Are Mormons Christians?

[Katzpur]

katzpur, be completely honest.

Let's start here and work backwards, BT.

For some reason, you seem to think you need to ask me to something I would not do otherwise. Can you give me one good reason why I would not be honest with you? What on earth would I stand to gain my misrepresenting my own beliefs? What possible reason would I have for telling you that my Church teaches one thing when, in fact, it teaches something entirely different? And when have I ever been less than honest with you? I clearly have many shortcomings, but let me be perfectly clear about one thing: Dishonesty, hypocrisy and attempting to deceive are not among them.

If we both were missionaries to an area of the world who had no access to the Bible or LDS sacred writings, would this group of people come up with the same Jesus we proclaim?

I bring them the gospel and the Jesus revealed in the Bible alone to the northern group.

You bring them the gospel and the Jesus revealed in the Bible, Book of Mormons, Doctrines and Covenants, Price of the great Pearl to the southern group,

Do you honestly think the northern group and southern group would believe in the same gospel and same Jesus?

I honestly believe that the northern group would have a very good understanding of who Jesus was and a fairly good understanding of His gospel. I believe the southern group would have a better understanding of who Jesus was and a far more comprehensive and thorough understanding of His gospel. I believe that both groups would believe in the same Jesus and the same gospel; I just believe that the southern group would have additional knowledge the northern group would not have.

 

[*Paul*]

The link you provided is actually not part of the Doctrine and Covenants -- it is part of the Topical Guide. A "guide" in the scriptures to direct the readers to topics they would like to read about.

And, when you provide something from us, let us tell you what it means, instead of you (a non-member) telling us what we believe.

I did not tell you what you beleive, I posted what your scriptures plainly state and contrasted it with what the bible plainly states.

Your scriptures say you will be gods, you will have all power.

D&C 132: 37.
37 Abraham received aconcubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their cexaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

And look at this for blashpemy: equality with God?

106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The aLamb of God hath bovercome and ctrodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. 107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the asaints shall be filled with his bglory, and receive their cinheritance and be made dequal with him.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/88/107#107

The study helps say no different:
Man, potential to become like Heavenly Father: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5: 48 (3 Ne. 12: 48). Is it not written in your law that ye are gods? John 10: 34 (D&C 76: 58). We may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, Rom. 8: 17. Thou art a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4: 7. When he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3: 2. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me on my throne, Rev. 3: 21. To them have I given to become the sons of God, 3 Ne. 9: 17. Those who inherit the celestial kingdom are gods, even the sons of God, D&C 76: 50, 58. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, D&C 132: 20.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/m/4


GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES
Man, Men
See also God, Godhead; Sons and Daughters of God; Spirit; Spirit Creation
Refers to all mankind, both male and female. All men and women are the literal, spiritual offspring of a Heavenly Father. When they are born into mortality, they receive physical, mortal bodies. These bodies were created in God’s image (Gen. 1: 26-27). Men and women who are faithful in receiving the necessary ordinances, keeping their covenants, and obeying God’s commands will enter into their exaltation and become as God.


Again I am offering no interpretation here, it says what it says.

 

[silvermoon383]

Interesting...I seem to have read the same thing in the Bible...

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together
(New Testament | Romans 8:16 - 17)

Ring any bells?

 

[*Paul*]

Interesting...I seem to have read the same thing in the Bible...

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together
(New Testament | Romans 8:16 - 17)

Ring any bells?

Does this mention equality with God? It says we share an inheritance with Jesus Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

Again I am offering no interpretation here, it says what it says.

We're quite able to read what it says, Paul. We are telling you what we believe and what we understand these scriptures to mean. Certainly we have the right to interpret our own doctrine! We don't believe that we will ever be equal to God. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him. We have been given the potential to be like Him. Is a tiny baby equal to its parent or does the parent have some intrinsic value missing in the child? All children are equal to their parents in terms of their worth to God, but their parents have been given the responsibility to have dominion over them until they have reached maturity. It's a little bit like that; God will make us equal to Him in terms of our attributes, but unlike the situation that exists between a mortal parent and child, there will never be a time when He ceases to have dominion over us.

Furthermore, we will have absolutely nothing that He does not choose to give us. If it is His choice to make us something we could not possible become on our own, why are you so bothered by the idea?

Revelation 21:7 says that "he that overcometh shall inherit all things." That doesn't mean just some things; that means all things.

1 John 3 says that we He returns to earth to begin His Millennial Reign, "we shall be like him." If we are like Christ, we will have will share in everything the Father has given Him.

 

[*Paul*]

We're quite able to read what it says, Paul. We are telling you what we believe. We don't believe that we will ever be equal to God. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him. We will share His attributes and be like Him.

And that is what the text says? Or is your interpretation of it being imposed on to it? You say that you don't believe that you will ever be equal to God the texts says:
And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the asaints shall be filled with his bglory, and receive their cinheritance and be made dequal with him.

Which is more inspired?

 

[Katzpur]

Paul, it appears as if our posts crossed. I was editing my last post to clarify our interpretation of this doctrine as you were posting your reply.

 

[yuvgotmel]

"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors."

~~Pope Leo X~~

 

[bible truth]

Here is the biblical gospel in a nutshell:

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21

Could someone please post the short version of the LDS gospel?

 

[*Paul*]

We're quite able to read what it says, Paul. We are telling you what we believe and what we understand these scriptures to mean. Certainly we have the right to interpret our own doctrine! We don't believe that we will ever be equal to God. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him. We have been given the potential to be like Him. Is a tiny baby equal to its parent or does the parent have some intrinsic value missing in the child? All children are equal to their parents in terms of their worth to God, but their parents have been given the responsibility to have dominion over them until they have reached maturity. It's a little bit like that; God will make us equal to Him in terms of our attributes, but unlike the situation that exists between a mortal parent and child, there will never be a time when He ceases to have dominion over us.

