Are Mormons Christians?

[gingernater]

A list of questions and comments that Bible Truth is unwilling (or afraid) to answer:

• Why he insists on insulting our religion by refusing to use our proper name “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” but takes “Jesus Christ” out of our name and calls us “The Church of Latter Day Saints”

• What he means by “extra-biblical revelation”. Since the revelation received by Moses was “extra-biblical revelation” yet he accepts it while rejecting ours. In fact, all revelation recorded in the bible is “extra-biblical” as the bible didn’t exist. The very nature of revelation means that it is adding to what already existed. Each time God revealed something to man, it added to what was already there. Before Moses, there were no 10 commandments, after Moses, there were. What criteria does Bible Truth use to determine which revelation he accepts and which is “extra-biblical”.

• How the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has “changed the gospel”.

• Whether Bible Truth was lying when he said that the Roman Catholic version of Jesus Christ was mutually exclusive of his version of Jesus Christ? Or was he lying when he later told a Catholic that RC’s, EO’s, and Protestants all have the same Christ (it’s just mormons who don’t).

• Where in the Bible does it teach the Trinity. Specifically, his professed understanding that:

because I didn’t find that in the bible.

• Why he claims that all he needs can be found in the bible and then proceeded to use websites rather than scriptures to make his argument.

• What is the “Historical Biblical Church”?

• Since all Christian faiths have different doctrine, practices, and beliefs, while BT has claimed that only one church can be “right”. Which denomination of Christian church is the “right” one?

• Since all bible translations are different and there can only be one correct translation of the word of God, which translation of the bible is the “right” one? What evidence does he have for this?

• Which denomination does BT belong to? (and is he Pentecostal).

• Has BT actually read the Book of Mormon?

• Why BT continually feels the need to ask Mormons to “be honest” as if he assumes we are liars.

• Is bible truth a user that has been previously banned under a different user name who used to write posts in letter format, signing each and who also insisted on calling our church by the same wrong name just like Bible Truth does? Hmmm, I wonder…

• What would a short checklist of criteria be to qualify as a Christian according to Bible Truth?

• Bible Truth claims to have been “granted salvation” in his late twenties. I would like to know how he knows/knew that he was granted salvation. Did he receive “extra biblical revelation”? How does he know his revelation was from God and not an evil angel of light?

• Why he believes Mormons are called Mormons because of the angel Moroni? (since he claims vast knowledge about our church yet is not aware that we are named Mormons after a guy named……. Mormon!!!) who would have thunk it.

i could go ahead and answer some of these questions for you but i dont have the time at the moment. Do you have a email address that i could email you my answers?. and i also think that some of the questions are just stuipd but ill answer them.

 

[Bishka]

i could go ahead and answer some of these questions for you but i dont have the time at the moment. Do you have a email address that i could email you my answers?. and i also think that some of the questions are just stuipd but ill answer them.

How about answering them in the thread. One at a time. Take your time if needed.

~Becky

 

[Comprehend]

i could go ahead and answer some of these questions for you but i dont have the time at the moment. Do you have a email address that i could email you my answers?. and i also think that some of the questions are just stuipd but ill answer them.

actually I wanted Bible Truth's view as the questions were all in response to things he has said. Feel free to post whatever you want though.

Why would I give you an email address to send your answers to? This forum is to debate things in public. Besides, I hardly know you. :flirt:

You may think that some of the questions are "stuipd" but they all have a purpose. A seemingly "stuipd" question now may kick you in the teeth later... however, "ill" let you decide how and when you want to participate. Unlike the Brave Toaster, "ill" talk with anyone.

 

[bible truth]

actually I wanted Bible Truth's view as the questions were all in response to things he has said. Feel free to post whatever you want though.

Why would I give you an email address to send your answers to? This forum is to debate things in public. Besides, I hardly know you. :flirt:

You may think that some of the questions are "stuipd" but they all have a purpose. A seemingly "stuipd" question now may kick you in the teeth later... however, "ill" let you decide how and when you want to participate. Unlike the Brave Toaster, "ill" talk with anyone.

Good morning Comprehend,

1 peter 3:18 compels me to discuss and debate with you.

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 1 Peter 3:18

First of all, I apologize for not using the correct name of your church organization. There is no hidden agenda for using a shortcut name, with the exception of saving on typing. I have no problem addressing your religious organization as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”. Do you feel offended if I just use LDS? I have had many Mormon friends who just use LDS to describe themselves.

I personally think denominational names are meaningless in regards to true Christianity. The only truth that matters is being united to Christ by faith alone. I sincerely believe belonging to any religious institution (Roman Catholicism, Baptist, LDS, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orthodox Catholic, etc) does not necessarily reconcile you to God. Membership to a particular church organization saves no one. Jesus confirmed this truth by teaching about the wheat and tears, and sheeps and goats in religious institutions. It is Christ who saves and not our church membership to a particular religious organization. When you appear before the almighty God, are you going to confess Christ, or your membership to the religious insitution known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”? Why should God let you into His eternal presence? Is it your church membership that will be your key to entering heaven? My key to enter the presence of God is Christ alone. I believe 'the person and work of Christ' on behalf of sinners is God's only way to enter His eternal presence.

I'll be honest Comprehend, you write very aggressively with much apparent anger. If you proclaim to be united to Christ, the verse 1 Peter 3:18 applies to you too.

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect... 1 Peter 3:18

I will answer your questions when I'm able to find some free time. It's my son's birthday today. I also need to work for most of the day too. I plan to check the ‘one on one’ debates with Jonny, Aqualung, and Katzpur before I answer your questions too. Be patient my friend, I'll try to answer your questions earlier next week. If what the “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” claims to be true, please don't feel so threatened by what others believe or proclaim. I have learned over the years ...that God's truth can stand up to error and attacks from false teaching. God's truth is objective and really doesn't really need to be defended. I speak the truth in love, because God commands me to proclaim His truth. Whatever God commands, I will pray that God will enable me by His grace alone, to do what He commands (paraphrase of Augustine).

Your friend united to Christ by faith alone,
BT

 

[Comprehend]

Good morning Comprehend,

1 peter 3:18 compels me to discuss and debate with you.

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 1 Peter 3:18

First of all, I apologize for not using the correct name of your church organization. There is no hidden agenda for using a shortcut name, with the exception of saving on typing. I have no problem addressing your religious organization as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”. Do you feel offended if I just use LDS? I have had many Mormon friends who just use LDS to describe themselves.

I personally think denominational names are meaningless in regards to true Christianity. The only truth that matters is being united to Christ by faith alone. I sincerely believe belonging to any religious institution (Roman Catholicism, Baptist, LDS, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orthodox Catholic, etc) does not necessarily reconcile you to God. Membership to a particular church organization saves no one. Jesus confirmed this truth by teaching about the wheat and tears, and sheeps and goats in religious institutions. It is Christ who saves and not our church membership to a particular religious organization. When you appear before the almighty God, are you going to confess Christ, or your membership to the religious insitution known as “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”? Why should God let you into His eternal presence? Is it your church membership that will be your key to entering heaven? My key to enter the presence of God is Christ alone. I believe 'the person and work of Christ' on behalf of sinners is God's only way to enter His eternal presence.

I'll be honest Comprehend, you write very aggressively with much apparent anger. I you proclaim to be united to Christ, the verse 1 Peter 3:18 applies to you too.

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect... 1 Peter 3:18

I will answer your questions when I'm able to find some free time. It's my son's birthday today. I also need to work for most of the day too. I plan to check the ‘one on one’ debates with Jonny, Aqualung, and Katzpur before I answer your questions too. Be patient my friend, I'll try to answer your questions earlier next week. If what the “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” claims to be true, please don't feel so threatened by what others believe or proclaim. I have learned over the years ...that God's truth can stand up to error and attacks from false teaching. God's truth is objective and really doesn't really need to be defended. I speak the truth in love, because God commands me to proclaim His truth. Whatever God commands, I will pray that God will enable me by His grace alone, to do what He commands (paraphrase of Augustine).

Your friend united to Christ by faith alone,
BT

Awesome.

Glad I could shame you into responding.

Why didn't 1 Peter compel you to answer me before?

I'll hold my breath until next week...:sleep:

 

[bible truth]

Awesome.

Glad I could shame you into responding.

Why didn't 1 Peter compel you to answer me before?

I'll hold my breath until next week...:sleep:

Hey Comprehend,

I didn't think my views matter to you guys that much. My views and opinions are wothless. God's objective truth is all that matters. Here is the pure milk of the Word for you to contemplate until we continue next week. - BT

John 8

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
"Who are you?" they asked.

"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."
"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

The Claims of Jesus About Himself

The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

 

[Katzpur]

BT,

Since your post was addressed to Comprehend and not to me, I probably should keep my opinion to myself. I'm sure Comprehend will want to respond to your post, but I honestly don't know what you expect him to say. We Latter-day Saints believe those verses every bit as much as you do. The verses you have chosen to underline and put in boldface type clearly are directed at us. You clearly believe that we do not follow Christ, that we do not hold to his teachings or even understand them, that we do not belong to God, etc. etc. etc. But that is entirely subjective. You haven't given one particle of evidence to prove what you are implying. I see the biggest difference between what you believe and what we believe as this: We are willing to let God be the judge as to who is His and who isn't. You seem to have appointed yourself as His counselor.

 

[Aqualung]

I personally think denominational names are meaningless in regards to true Christianity. The only truth that matters is being united to Christ by faith alone. I sincerely believe belonging to any religious institution (Roman Catholicism, Baptist, LDS, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orthodox Catholic, etc) does not necessarily reconcile you to God. Membership to a particular church organization saves no one. Jesus confirmed this truth by teaching about the wheat and tears, and sheeps and goats in religious institutions.

But he denied it by preaching a church structure. Furthermore, Paul denied it on multiple occaisions by preaching a church structure.

 

[bible truth]

BT,

Since your post was addressed to Comprehend and not to me, I probably should keep my opinion to myself. I'm sure Comprehend will want to respond to your post, but I honestly don't know what you expect him to say. We Latter-day Saints believe those verses every bit as much as you do. The verses you have chosen to underline and put in boldface type clearly are directed at us. You clearly believe that we do not follow Christ, that we do not hold to his teachings or even understand them, that we do not belong to God, etc. etc. etc. But that is entirely subjective. You haven't given one particle of evidence to prove what you are implying. I see the biggest difference
between what you believe and what we believe as this: We are willing to let God be the judge as to who is His and who isn't. You seem to have appointed yourself as His counselor.

Hey Katzpur,

I thought we had our own debate? I only posted here because Comprehend insisted that I answer him. 1 Peter 3:18 compels me to respond to him. I feel that many of the Mormons are trying to reinterpret my postings according to their own personal bias. Communicating through Threads has its shortcomings too. You know, I'm suppose to be working my job that supports my family today...lol. It's also a day to celebrate my son's birthday.

Please don't take things so personal. It really doesn't matter what I say. God's truth stands alone, apart from all of our views and shortcomings. The Apostle Paul declared that we know in part. My Scriptures and post applies to everybody who is not united to Christ. Those united to Christ (converted) is only known by God. Therefore, Scripture posts also apply to unconverted Christians who attend protestant churches too. Here is my systematic theology in a nutshell. We are all born into this world united to Adam. By God's pleasure, purpose, and sufficient grace, God removes certain sinners from their union with the 1st Adam, and unites them to the second Adam through faith alone. Our union to Christ is central and essential. Please study Romans Chapter 5. I also believe in Remnant Theology... a remnant chosen by grace throughout redemptive history.

In summary: There are two groups of humanity:

1. Those united to the First Adam
2. Those united to the Second Adam

I make no distinction by religious affiliation, organization, or denomination. You already posted that the LDS church is just another Christian denomination, correct? I’m glad you have great passion. I think if we discuss official doctrine, some of the personal feelings will be minimized. I believe the goal is to understand what the other person believes and why? The Word of God is living and active, sharper than a double edged sword (Hebrews- paraphrased); it is suppose to pierce all of us. God uses His Word to sanctify His children too (John 17:17). Since the LDS church claims apostolic succession, I am testing the official claims of the LDS church with the light of Scripture. I would be doing the same exact thing when I debate with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox too. This is the heart of Sola Scriptura.

Please post Scripture, bold, and underline as you believe is appropriate. You cannot offend me. I hope this helps. Please check out bible.com. It’s a great tool to cut and paste bible verses. You can post it in King James old English too. - BT

 

[nutshell]

Hey Katzpur,

I thought we had our own debate? I only posted here because Comprehend insisted that I answer him. 1 Peter 3:18 compels me to respond to him. I feel that many of the Mormons are trying to reinterpret my postings according to their own personal bias. Communicating through Threads has its shortcomings too. You know, I'm suppose to be working my job that supports my family today...lol. It's also a day to celebrate my son's birthday.

Please don't take things so personal. It really doesn't matter what I say. God's truth stands alone, apart from all of our views and shortcomings. The Apostle Paul declared that we know in part. My Scriptures and post applies to everybody who is not united to Christ. Those united to Christ (converted) is only known by God. Therefore, Scripture posts also apply to unconverted Christians who attend protestant churches too. Here is my systematic theology in a nutshell. We are all born into this world united to Adam. By God's pleasure, purpose, and sufficient grace, God removes certain sinners from their union with the 1st Adam, and unites them to the second Adam through faith alone. Our union to Christ is central and essential. Please study Romans Chapter 5. I also believe in Remnant Theology... a remnant chosen by grace throughout redemptive history.

In summary: There are two groups of humanity:

1. Those united to the First Adam
2. Those united to the Second Adam

I make no distinction by religious affiliation, organization, or denomination. You already posted that the LDS church is just another Christian denomination, correct? I’m glad you have great passion. I think if we discuss official doctrine, some of the personal feelings will be minimized. I believe the goal is to understand what the other person believes and why? The Word of God is living and active, sharper than a double edged sword (Hebrews- paraphrased); it is suppose to pierce all of us. God uses His Word to sanctify His children too (John 17:17). Since the LDS church claims apostolic succession, I am testing the official claims of the LDS church with the light of Scripture. I would be doing the same exact thing when I debate with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox too. This is the heart of Sola Scriptura.

Please post Scripture, bold, and underline as you believe is appropriate. You cannot offend me. I hope this helps. Please check out bible.com. It’s a great tool to cut and paste bible verses. You can post it in King James old English too. - BT

Guess what? www.scriptures.lds.org has the exact same King James verses. Why? Because we believe in the Bible! Your creating a difference where one doesn't exist. The only difference is in interpretation and there is nothing that makes yours or ours more or less valid than the other. Truth comes from the Father.

 

[bible truth]

Guess what? www.scriptures.lds.org has the exact same King James verses. Why? Because we believe in the Bible! Your creating a difference where one doesn't exist. The only difference is in interpretation and there is nothing that makes yours or ours more or less valid than the other. Truth comes from the Father.

Summary of beliefs

Joseph Smith was asked about the basic beliefs of the Church. He summarized the teachings and doctrines in 13 basic points which are known as The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Hey Nutshell,

Maybe this will help you understand? The LDS church proclaims 'The restoration of the apostate Christian Church', correct? Evangelical Christians reject the posting above about the LDS's official statement of beliefs. The differences are so great, an Evangelical Christian cannot call you a brother or sister in Christ. We love our God too much to compromise His essential truths. On the one hand, you claim the Bible alone Christians are apostate. On the other hand, you say we are the same. The members of the LDS church have to reconcile these two basic proclamation of the LDS church. I know there is great tension for you to reconcile these two basic tenants of your LDS Faith. - BT

 

[nutshell]

Summary of beliefs

Joseph Smith was asked about the basic beliefs of the Church. He summarized the teachings and doctrines in 13 basic points which are known as The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Hey Nutshell,

Maybe this will help you understand? The LDS church proclaims 'The restoration of the apostate Christian Church', correct? Evangelical Christians reject the posting above about the LDS's official statement of beliefs. The difference are so great, an Evangelical Christian cannot call you a brother or sister in Christ. We love our God too much to compromise His essential truths. On the one hand, you claim the Bible alone Christians are apostate. On the other hand, you say we are the same. The members of the LDS church have to reconcile these two basic proclamation of the LDS church. I know there is great tension for you to reconcile these two basic tenants of your LDS Faith. - BT

I am without tension. Why don't you respond to the fact that we both believe in the Bible, there is only a difference of interpretation - neither which is more or less valid than the other? Anything to say about that?

 

[bible truth]

I am without tension. Why don't you respond to the fact that we both believe in the Bible, there is only a difference of interpretation - neither which is more or less valid than the other? Anything to say about that?

Hey Nutshell,

The official position of the LDS church is "apostolic succession". The Roman Catholic Church also claims 'apostolic succession' too. Your statement above actually confirms 'Sola Scriptura’. Do you understand what 'apostolic succession" means in regards to "Final Authority" from God? