Are Mormons Christians?

[Aqualung]

Hi, for the sake of me (who is still seeking what I believe), what is your belief of the atonement then and how does i differ from the LDS version as you state it does? From what I read of it, it doesnt sound different to what I understand most christians to believe in!

Yeah, I already asked that question...

Bible Truth - We should have a debate, one-on-one or something (I'm busy, too, so we would be equally disadvantaged) where I debate mormon doctrine from Bible alone and you debate your doctrine from Bible alone. I think that would be fun.

 

[bible truth]

Hi, for the sake of me (who is still seeking what I believe), what is your belief of the atonement then and how does i differ from the LDS version as you state it does? From what I read of it, it doesnt sound different to what I understand most christians to believe in!

Hi laws,

Thank you for your question. I have posted a link for you to print out and read. I also posted the link of the source it came from. Please continue to ask questions!- BT

http://www.t4g.org/T4TG-statement.pdf

http://www.t4g.org/

 

[bible truth]

Yeah, I already asked that question...

Bible Truth - We should have a debate, one-on-one or something (I'm busy, too, so we would be equally disadvantaged) where I debate mormon doctrine from Bible alone and you debate your doctrine from Bible alone. I think that would be fun.

I would love to! Maybe Jonny can let you join in our one on one debate. The debate can be Jonny and you verses Paul and me? Paul is in England; therefore, we are on different time zones. I'm confident we will be proclaiming the same gospel revealed in Scripture alone.

Your friend in the Christ (revealed in Scripture alone),
BT

 

[Aqualung]

I would love to! Maybe Jonny can let you join in our one on one debate. The debate can be Jonny and you verses Paul and me? Paul is in England; therefore, we are on different time zones. I'm confident we will be proclaiming the same gospel revealed in Scripture alone.

Your friend in the Christ (revealed in Scripture alone),

No, I would rather have this be a completely seperate debate, and a one-on-one debate - seperate both from this one, from jonny's, and from our plan of having a more controlled group debate. It would keep it from getting so tangled, and I'm fairly individualistic anyway.

If you're down with that, how about I start a one-on-one debate thread?

 

[Gentoo]

Thanks for sharing Gentoo.

Maybe your postings are not appropriate for this Thead?

Why? Because I'm not Christian?

::hums::

::waiting::

 

[Halcyon]

Why? Because I'm not Christian?

No, it's because you're a penguin. That chicken disguise is fooling nobody...

 

[bible truth]

No, I would rather have this be a completely seperate debate, and a one-on-one debate - seperate both from this one, from jonny's, and from our plan of having a more controlled group debate. It would keep it from getting so tangled, and I'm fairly individualistic anyway.

If you're down with that, how about I start a one-on-one debate thread?

Hey Aqualung,

I feel honored with your request. You know, I'm just one of many evangelicals on this site. I know Paul is very solid in the biblical faith. However, since you have Oregonian roots, I'll have to say yes. I'm originally from southern California from a place called Temecula. The Temecula Valley was considered the west coast Bible belt. The LDS community was also very present in that area. I have coached their kids in Little League, basketball, etc. I also worked for as a Real Estate Appraiser in Hemet. Do you know Brian Shumway out there? He was the owner of the Real Estate Appraiser shop. All of the employees that he hired were from his LDS Church with the exception of the secretary and me. I used to go surfing with Brian and his kids. I believe you mentioned something about Calvinism, correct? You know, the link that I posted regarding the gospel, those who signed it are all Evangelical Christain who are also Calvinist. Please start the one on one post. - BT

 

[Gentoo]

No, it's because you're a penguin. That chicken disguise is fooling nobody...

Don't let it get out! I haven't stolen the diamond yet...

 

[bible truth]

::hums::

::waiting::

Yes, that's my reasoning.

 

[Gentoo]

Yes, that's my reasoning.

So what you're saying is that I can't ask questions on an open forum to help clarify your beliefs and form an understanding of other faiths, including LDS because I'm pagan?

