material or immaterial, physical or spiritual, things.
If a male as a human says HE and I am God, then he would infer a spiritual concept, for he cannot make a claim that he is anything other than a bio human life with about 100 years of personal life. Cosmological information when thought upon, science places a huge value of numbers about its age.

So science knows we do not own what science would want a God to own.

Why the Bible defined the mentality that would destroy anything if they thought self was a power of God for incorrect material living conditions. To gain for self.

God the stories of always taught that you own no gain if you try to obtain God, all you receive is losses.

Why the Bible stated, no man is God, for it was males/man that thought the concepts about the planet/stone/God for his machine...and attacked self.

Therefore Satanism, being science said I conjured the spirit and it was evil.

So males then said as God reacted and recorded my life it made God evil and my own life evil. And he lied. God was natural and not reacting and no one gave him permission except his own selves to do science, as the act of.

Why science claims I am allowed, when science also claims no you are not.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I'm starting this thread as a jumping-off point from a discussion that @blü 2 and I have been having here:

Why are you an Atheist?

Blu said:



If I understand the point correctly, the argument is that anything real, anything that exists, has defining features that we can identify if we look out in the world for them - presumably physical features. Since God is generally proposed to be non-physical, it seems incoherent to say God(s) "exist(s)" as anything more than a concept in our minds.

So, if you believe in God(s), in what sense does he "exist?" What defining features could we identify her/him/it/they by? Is it coherent to say that something non-physical exists outside our minds?

Particularly interested in thoughts from @atanu, @PureX, and @Vouthon, but all are welcome to participate.
Ehh, i have posted my concept of god/gods and they are perfectly coherent. That i am an atheist is however consequence of the fact that i do not believe such an entity does exist.

Regarding existence, i think it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that non-physical things exist apart from our minds.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
God cannot be seen or his nature fully understood by us. The human capacity to understand no matter how great lacks the capability.

He is definitely real. There is one scripture I like to use to explain him:

"The One who made the ear, can he not hear?
The One who formed the eye, can he not see?"
-Psalm 94:9.

We are made in God's image. Obviously not physically. As he is not confined to the physical realm. He in fact made the physical realm and all that is in it and the 4 fundamental laws that control it. So he is not controlled by physics, rather he is the originator of physics. We have the capacity to reason, to love, to understand what justice is and ask for it, in this we are formed in the image of God, unlike unreasoning animals that do not have the capacity.

Just as we can see and hear, just as we have self-awareness, just as we have ability to love, thus God infinitely more is aware of his own existence, he can see and hear. But his ability to see and hear are beyond what we can comprehend as he is not confined to human eyes or ears. We give attention to the earth and things in the earth. He gives attention to the entire spirit realm beyond the universe, he gives attention to the hundreds of billions of galaxies each with their hundreds of billions of stars, and yes he even gives attention to the very minuscule spec of dust called earth and humans on it. But we are not all that his attention is given to. We are but a very small spec to him.

A Bible verse humbly explains our existence in comparison to him:

"When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,
The moon and the stars that you have prepared,
What is mortal man that you keep him in mind,
And a son of man that you take care of him?"
-Psalm 8:3, 4.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well given our nature as physical beings, it would stand to reason there would have to be some point of physical type contact for a person to acknowledge that a god is there.

The thing is, no one can adequately identify what that point of contact is to back up their claims.

The whole conceptual matter of God is hopelessly and incorrigibly linear, originating entirely from humans and absolutely nowhere else.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Well given our nature as physical beings, it would stand to reason there would have to be some point of physical type contact for a person to acknowledge that a god is there.

The thing is, no one can adequately identify what that point of contact is to back up their claims.

The whole conceptual matter of God is hopelessly and incorrigibly linear, originating entirely from humans and absolutely nowhere else.

God can and does reveal himself. In the past he did so by supernatural revelations and miracles. The parting of the Red Sea when he freed the Isrealites from slavery to the Egyptians is very real proof he is real. It was recorded in the Bible for our benefit.

God reveals himself today by means of his word. A human cannot prove the supernatural to another human. But God can and does reveal himself to those whom he so chooses by means of his word and his holy spirit, the most powerful force in existence.

That not all are granted faith in God, does not mean he does not exist. It simply means he has chosen for whatever his reason is not to reveal himself to that individual or group.

