Are Messianic Jews Christians?

[Psalm23]

There are actually quite a few Messianic Jews that are in my area that I've talked to. What I got from them was that they were people who took the christian bible very seriously, and they wanted to get closer to god. Most of these people I would typically classify as Evangelical/Baptist types.

They seem just as devoted to Jesus as any Christians I've ever known; I think they hunger for more than what they get at church, though, which tends to be a rehash of the same concepts over and over while glossing over the context and reason for the events that unfolded in Jesus' time.

I think many, too, are interested in Jewish culture and it's interaction with early Christianity. That's what I got from it
Talking to them at least.

If they believe in Jesus Divinity, and doctrines such as his death on the cross to pay our sins and resurrection and tells me they have received Jesus, then I would count them as believers in Jesus just as I am.

 

[Teritos]

So if you circumsise you're not a Christian?

If you are circumcised because you think it is a commandment of God, then you are not a Christian. But a Christian can circumcise himself for health reasons if he wants to. Messianic Jews circumcise themselves because they claim it is a duty, they say it is still God's commandment.

 

[SigurdReginson]

If you are circumcised because you think it is a commandment of God, then you are not a Christian. But a Christian can circumcise himself for health reasons if he wants to. Messianic Jews circumcise themselves because they claim it is a duty, they say it is still God's commandment.

They do? That wasn't the impression I got in talking to them. Where did you hear this, specifically?

 

[SigurdReginson]

I'm sorry, but I just have to...

 

[Teritos]

They do? That wasn't the impression I got in talking to them. Where did you hear this, specifically?

Of course, that is why they are called "Messianic Jews". They are still trying to keep the Torah today. They also celebrate the festivals and keep the food commandments.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Of course, that is why they are called "Messianic Jews". They are still trying to keep the Torah today. They also celebrate the festivals and keep the food commandments.

Have you actually talked to one to find out what they actually believe?

 

[Teritos]

Have you actually talked to one to find out what they actually believe?

Of course, I've already talked to them.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Of course, I've already talked to them.

Ok, because every Messianic Jew I've talked to believes in the saving grace of Jesus' sacrifice. Even though they feel that the sacrifice completes the law, they don't feel it abolished the law, like Jesus himself stated. They also refer to Paul's comment that "Faith without works is dead." Now, if those works aren't based in god's law, where do those works come from? Keep in mind, Jesus was a Jew who lived according to that law - which is one reason he was sinless.

 

[Teritos]

Ok, because every Messianic Jew I've talked to believes in the saving grace of Jesus' sacrifice. Even though they feel that the sacrifice completes the law, they don't feel it abolished the law, like Jesus himself stated. They also refer to Paul's comment that "Faith without works is dead." Now, if those works aren't based in god's law, where do those works come from? Keep in mind, Jesus was a Jew who lived according to that law - which is one reason he was sinless.

If you yourself admit that they observe the law and thus continue circumcision, why did you question this? And this is not what Paul said, Paul said that works of the law are worthless.
And they don't really believe in the grace of Jesus, otherwise they wouldn't live by the law. Jesus himself said that the law is finished.

 

[1213]

In my opinion, according to the Bible, they are not Christians. They still live in the old covenant, they circumcise themselves, they celebrate the Sabbath and they also keep other laws of Moses. They still live like a servant of God although the new covenant has made Christians children of God. They try to keep the law even though it is not possible. Many Messianic Jews do not even believe that Jesus is God. The funny thing is, some Messianic Jews themselves admit they are not Christians.

In Bible Christian means a disciple of Jesus.

… It was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11:26

And a Christian is a person who remains in the words of Jesus, is loyal to his teachings.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

If they believe there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus, they are loyal to teachings of Jesus and on that matter I would call them disciples of Jesus.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

And Jesus didn’t revoke God’s law. And actually, if law is not valid, nothing is wrong and there is no need for forgiveness and Jesus, which is why it would not be wise to say God's Law is not valid.

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

But, people should not obey the law for trying to earn salvation. It should be done because they love God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

I would like to know, why do you think it is impossible to keep the law?

 

[SigurdReginson]

If you yourself admit that they observe the law and thus continue circumcision, why did you question this? And this is not what Paul said, Paul said that works of the law are worthless.
And they don't really believe in the grace of Jesus, otherwise they wouldn't live by the law. Jesus himself said that the law is finished.

I'm just telling you what I got in my conversations with them. Maybe the ones you talked to believe in something different than the ones I talked to.

As for the verse I was referring to, you're right! I double checked and it was James, Jesus' brother, not Paul.

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, I'm curious... Was James wrong, and Paul right?

 

[Rival]

And they don't really believe in the grace of Jesus, otherwise they wouldn't live by the law. Jesus himself said that the law is finished.

It would be really good if you'd stop telling other folks what they believe.

 

[SigurdReginson]

It would be really good if you'd stop telling other folks what they believe.

What good is a straw man that speaks for itself?

 

[Teritos]

I'm just telling you what I got in my conversations with them. Maybe the ones you talked to believe in something than the ones I talked to believes in.

As for the verse I was referring to, you're right! I double checked and it was James, Jesus' brother, not Paul.

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, I'm curious... Was James wrong, and Paul right?

Unfortunately, you completely misunderstand James. By "works" he means something different from what you imagine. If you would read the context, you might figure it out yourself.
I'll give you a hint, do you think it's a good work to kill your own son? That is against the law, because the law says: "You shall not kill". But James lists the will of Abraham to sacrifice his son as a work. Something else must be meant here. James would never contradict Paul who says that the works of the law are worthless.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Unfortunately, you completely misunderstand James. By "works" he means something different from what you imagine. If you would read the context, you might figure it out yourself.
I'll give you a hint, do you think it's a good work to kill your own son? That is against the law, because the law says: "You shall not kill". But James lists the will of Abraham to sacrifice his son as a work. Something else must be meant here. James would never contradict Paul who says that the works of the law are worthless.

