Horse? Or a person/s vs a god?
The rider of the white horse at Revelation 6:2 pictures a kind of person. That kind of person has existed since Cain and now exists in the likes of the governing body, but it is not just them.
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Are Jehovah's Witnesses taught not to answer hypothetical questions?
- Thread starter Parsimony
- Start date
The rider of the white horse at Revelation 6:2 pictures a kind of person. That kind of person has existed since Cain and now exists in the likes of the governing body, but it is not just them.
siti
Well-Known Member
OK - so your evidence in this discussion, consists essentially in identifying the Governing Body of the Watchtower organization as a false prophet and asking JWs to consider this as a hypothetical possibility - and if they refuse to do so you will declare case proven - JWs are taught to avoid hypothetical questions? But could you not formulate the exact same argument against Roman Catholics by declaring the Pope a false prophet, evolutionists by declaring Darwin a false prophet or Republicans by declaring Donald Trump a false prophet. Surely you must be able to see my point by now. Nobody in their right mind is going to entertain a discussion that is based on accepting a hypothetical that completely undermines their current beliefs. You won't do that - you've already proved that in this very discussion when I asked you to suppose that JWs were right. You just can't bring yourself to do it. Its not JW indoctrination that prevents them from entertaining hypothetical questions like that. Its human nature.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
This is the second time you have used this phrase. It is blatantly disrespectful, and I can tell you mean it in a condescending manner. Do you believe Jesus would have ever used this phrase? Told anyone that he believed that their question was dumb? Do you not strive to attain what you believe Jesus asked you to attain? Not saying "That's a dumb question" seems like pretty low-hanging fruit to discard from your repertoire of communication to help keep you in the "cleanliness is next to godliness" club.Its a dumb question.
And don't bother trying to turn this around and say that I am disrespectful - because I am fully aware of it. I simply don't subscribe to the idea that I need be like anyone in particular, and I hold no doctrine sacred.
You were a Witness for 10 years (albeit 17 years ago), and you now believe in descent with modification, i.e., mankind evolved from single-felled organisms?!
Just curious (please follow my line of thought): do you remember what the Bible teaches about the dead? And Carlita's comment was this.....
She's not alone, many cultures believe similarly.
Do you not consider anymore the extent of influence that the Master Deceiver (Revelation 12:9) has had, in misleading mankind thruout history and today?
You ignore it, or what?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I had to laugh at this. You're blunt; I'll give you that.Yes. I have a lot in common with a lot of cultures who believe heavily in ancestral veneration and communion with the spirits. Always have been since childhood. However, now, as an adult, I practice it individually since my family isn't together like we were.
It's a valued tradition and I'm very glad to be a part of communities who honor their family in spirit and spirits in general. It shows the love and connection that each person has not just in this life but in the next. It also lets us know that death does not separate us. To many cultures, death is a transition. No life after death.
The bible is not my authority. If you want to prove what I believe is wrong, you have to use other sources to one, prove the fact actually exists, and two, how it affects humanity as a whole (and why can't non-christians see what you see as well).
Ignore? That sounds negative. Why be so negative?
Just as the Gita and the Quran aren't authorities in my life, why would I consider the bible as one? You can call it ignoring. I just say it's not relevant to my life.
From my point of view, what's wrong with that?
After death (dying before Armageddon, that is), people will get another chance, when the Resurrection occurs. (John 5:28-29; John 6:44)
Just sayin.
Yes. I have a lot in common with a lot of cultures who believe heavily in ancestral veneration and communion with the spirits. Always have been since childhood. However, now, as an adult, I practice it individually since my family isn't together like we were.
It's a valued tradition and I'm very glad to be a part of communities who honor their family in spirit and spirits in general. It shows the love and connection that each person has not just in this life but in the next. It also lets us know that death does not separate us. To many cultures, death is a transition. No life after death.
The bible is not my authority. If you want to prove what I believe is wrong, you have to use other sources to one, prove the fact actually exists, and two, how it affects humanity as a whole (and why can't non-christians see what you see as well).
Ignore? That sounds negative. Why be so negative?
Just as the Gita and the Quran aren't authorities in my life, why would I consider the bible as one? You can call it ignoring. I just say it's not relevant to my life.
From my point of view, what's wrong with that?
My comments were addressed to @siti, I was using a comment you made to stress a point to Siti; forgive me, Carlita! I know you don't believe in the Bible.
Best wishes.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
.... to add, no. We're not talking to the dead.
If you believe that, whatever we say will go right over your head. There are probably a handful of people who don't believe that spirits live after death. Our cultures and perspectives vary, and we all believe it just the same.
JW aren't a huge denomination and they don't speak for other people, especially not for non-christians. It's an irrelevant statement unless you want to learn something from our point of view rather than say we are wrong.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I did have to clarify, though. We don't believe there is "the dead." It would be nice to talk about it but those who believe as I do are pretty silent on RF forums.
You are proving to me that you have been taught not to listen to any other way very well. I said that I had been a Jehovah's Witness for longer than you. Did you not say that you were one for a decade? I was one for twenty years. I DID bring myself to do it! I did not suppose they were right, I trusted that they were right. Also, I do not suppose they are right about some things. I know they are.
THEY say we are to flee from false religion. That is what I am doing.
Not only is it what I am doing, but I am doing my little part to help others to flee from false religion.
I KNOW they are a religion (They say they aren't) and I KNOW they are teaching God's Word wrong.
Everyone is teaching God's words wrong.
The scene at Revelation 6 shows the world. Teaching God's words wrong brings the tribulation.
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The scene at Revelation 19 shows Heaven. Heaven and Earth are different.
Is there really no solution? There is a solution. If you are convinced you know what is the truth go ahead and teach it but, DO NOT CALL IT FROM GOD.