 

[Katzpur]

Hey Katzpur,

I didn't mean to ignore this question. I'm sorry. Your question is the same debate that I can have with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians. I can have this same debate with Muslums and Athesist too. The question we are discussing has to do with our view of Scripture (Bible). What is your view of Scripture? Do you have a high view of Scripture or a lower view? I believe in the Sufficiency of Scripture. I believe everything is tested in the light of Scripture. God tells us to examine and test all things. Since Roman Catholics, Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants believe the Bible to be the Word of God, we have a common source to discern and judge spiritual truths.

Katzpur, in addition to our common belief in the Bible, you also believe in "prophet succession". I personally believe this LDS doctrine was copied from the Roman Catholic doctrine of "apostolic succession". I bet the Eastern Orthodox faith has a similar authority too. The Quaran and Islam are also similar to Mormonism in regards to authority and extra-biblical revelation. The LDS faith and Islam both have a prophet and angel from God to give significant revelation that changes the faith found in the Bible alone.

If we discuss things in addition to Biblical revelation, whose extra-biblical revelation should I embrace? Additional extra-biblical revelation:

1. LDS - Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, Price of Great Pearl, prophet succession, Prophet Joseph Smith, Angel Moroni.

2. Roman Catholicism: Sacred written and oral tradition, apostolic succession.

3. Islam: Quran and revelation of prophet Mohamed, angel revelation

4. Eastern Orthodox: (help James!)

5 Atheism: rejects the bible from being revelation from God.

Please let me know if you understand what I am saying. Sola Scriptura gives the Bible as the final authority as truth. However, there is no such thing as private interpretation. The Bible has one correct interpretation which is God’s interpretation. We all know in part. However, God has elected specific sinners to be adopted as His redeemed children. He gives his adopted Children the Spirit of God for spiritual discernment. God the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer and not in the religious institution. A particular religious institution does not exclusively have the Holy Spirit. Please read 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2. - BT

I'm sorry, BT, but I'm just having a really hard time trying to figure our why my question is such a difficult one for you to answer. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with what I asked you:

Where in the Bible are we told that it alone contains all of what God would have us know? Where does it claim to be a complete record of everything Christ taught? Where does it claim to the final authority and where does it say that God has nothing more to say and that everything He wanted to end up in the Bible actually got there?

So far, you have told me what you believe in terms of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. What you have failed to do is provide me with evidence from the Bible that supports your acceptance of this doctrine.

Do you need to have me further clarify what I'm looking for or what?

 

[Halcyon]

So what you're saying is that I can't ask questions on an open forum to help clarify your beliefs and form an understanding of other faiths, including LDS because I'm pagan?

Gentoo mate, the guy is trying to convince a religious group that they don't believe what they believe, are you really surprised by this --^

 

[Katzpur]

James has been kind to answer my question about Catholic Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox). As you can see, Eastern Orthodox has an authority similar to "apostolic succession" and "prophet succession".

FYI, the doctrine in known as "Apostolic Succession" in Mormonism, too. We believe that Christ leads His earthly Church today through a prophet and twelve apostles, just as He did anciently.

Do you understand why I believe in Sola Scriptura?

No, but if I stick around long enough, maybe I'll get lucky.

 

[Gentoo]

Gentoo mate, the guy is trying to convince a religious group that they don't believe what they believe, are you really surprised by this --^

Call me naive, but I believe in the goodness of all people... despite how many times I'm proven wrong.

Of course, that's not going to stop me... I'm quite the stubborn little penguin

 

[bible truth]

FYI, the doctrine in known as "Apostolic Succession" in Mormonism, too. We believe that Christ leads His earthly Church today through a prophet and twelve apostles, just as He did anciently. [/font]

No, but if I stick around long enough, maybe I'll get lucky.

Hey Katzpur,

Here is the issue at hand. God cannot contradict Himself. To say that God contradicts Himself is to call God evil. We agree that God is light, and in Him, there is no darkness at all. We both believe the Bible to be the Word of God. I use the Bible alone to discern what is true and is from God. Here is the alternative. I have three organizations who claim "Apostolic Succession". They all contradict each other regarding essential doctrines. Sola Scriptura is the only way to discern truth outside organizations claiming final authority. Does that make sense? This is one of the major issues of the protestant reformation. Who defines truth, Scripture alone or the Roman Catholic magestrium? The protestant reformation is grounded in Sola Scriptura because we believe Rome left the Biblical gospel. This is the same truth applied to the LDS claims too. The only differences between the LDS claim to eliminate the apostolic claims of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox is to say all of historical traditional Christianity is apostate. I think James would debate that particular issue with you. I know Roman Catholics would debate you too in regards to true “Apostolic Succession”. While the three organizations fight for the rights of “Apostolic Succession”, we Evangelical Christians will use our energy studying the Bible to understand the will of God, and by the grace of God alone, walk in it. Evangelical Christians know true authority rest with the Triune God alone, who reveals His will through the Scriptures alone. All religious organizations are fallible.

1. Eastern Orthodox (Claimed as oldest organization with apostolic succession)

2. Roman Catholicism (Claimed as the oldest organization with apostolic succession)

3. Mormonism (Claimed as the oldest organization with apostolic succession)

I choose none of the above. I choose the ‘Word of God’ over any religious organization. - BT

 

[Katzpur]

Hey Katzpur,

Here is the issue at hand. God cannot contradict Himself. To say that God contradicts Himself is to call God evil. We agree that God is light, and in Him, there is no darkness at all. We both believe the Bible to be the Word of God. I use the Bible alone to discern what is true and is from God. Here is the alternative. I have three organizations who claim "Apostolic Succession". They all contradict each other regarding essential doctrines. Sola Scriptura is the only way to discern truth outside organizations claiming final authority. Does that make sense?

No, it flat out doesn't make sense and you still haven't told me where the Bible supports the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. LDS doctrines don't contradict anything in the Bible, and you can't give me one single solitary example of where they do.

 

[Comprehend]

hey,

Here you go:

Posts 150, 151, 154, 167, and 169.

bible truth,

you seem to have difficulty seeing my posts although you have twice promised to respond. No offense but I am beginning to doubt the value of your word. I used the big red letters to help you notice my post.

The posts you have still failed to respond to despite your indications otherwise are:

150, 151, 154, 167, and 169.

What is the hold up? you keep asking everyone else to be honest yet it looks like you need to take a bit of your own advice...

 

[bible truth]

No, it flat out doesn't make sense and you still haven't told me where the Bible supports the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. LDS doctrines don't contradict anything in the Bible, and you can't give me one single solitary example of where they do.[/color][/font][/color]

Hey Katzpur,

This would be my answer why you don't understand what I am proclaming. It is not meant to be an insult. It is my Biblical answer why you don't see things like I do. I think you almost need to study the protestant reformation for what I am proclaiming to you. Sola Scriptura is a historical debate for authority that is rooted in the protestant reformation. The principle of the protestant reformation of Sola Scriptura applies to the LDS church too. - BT

1 Corinthians 2

1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

Wisdom From the Spirit

6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Gentoo]

What is the hold up? you keep asking everyone else to be honest yet it looks like you need to take a bit of your own advice...

Well, at least I got an answer as to why I'm being ignored... good to know that my questions and opinions mean nothing to him simply because I'm not Christian...

 

[bible truth]

bible truth,

you seem to have difficulty seeing my posts although you have twice promised to respond. No offense but I am beginning to doubt the value of your word. I used the big red letters to help you notice my post.

The posts you have still failed to respond to despite your indications otherwise are:

150, 151, 154, 167, and 169.

What is the hold up? you keep asking everyone else to be honest yet it looks like you need to take a bit of your own advice...

Hey Comprehend,

I choose not to discuss and debate with you due to your aggressive attitude. I will continue to discuss and debate with Katzpur, Jonny, and Aqualung because they are more graceful in our discussions. Sorry my friend, maybe Paul or other evangelicals will debate with you. - BT