Are Mormons Christians?

[Katzpur]

Okay, so I already know the answer to the question.

A new poster by the name of Bible Truth, however, is of a different opinion, and has suggested that this question be debated by "all who have been granted spiritual ears to hear." If you believe the condition of your spiritual ears qualifies you, and you are interested in weighing in on this, please feel free.

Since Bible Truth asked me to start this thread for him, I hope he will be so kind as to begin by defining the term "Christian," as my definition clearly does not suit him. To the best of my knowledge, the Bible never actually makes a clear statement as to what a "Christian" is. Jesus did say, however, that men would know His disciples by the love they showed for one another. According to LDS belief, a Christian would be a person who believes that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, who worships Him and looks to Him for salvation, and who strives to follow Christ's example in how he lives his life.

I would not presume to tell anyone who considers himself to be a Christian that he isn't one because he does not believe everything the Latter-day Saints do. I hope that Bible Truth will offer the Latter-day Saints the same courtesy. Otherwise, we might as well call off the debate entirely. This isn't, after all, a debate on "Are Mormons Lutheran?", "Are Mormons Catholic?", or "Are Mormons Baptist?"

 

[robtex]

I think anyone who says they are a christian is a christian. there are hundreds of branches of christianty and scores of bibles. It is the most diverse religion around today. Some branches are really similar and some are totally different. I think due to the diversity and broadness of doctrine and interpetation of that doc, trine, anyone who says they are a christian and follows at least one component of the religion, any componet, qualifies.

 

[Aqualung]

I think anyone who says they are a christian is a christian.

You don't think a stance such as that will make all words meaningless? I can say I'm short, but that doesn't change the fact that there aren't many girls taller than me. I can say I'm dumb, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm doing very well at a very good college. I can say I'm a christian, but if I don't follow the teachings of christ, am I really? To say that what I choose to call myself is necessarily true, just because I choose that word, devalues language and makes words meaningless.

 

[Tigress]

Whether or not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christian depends entirely on one's definition of 'Christian,' as I'm sure you well know. I, however, consider LDS Christian, and trust that a person, church, etc., is who, or what they say they are.

 

[UnityNow101]

A Christian to me is someone that follows Jesus Christ and believes Him to be the Son of God and that He died and rose physically from the dead. So yes, Mormons according to my definition are Christians..

 

[Katzpur]

You don't think a stance such as that will make all words meaningless? I can say I'm short, but that doesn't change the fact that there aren't many girls taller than me. I can say I'm dumb, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm doing very well at a very good college. I can say I'm a christian, but if I don't follow the teachings of christ, am I really? To say that what I choose to call myself is necessarily true, just because I choose that word, devalues language and makes words meaningless.

So how, in your opinion, should the word "Christian" be defined? I see where you're coming from, but since there doesn't seem to be any definition that all Christians can agree on, I think that a person's perception of himself ought to carry some weight. I would not claim, for instance, to be a Muslim because I don't see myself as a Muslim. If I claim to be a Christian, it's because that's how I see myself. What perfect stranger has the right to say otherwise?

 

[Prometheus]

I think LDS are Christians and I'm an Atheist, so I don't have spiritual ears.

Nevermind that I was raised LDS...

 

[Aqualung]

... I think that a person's perception of himself ought to carry some weight. ... If I claim to be a Christian, it's because that's how I see myself. What perfect stranger has the right to say otherwise?

Everybody has the right to use words. My calling you a muslim doesn't make you believe that Muhammad was a prophet. If I choose to define my words in a way that I see meaningful (and that perhaps no perfect stranger has any right to question), that shouldn't change your perception of yourself. If somebody chooses to define christian so stringently that it doesn't include mormons, what is that to your perceptions? After all, they ARE perfect strangers. A perfect stranger has the right to use words in any way they see pleasing, simply BECAUSE your beliefs are about perceptions, not about words. If they say mormons aren't christians, it doesn't make you (as a mormon) suddenly not believe in Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

Maybe we should also consider looking at the following criteria. Which of them do you all think should figure in?

1. Belief in Christ as the Son of God and as the Savior.
2. Acceptance of certain doctrines (i.e. the Trinity, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Predestination).
3. Having received water baptism.
4. Having been "born again".
5. Attending a Christian Church.
6. Seeing ones self as a Christian.