I have not said that they are taught to avoid any question. But it didn't have to be proved to me on this thread that they actually do.
I know with absolute certainty that they will not discuss any probability that anything they believe in might be wrong. I do not know how they are so good at not discussing beyond their own creed.
YOU seem to say that by throwing their dogma back at me is called a discussion. FYI it isn't. It isn't by them and it isn't by you.
If you want to discuss my personal views, then send me a PM and I'll talk with you. It's off-topic to this discussion.
I'm not sure that I understand the question. Are you asking, "what would I do if I knew that the Jehovah's Witness interpretation of scripture was the correct way to view reality?" In that case, I would become a Jehovah's Witness.
I guess that depends on how you define "accepting". If you mean really changing your mind about the matter in order to have the discussion, then no. If you mean just imagining the scenario simply to explore the consequences, then yes. It's something we do all the time. That's what I meant with this thread.
Huh. Well. That's unfortunate. However, I really, really doubt that an entire group of people (in this case, the Jehovah's Witnesses) would suffer from a lack of creativity and imagination.Not everyone's:
Are Today's Youth Less Creative & Imaginative?
The Enemies of Invention
I am a non-linear thinker. It's great for improv on short notice, but I also can't focus worth a ... SQUIRREL!
It's taken me awhile to realize that some people just simply and biologically can't simulate possible scenarios in their heads. Just today, while our lawn mower is in the shop and we're using that horrible manual rotary one, the stupid thing gets stuck on sticks all the dang time and my mom was trying to help mow but she started throwing a tantrum when the blades wouldn't rotate. I had to show her how to reverse the blades to get the object unstuck. She is incapable of imagining not only what is actually wrong (similarly, she thought the washer was broken but it was most likely she didn't close the door all the way) but also can't conceive of any possible solutions. It's ... FRUSTRATING.
I've heard about those studies. I still think we would be better off if we acknowledged our own weaknesses (mental and otherwise) than to try to hide from them.
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siti
Well-Known Member
What a curious typo 'single-felled organism' - that sounds like Adam. Maybe a Freudian slip? Anyway, yes - I do - and to be honest, although during witness days I tried my best to justify special creation in my own mind, I couldn't bring myself to expressly deny the facts of science. Even when I gave talks on creation, I always skipped the Darwin-bashing bits - nobody really noticed - although I was counseled more than once or twice to stick closer to my outlines (but I'm guessing every one who gives public talks has received that counsel at some point - I know almost all of the elders in my congregation did). Even when I was a witness, I'd been a 'scientist' for longer so it was always hard to reconcile that (anti-evolution) part - which, to be honest, is based on an unnecessarily restrictive interpretation of a single word in the Bible which occurs first in this form לְמִינ֔וֹ, transliterated lə·mî·nōw and meaning 'kind' or 'species' in English (Genesis 1:11) and a literal interpretation of the creation of Adam from the dust in Genesis 2:7. If you accept that the word 'kind' is not intended to imply a biological classification and Gen 2:7 might be figurative, there is nothing else in scripture that speaks against evolution. And there is plenty of undeniable scientific evidence that speaks for it (but I have already presented a fair amount of that in more appropriate threads - its way off topic here).
I'm not following your line of reasoning at all here. Carlita believes what she believes, "many cultures" believe what they believe, you believe what you believe - what does any of that have to do with me accepting the fact of evolution based on scientific evidence? Or are you buying into my theory that the talking snake, having deceived Eve and stumbled Adam, then went around the world planting the bones of dead things in ancient rocks to make it look like had evolved in order to deceive otherwise sensible and faithful would-be or has-been JWs like me?
siti
Well-Known Member
OK - so what would be the consequences of that hypothetical scenario? How would it change your outlook - your life?
Are you asking how talking about a different point of view can change someone's life?
What does your post here mean?
siti
Well-Known Member
Wrong again! If you are convinced you know what is the truth, you are almost certainly mistaken - but it will be very difficult for you to admit it. I know people who have changed their religious views dozens of times and every time they are utterly convinced they have the truth and are incapable of genuinely considering alternative (even hypothetical) viewpoints. I also know people who are open to alternative viewpoints even though they have strong religious convictions that they have held for many years. But again - the question was about whether JWs are taught not to answer hypothetical questions. So - since you are proud of your JW service years - were you? How and when was that lesson taught to you? What scriptural support was used to reinforce the injunction against hypothetical questions? And how, since you now seem to disagree with it (perhaps - though if I am not allowed to claim that my "truth" is from God - perhaps you still agree that we shouldn't entertain hypothetical questions - you certainly seem to have a very negative reaction to mine).
That question was specifically for @Parsimony who will, I believe, understand it.
O good grief!
What is it with people who take every word so personally? Or is it just some super sensitive Americans? I'm really sorry I don't tip-toe around your sensitivities very well. We call a spade a spade here and Aussies are pretty direct and to the point. We don't do fake politeness or political correctness very well either. It was a "dumb question" to me.....do you understand? Asking a hypothetical question that makes no sense and is irrelevant to my belief system, is "dumb" to me. I wasn't calling the person "dumb", just the question. Got it?
Perhaps you need to read more scripture.....Jesus was very forthright when it came to telling it like it was. How about his words to the Pharisees?......
Matthew 23:13-15:
13 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves."
24 "Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!
27-28 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?"
I think they got the picture....don't you?
If you find my posts offensive, I am sorry, but that is how I express myself. If you don't wish to be offended, please don't read my posts.
Its pretty simple really.
siti
Well-Known Member
Whoa! How did I did miss this gem? This is meant to prove what? That JWs don't like hypothetical questions that challenge their current beliefs - but you are much more open-minded?
The case for the defense rests your honor!