Well, how about instead of giving me hints, tell me outright?

Ultimately, the law is the will of god. If god tells you to do something outside of a written law, like the 10 commandments (which is a form of the law which christians still very much follow), then doing so is still abiding by the law because you are abiding by god's will, as far as I remember.

I feel like your idea of Christianity differs from my understanding because when I was a Baptist/Evangelical they never said that the law was worthless. They said it was good to try your best to follow it, but that it was impossible because humans were flawed. The whole point of the law was to show humans that they couldn't live up to the perfect standard god had set. What is your interpretation for why the law was set in place by god?

 

[Teritos]

Well, how about instead of giving me hints, tell me outright?

Ultimately, the law is the will of god. If god tells you to do something outside of a written law, like the 10 commandments (which is a form of the law which christians still very much follow), then doing so is still abiding by the law because you are abiding by god's will, as far as I remember.

I feel like your idea of Christianity differs from my understanding because when I was a Baptist/Evangelical they never said that the law was worthless. They said it was good to try your best to follow it, but that it was impossible because humans were flawed. The whole point of the law was to show humans that they couldn't live up to the perfect standard god had set. What is your interpretation for why the law was set in place by god?

No, what Abraham did was not a work of the law but a work of faith. Faith and law are two different things. The law can be kept by anyone, even an atheist or a Muslim can keep the law. But keeping the faith, only Christian believers can do that. Therefore, when Paul says that the works of the law are useless, he means that the law cannot justify anyone, because no one is able to keep the law, everyone will break the law. If someone thinks that it is enough to at least try to keep the law, he is wrong, because whoever breaks the law only once is guilty in everything, so James says, and what is the punishment? As Paul says, the punishment is eternal death. But faith can justify the sinful man, by believing only in the right thing he can be saved, he does not have to do more.

 

[SigurdReginson]

No, what Abraham did was not a work of the law but a work of faith. Faith and law are two different things. The law can be kept by anyone, even an atheist or a Muslim can keep the law. But keeping the faith, only Christian believers can do that. Therefore, when Paul says that the works of the law are useless, he means that the law cannot justify anyone, because no one is able to keep the law, everyone will break the law. If someone thinks that it is enough to at least try to keep the law, he is wrong, because whoever breaks the law only once is guilty in everything, so James says, and what is the punishment? As Paul says, the punishment is eternal death. But faith can justify the sinful man, by believing only in the right thing he can be saved, he does not have to do more.

Really now? You have a very different interpretations than me... Why did god put his law in place in the first place, then? What was the purpose he had intended? I never heard that trying to keep the law was wrong... That's interesting.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In my opinion, according to the Bible, they are not Christians. They still live in the old covenant, they circumcise themselves, they celebrate the Sabbath and they also keep other laws of Moses. They still live like a servant of God although the new covenant has made Christians children of God. They try to keep the law even though it is not possible. Many Messianic Jews do not even believe that Jesus is God. The funny thing is, some Messianic Jews themselves admit they are not Christians.

The only criteria I use to decide if someone is Christian:

• Do they identify as Christian?
• Do they follow Christ, based on their own understanding of what "Christ" and "following" him mean?

If the answers to both of those questions are "yes," then I consider the person a Christian.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay, Messianic Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahaites are all Christians now. They all believe in Jesus and in the crucifixion. All other Christians have misunderstood the Bible.

Of course, in these clear verses you can interpret something else.

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are certainly Christian.

From what I understand, Messianic Jews vary on whether they self-identify as Christians; Muslims and members of the Baha'i faith don't self-identify as Christians, so they're not.

 

[Clear]

REGARDING ANTI-CHRISTIAN CHRISTIANITY

I do not think that anti-Christian Christianity is a good thing. It seems to be content with half-truths and misstatements and ignorant claims. For examples :

Teritos said : “Well, even Paul condemns the Messianic Jews.”
This is a very Bizarre claim since Paul was himself, a Messianic Jew.


Teritos said : “They do not really believe in the New Testament… (post #5)
This is a very strange over generalization of a claim since the Messianic Christians that are Jews and friends that I have known for years believe in and study the New Testament just like most other Christians. For example, the Sar Shalom Christian community translated the New Testament into Hebrew so their Hebrew speaking members could study the New Testament in Hebrew.


Teritos said : “I have spoken with Messianic Jews, they themselves testify that one must keep the law…. they themselves admit not to be Christians. (post #7)
Again, this is another bizarre claim and is inconsistent with Christian Jews that I have known for years.


Teritos said : “Just believing that Jesus is the Messiah does not make someone a Christian, even Muslims believe that. (post #10)
This is another bizarre claim since Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah who atones for the sins of the world in a Christian sense.


Teritos said : “There is only one definition for the term Christian, and a Christian is someone who lives according to the new covenant. (post #13)
This is another strange and self centered viewpoint. Many Christians believe in Jesus but have trouble living according to the New Covenant.


Teritos said : “They do not believe in the New Testament…
This is simply a repeat of the false over-generalization made in post #5.


Teritos said : “But if the Bible itself, in this case Paul, says they are not Christians, should we not accept that? (post #15)
This represents a personal interpretation resulting in a personal viewpoint that seems to be somewhat impervious to the many suggestions from other posters that other interpretations are possible.


To summarize : I do not believe that Anti-Christian Christianity, or intolerance, or the self-satisfaction that inaccurately criticizes other Christians is a characteristic of authentic Christian religion itself, but rather I think that Anti-Christian Christianity seems to be a characteristic of personality.


Clear
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