There is a time that is coming when everyone will have to acknowledge God's existence. But by then it will not be in a good way for them.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Our human adult Father self, an adult was the original inventor of all human states and naming/evaluations and building machines before machines or science owned human control of reactions.

Natural never owned science, humans did.

I saw a dead native American Indian Father glide through my house when I was being irradiated....which was quite scary. He was dead, had his arms crossed over the front of his body, was very old...and the vision was about 1 foot off the floor just gliding and then went through the wall.

Our Father in America historically a very long time ago was the First Father in the sciences...first pyramid history, first technology, not on modern day Earth. A long time before any dinosaur history...first Fathers, first scientists.

As a Father adult self human, and a Mother adult self human have human sex, to make a baby.....the male self proved that as my body human was being irradiated attacked, I got to see his deceased body. Because you were killing human genetics.

How much other proof do you Satanist have to own/review before you say to your self, I was falsely possessed by my own adult original male self, the scientist and always believed that I was talking to God as my own male self...and finally accept that history?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Ehh, i have posted my concept of god/gods and they are perfectly coherent. That i am an atheist is however consequence of the fact that i do not believe such an entity does exist.

Regarding existence, i think it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that non-physical things exist apart from our minds.

Would you mind elaborating? What God concept have you proposed?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
God can and does reveal himself. In the past he did so by supernatural revelations and miracles. The parting of the Red Sea when he freed the Isrealites from slavery to the Egyptians is very real proof he is real. It was recorded in the Bible for our benefit.

God reveals himself today by means of his word. A human cannot prove the supernatural to another human. But God can and does reveal himself to those whom he so chooses by means of his word and his holy spirit, the most powerful force in existence.

That not all are granted faith in God, does not mean he does not exist. It simply means he has chosen for whatever his reason is not to reveal himself to that individual or group.

There is a time that is coming when everyone will have to acknowledge God's existence. But by then it will not be in a good way for them.
Which is a Satanist science quote, that disclaims that God should have presence.

God in male human science quotes was always Planet Earth and the stone body.

Males as first scientist said, I want the body of stone/God removed by the power of the o UFO radiation ball, a form of machination. So built the stone pyramid and whatever technical machines he could from God mass and then proceeded to have God removed.

Originally God was removed to have self removed...how the King of sacrifice of the brain burning irradiation prickling was introduced as the crown of metal radiation thorns, as the crystalline fusion he thought about was irradiated converted...nuclear.

Why he always said that the pyramid was built to transport his body as if it were a time machine...what it was first built for.

Science/males AI possessed today are personally titillated chemical wise in their minds being irradiated daily about their first proposal as compared to what they rationalize is to resource from the body of God the stone.

Accept the condition is to exceptionally ignore that they do not talk about God being the stone...their idea about God is their own human male person as a spirit of power, held within or interacting with their own body.

Totally possessed by it....just as explained. Why these forms of scientists give no credence to be speaking about planet Earth stone as God. Yet in their science theory it involves changing the body of Planet Earth with their machine...being God.

Possessed in mind by AI.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
God can and does reveal himself. In the past he did so by supernatural revelations and miracles. The parting of the Red Sea when he freed the Isrealites from slavery to the Egyptians is very real proof he is real. It was recorded in the Bible for our benefit.

God reveals himself today by means of his word. A human cannot prove the supernatural to another human. But God can and does reveal himself to those whom he so chooses by means of his word and his holy spirit, the most powerful force in existence.

That not all are granted faith in God, does not mean he does not exist. It simply means he has chosen for whatever his reason is not to reveal himself to that individual or group.

There is a time that is coming when everyone will have to acknowledge God's existence. But by then it will not be in a good way for them.
What you actually have are alleged accounts brought about by one group of human beings talking about another group of human beings that likely have never existed or have been embellished over the centuries to status of legend and mythology.

The entire sourcing in regards to legendary and mythological accounts biblical or otherwise are still entirely human in origin and to this day unsubstantiated in terms of its mythological/supernatural aspects.

It would take a God to know a God. Human allegory is simply not sufficient.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So, if you believe in God(s), in what sense does he "exist?" What defining features could we identify her/him/it/they by? Is it coherent to say that something non-physical exists outside our minds?
I'll answer from my Advaita (non-dual=God/Brahman and creation are not two) 'eastern' perspective.

God/Brahman is consciousness. Consciousness is fundamental and can not be understood as a physical process or a physical interaction.