 

[Prometheus]

Maybe we should also consider looking at the following criteria. Which of them do you all think should figure in?

1. Belief in Christ as the Son of God and as the Savior.

This one.

 

[Ody]

s2a >: (

 

[Tigress]

I think 'Christian' encompasses any one individual, group, etc. who adheres to the teachings of Christ, regardless of how they view him (as a Rabbi, a prophet, or a deity, etc.), and however they choose to interpret said teachings.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

i just delated a really harsh answer to this question i don't care... "If its true than what else matters?" i have heard of this debate for a very long time i don't care... by deffination yes we are... but then agin this "church is true. so what else matters?"

 

[Prometheus]

I think 'Christian' encompasses any one individual, group, etc. who adheres to the teachings of Christ, regardless of how they view him (as a Rabbi, a prophet, or a deity, etc.), and however they choose to interpret said teachings.

That definition is loose enough to call me a Christian, so I don't think so.

 

[Runlikethewind]

I've heard this sort of debate before, some people where like "hey those guys are not Christian" and somebody else answered that one who speaks good of Christ cannot at the same time be against Christ. Now where did I hear that....

38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." 39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us.
Mark 9:38-40

Oh Ya the Bible. It was the apostles who where saying that others where not Christian and Jesus who said they where hmmm.... I guess He kind of dealt with this already if Mormons are not against Christ then they are for him, that is good enough for me to call them fellow Christians.

 

[robtex]

You don't think a stance such as that will make all words meaningless?

Meaningless isn't the word choice I was looking for. More that the idea of what a christian is is so broad that just about anyone who has any philosophical congruence to anything from any of the dozens of bibles available or hundreds of branches available and says or thinks "I am a christian" qualifies.

or more aply put from Katz post:

Maybe we should also consider looking at the following criteria. Which of them do you all think should figure in?

6. Seeing ones self as a Christian.

would be my thinking on it.

 

[s2a]

Katzpur asked:

Are Mormons Christians?

As reflected in my poll response, I initially chose the option of: "I don't know and I really couldn't care less.".
This is accurate enough of a description...but with some appropriate caveats...

Within the "I don't know" aspect...
1) I am not a Christian, therefore I am unqualified in rendering any accurate assessment of a personalized testament of specified (Christian) sectarian affiliation.
[I keep waiting for someone to point me towards that one definitive "final exam" that can establish an objectively measured and unequivocal validation of anyone's personal piety/sincereity within any personalized creedal claim of espoused sectarian affiliation. Obviously, whomever grades/scores the test for others, must have passed it themselves first. ;-)]

2). I am not a Mormon, though I've met a few in my days. Most seem pretty "Chrisitian-ish" enough for me to accept their self-assignation/affiliation as being [a] Christian.

Within the "I don't care" aspect...
3) This "debate" resides alone within the Christian "community" (whatever that actually entails or purports). Catholics, Protestants, and other "non-sectarian" Christians, appear to be the only people that (seek to) deny Mormons their claim of like affiliation...and I really don't care whether Mormons are either accepted or rejected by "mainstream" Christianity. Mormons believe and practice some pretty strange things, but no more odd or silly than some other sectarian rituals as practiced by Catholics, Baptists, or Pentecostal snake-handlers.


When robtex said:
I think anyone who says they are a christian is a christian.

Aqualung replied:

You don't think a stance such as that will make all words meaningless? I can say I'm short, but that doesn't change the fact that there aren't many girls taller than me. I can say I'm dumb, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm doing very well at a very good college. I can say I'm a christian, but if I don't follow the teachings of christ, am I really? To say that what I choose to call myself is necessarily true, just because I choose that word, devalues language and makes words meaningless.

Hmmm. Would you object to a revised wording of robtex's sentiment, if it were expressed in this way (so that we might preserve the integrity of language before tossing all words aside as meaningless)?

"I accept a self-identification/declaration from any person claiming to be a Christian, to therefore be a Christian from/within their own understanding of Christian teachings/beliefs."

Are you in the habit of challenging other's in their faith-based declarations of self? How about self-identified Pagans? Satanists? Bahá'í? Do you really grill them on their adherence and piety in measured evaluation first, in order to accept their sectarian claim as being genuine (or at least earnest and sincere)?