Furthermore, we will have absolutely nothing that He does not choose to give us. If it is His choice to make us something we could not possible become on our own, why are you so bothered by the idea?

Revelation 21:7 says that "he that overcometh shall inherit all things." That doesn't mean just some things; that means all things.

1 John 3 says that we He returns to earth to begin His Millennial Reign, "we shall be like him." If we are like Christ, we will have will share in everything the Father has given Him.

I found nothing like your interpretation in the text or the cross references that i have checked.

 

[jonny]

Here is the biblical gospel in a nutshell:

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21

Could someone please post the short version of the LDS gospel?

Doctrine & Covenants 76

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

 

[Aqualung]

Here is the biblical gospel in a nutshell:
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21
Could someone please post the short version of the LDS gospel?

No problem. LDS Christ in a nutshell can be found in 2 Cor 5:21, which states, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousnes sof God in him."

 

[bible truth]

Doctrine & Covenants 76

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

Hey Jonny,

Since I'm not familiar with Doctrines and Covenants, could you please expound the verses above? What does it mean to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world? - BT

 

[bible truth]

No problem. LDS Christ in a nutshell can be found in 2 Cor 5:21, which states, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

Hey Oregonian Aqualung,

I have two questions for you:

1. Do you think that the bible verse 2 Corinthians 5:21 is complete and sufficent revelation to proclaim the gospel of God?

2. What do you think it means to be made the righteousness of God in him?

Thanks for your answers,
BT

 

[Aqualung]

Hey Oregonian Aqualung
I have two questions for you:
1. Do you think that the bible verse 2 Corinthians 5:21 is complete and sufficent revelation to proclaim the gospel of God?

It is complete and sufficient to proclaim the purpose of sending Christ because, after all, that is what it says. But, I have a feeling that even you wouldn't abandon your Bible and only teach this one verse, would you? After all, it says nothing about our relationship to God, or Christ's relationship to God, or any of that. All it says tells is Christ's mission.

2. What do you think it means to be made the righteousness of God in him?

That Christ was righteous because he fulfilled God's commands.

 

[bible truth]

Let's start here and work backwards, BT. [/font]

For some reason, you seem to think you need to ask me to something I would not do otherwise. Can you give me one good reason why I would not be honest with you? What on earth would I stand to gain my misrepresenting my own beliefs? What possible reason would I have for telling you that my Church teaches one thing when, in fact, it teaches something entirely different? And when have I ever been less than honest with you? I clearly have many shortcomings, but let me be perfectly clear about one thing: Dishonesty, hypocrisy and attempting to deceive are not among them.

I honestly believe that the northern group would have a very good understanding of who Jesus was and a fairly good understanding of His gospel. I believe the southern group would have a better understanding of who Jesus was and a far more comprehensive and thorough understanding of His gospel. I believe that both groups would believe in the same Jesus and the same gospel; I just believe that the southern group would have additional knowledge the northern group would not have.

Hey Katzpur,

It's very difficult to understand official LDS doctrine. I have spoken to many Mormon missionaries, as well as older elders in the LDS church over a 14 year perioid. Some of the answers that I get on this site are different than the ones I received from Mormon missionaries and other LDS memebers. It is not my hobby to follow the changes of doctrine of the LDS church. Please be patient with me.

Let’s back get to our scenario of the missionaries. Let's say after missionaries left, the northern and southern groups were completely wiped out from a Tsunami.

Half of the northern group received the bible only gospel and perished from the tidal wave. The other half of the northern group rejected the gospel according to scripture alone and also perished.

The southern group heard the "Fullness of the gospel”. Half of the southern group received Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God. The other half rejected the "Fullness of the gospel” and perished.

Where would the four groups of people end up? Help me out on 2nd, 3rd heaven in regards to Mormon doctrine. What about the second chance someone gets in the next life? How does baptism of the dead work out in this scenario? - BT

 

[bible truth]

It is complete and sufficient to proclaim the purpose of sending Christ because, after all, that is what it says. But, I have a feeling that even you wouldn't abandon your Bible and only teach this one verse, would you? After all, it says nothing about our relationship to God, or Christ's relationship to God, or any of that. All it says tells is Christ's mission.



That Christ was righteous because he fulfilled God's commands.

Hey Aqualung,

Did you represent the official LDS interpretation of 2 Cor 5:21? We definitely believe in a different gospel and different Christ, if this is the official LDS interpretation of 2 Cor 5:21.

What divides the LDS church from evangelical Christians is really "the person and work of Christ". We honestly have two different good news of God. Do you want to discuss the differences of the two gospels? - BT

 

[Bishka]

We honestly have two different good news of God. Do you want to discuss the differences of the two gospels? - BT

No, you do. You just refuse to see what we believe.

 

[Comprehend]

hey,

Here you go:

Posts 150, 151, 154, 167, and 169.

Bible truth? you asked for my posts so you could respond to them.... remember?

I'm still waiting...

 

[strengthofthepower]

To answer this question you have to know what the word christ or christian means. Jesus Christ is not the son of God's name it's a title. It means Anointed Savior, Jesus means Savior and Christ means Anointed. So the son of Mary was the anointed savior and the son of God no less. So those that followed him and his teachings were called Christians at Antioch (Acts 11:26) or "anointed ones". Which is what the word Christian means. These first Christians were the Israelites. Since the Apostles were only to go to the Israelites that were scattered abroad (Matt. 10:5-6) the only people that could call themselves the "anointed ones" or Christians were the Israelites that believed on Christ.

So in short unless you are an Israelite you cannot be a christian since Christ himself said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt 15:24). To learn more about who the Israelites are check the link below.