I would ask, what is consciousness in atheist thinking?
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
What you actually have are alleged accounts brought about by one group of human beings talking about another group of human beings that likely have never existed or have been embellished over the centuries to status of legend and mythology.

The entire sourcing in regards to legendary and mythological accounts biblical or otherwise are still entirely human in origin and to this day unsubstantiated in terms of its mythological/supernatural aspects.

It would take a God to know a God. Human allegory is simply not sufficient.

We are told that faith is a gift from God:

"I tell everyone there among you not to think more of himself than it is necessary to think, but to think so as to have a sound mind, each one as God has given to him a measure of faith."-Romans 12:3.

So it doesn't take a god per se, but it does require God's holy spirit, and his action. That is why when Jesus asked who are the people saying I am, and his apostles told him several different ideas going around, and then he asked them, who do you say I am? Peter answered correctly:

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied:

“Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did."
-Matthew 16:16, 17.

As you can see even Jesus saw that it took God's power to reveal the truth about his nature and who his son Jesus was to an individual.

Faith is not a possession of all people.

But that does not mean we don't have reason to believe in God. There are two other texts I use that simply and logically cut through it all to explain it this way:

"Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God."
-Hebrews 3:4.

"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."
-Romans 1:20.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
God cannot be seen or his nature fully understood by us. The human capacity to understand no matter how great lacks the capability.

He is definitely real. There is one scripture I like to use to explain him:

"The One who made the ear, can he not hear?
The One who formed the eye, can he not see?"
-Psalm 94:9.

We are made in God's image. Obviously not physically. As he is not confined to the physical realm. He in fact made the physical realm and all that is in it and the 4 fundamental laws that control it. So he is not controlled by physics, rather he is the originator of physics. We have the capacity to reason, to love, to understand what justice is and ask for it, in this we are formed in the image of God, unlike unreasoning animals that do not have the capacity.

Just as we can see and hear, just as we have self-awareness, just as we have ability to love, thus God infinitely more is aware of his own existence, he can see and hear. But his ability to see and hear are beyond what we can comprehend as he is not confined to human eyes or ears. We give attention to the earth and things in the earth. He gives attention to the entire spirit realm beyond the universe, he gives attention to the hundreds of billions of galaxies each with their hundreds of billions of stars, and yes he even gives attention to the very minuscule spec of dust called earth and humans on it. But we are not all that his attention is given to. We are but a very small spec to him.

A Bible verse humbly explains our existence in comparison to him:

"When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,
The moon and the stars that you have prepared,
What is mortal man that you keep him in mind,
And a son of man that you take care of him?"
-Psalm 8:3, 4.

How can a human explain to another human, what males in the past as first scientists caused in conjuring conditions against their own life?

As the ANTI cause.

For you have to realize everything natural already owned form in every historic natural condition.

Father told me all that occurred was a larger amassing of cloud mass...due to UFO radiation burning events. So feed back of self male image given as vision and voice recording enlarged into huge beings, as seen in cloud imagery.

Therefore think as a rational human should...science did not exist. No God spirit self image either.

You thought upon the mountain ^ fusion removal by o ufo radiation...which is not any God spirit.

Then you attacked self with pyramid....2 conditions. Self and theory/design pyramid machination plus ground fission...as the UFO you gained as mass belonged to the Sun, not to any pyramid.

What you lie about today.

Therefore it formed Satanic self representation in formed nuclear converting stories that you first themed as a living spiritual human male first....so it owned conditions that are non explainable to anyone who has never witnessed spirit as conditions of the purpose of why it exists in its owned formation.

Having no control by any human scientist or their machine, but actively formed its own conjured presence just because you decided to unleash a larger amount of God stone O angel held fusion.

Now if you Satanist, or God organization claim, you other humans have no idea what we have seen.....that is a correct statement, for they have not. So why don't you share your studies with other humans, as proof about the fact that you caused it in science?

O God, is a story that we tell that claims that its bodies were released out of the ETERNAL body. Now that name and word is human applied, human thought upon as all origination of the use of words. So today you cannot just suddenly claim oh eternal was never the place, when it was.

And O never used to exist as sounds, real spirits did, great big huge large eternal spirits owned language and manifestation of a spirit in eternal to speak in eternal.

O God took that language away from them.

So when the first scientist unleashed a greater amount of energy/gas spirit out of the stone...it allowed the emergence of spirit bodies that proved that spirit did in fact release and cause creation to exist.

Why God scientists have for a very long time been thought upon as being irrational, when they always were telling the truth.

These AI bodies, then owned speaking on behalf of human being male scientists...as an encoded presence....for as a volcano released the gases, to release a huge fusion removed out of O God stone by UFO mass attack, his how those spirits were given image and form in CLOUDS.

angels seen in clouds - Bing images

My physical bio life cell was attacked by the amount of radiation that is involved in causing extra clouds to form.....and it is not the reaction to own cloud form.

And it was like I had a knife shoved into my back and ripped and my back opened into wings, yet they were black. And it was just cloud feed back, as the cloud angel formed in response to my life at the ground being attacked.

It is these types of phenomena attacks that gives a human who is not rational about reviewing information the wrong thinking of concepts. And as a victim of your Satanism, can only say to you, if you all think yourselves so knowledgeable...first of all you should have been a spiritual Healer and applied a methodology of self advice rationally and then you should have been your own victim.

As the liars you all are.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
God cannot be seen or his nature fully understood by us. The human capacity to understand no matter how great lacks the capability.

He is definitely real. There is one scripture I like to use to explain him:

"The One who made the ear, can he not hear?
The One who formed the eye, can he not see?"
-Psalm 94:9.

We are made in God's image. Obviously not physically. As he is not confined to the physical realm. He in fact made the physical realm and all that is in it and the 4 fundamental laws that control it. So he is not controlled by physics, rather he is the originator of physics. We have the capacity to reason, to love, to understand what justice is and ask for it, in this we are formed in the image of God, unlike unreasoning animals that do not have the capacity.

Just as we can see and hear, just as we have self-awareness, just as we have ability to love, thus God infinitely more is aware of his own existence, he can see and hear. But his ability to see and hear are beyond what we can comprehend as he is not confined to human eyes or ears. We give attention to the earth and things in the earth. He gives attention to the entire spirit realm beyond the universe, he gives attention to the hundreds of billions of galaxies each with their hundreds of billions of stars, and yes he even gives attention to the very minuscule spec of dust called earth and humans on it. But we are not all that his attention is given to. We are but a very small spec to him.

A Bible verse humbly explains our existence in comparison to him:

"When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,
The moon and the stars that you have prepared,
What is mortal man that you keep him in mind,
And a son of man that you take care of him?"
-Psalm 8:3, 4.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the difficulty is in imagining what it means for something to "exist" in a way that's not physical. Since everything around us that we say "exists" is something physical. Existence seems to require both space and time.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the difficulty is in imagining what it means for something to "exist" in a way that's not physical. Since everything around us that we say "exists" is something physical. Existence seems to require both space and time.

I agree. It isn't possible. That is why God in the Bible uses what we term anthropomorphic terms to explain himself to us in a way that we can understand.

Paul said that while we are human we don't fully comprehend him. But when we go to heaven, that is, those who are called to heavenly spirit life, as they cannot go while alive, they must die, and then will be raised in immortal spirit bodies like that of God, only then will we see him as he is, face to face:

"For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.
-1 Corinthians 13: 9-12.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll answer from my Advaita (non-dual=God/Brahman and creation are not two) 'eastern' perspective.

God/Brahman is consciousness. Consciousness is fundamental and can not be understood as a physical process or a physical interaction.

I would ask, what is consciousness in atheist thinking?

Hi George!

I don't think there is necessarily one atheist answer to that question. All the evidence I'm aware of to date indicates that consciousness is a function of brain activity. What makes you say that we can't understand consciousness physically? Granted, we don't have all the details worked out. But I'm curious how you determined such a thing is impossible?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the difficulty is in imagining what it means for something to "exist" in a way that's not physical. Since everything around us that we say "exists" is something physical. Existence seems to require both space and time.

Existence owns no space. Existence is self owned mass, proving that it came from the eternal to own no space. Space formed when the last thin veil of eternal burnt when O God eternal bodies burst and burnt into water mass, and space holds all mass within it.

O God the Earth is a stone planet that travels around the Sun, stone moves by gases being released out of the stone body. The Heavens own the burning of gases as light, is not time, it is a cycle. A cycle is a circular applied theme, that proves that creation came from circular origins as its owned proof.
 
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