How would you know that I'm really an atheist? If you doubt my claim (or seek to dispute it), what invalidations would you submit to dismiss my claim, or; what substantiations would you require in order to accept my claim as being "probably true", or valid to you?

Tolerance of differing religious beliefs within a pluralistic society suggests that polite deference be lent to personalized claims of religious identification/affiliation, beyond requisite litmus tests of measured piety or adherence--as a matter of general acceptability in civil discourse. It's hardly advancing the demise of all semantics and conveyed meanings in stating: "I think anyone who says they are a christian is a christian."

Obviously, you are of the opinion that not all claimants of "Christian beliefs" are necessarily "Christians". But yours is not an argument of definition (or words), so much as a personalized position of testified and practiced faith.
As a self-identified "LDS Christian" yourself, I should think you would be especially cautious in disqualifying alternate understandings/revelations within any self-identified Christian sect as being illegitimate, or unworthy.

But hey...I'm an atheist...and I really don't care. ;-)

 

[Aqualung]

Meaningless isn't the word choice I was looking for. More that the idea of what a christian is is so broad that just about anyone who has any philosophical congruence to anything from any of the dozens of bibles available or hundreds of branches available and says or thinks "I am a christian" qualifies.

or more aply put from Katz post:



would be my thinking on it.

How does it not make an adjective meaningless if said adjective can be applied to EVERYTHING, even opposite characteristics? Adjectives are just as important for what they exclude as what they include. For example, going back to short. I am tall in part because I am not short. I am Christian not only because of what I believe but what I don't believe. If the meaning of the adjective "christian" rested on a mutable, subjective, and ofttimes contradictory statement as "Christians are whoever chooses to call themselves a Christian" the word becomes meaninless because adjectives, inherent in adjectivity (if that's a word), describe what things aren't as much as what they are.

 

[Aqualung]

Hmmm. Would you object to a revised wording of robtex's sentiment, if it were expressed in this way (so that we might preserve the integrity of language before tossing all words aside as meaningless)?

I would object to you revising robtex's words for him.

"I accept a self-identification/declaration from any person claiming to be a Christian, to therefore be a Christian from/within their own understanding of Christian teachings/beliefs."

I don't understand that.

Are you in the habit of challenging other's in their faith-based declarations of self?

Yes. I am in the habit of challenging everybody in every way when they use words improperly (for example, I challenged Luke Wolf in his definition of Anarchist earlier today). People can call themselves whatever they want. I don't deny that some people may feel good calling themselves christian or calling mormons un christian. I will allow them to that. But they are wrong, and in the process of being wrong, they make the word meaningless.

How about self-identified Pagans? Satanists? Bahá'í? Do you really grill them on their adherence and piety in measured evaluation first, in order to accept their sectarian claim as being genuine (or at least earnest and sincere)?

I don't grill beliefs - I grill terminology. I grill on the basis of semantics.

How would you know that I'm really an atheist?

I don't. But if make the following claims:

1: I am an atheist.
2: I believe in God.

Then I would debate you on that point, because atheists cannot believe in God. I don't care about YOUR belief or lack thereof. I don't even care if you're an atheist or not. What I care about is the fact that you are redefining a word such to make it completely meaningless. If atheism is allowed to cover both belief in deity and non-belief in deity, there is no point in the word existing, because it doesn't define anything.

It's not about people or beliefs. It's about words, and the invalidation of words that comes from such broad definitions.

Tolerance of differing religious beliefs

You are confusing the issues. I am not intolerant. I don't care what you believe. I care that you are abusing words. People can believe what they want; they just have to realise that calling their belief something it isn't does an injustice to words and language.

Obviously, you are of the opinion that not all claimants of "Christian beliefs" are necessarily "Christians". But yours is not an argument of definition (or words), so much as a personalized position of testified and practiced faith.

That's where you're wrong. It's all about definitions.

As a self-identified "LDS Christian" yourself, I should think you would be especially cautious in disqualifying alternate understandings/revelations within any self-identified Christian sect as being illegitimate, or unworthy.

Why do you think that?

But hey...I'm an atheist...and I really don't care. ;-)

Well, I hope you care enough to have the respect to respond to my response, instead of just throwing out a perfectly debatable point with no intention of debating.

 

[Mister Emu]

Mormons are Christians in as much that they believe in Jesus as the savior and live a life of following Him.

In certain beliefs they stray from the confines of Christianity in my opinion.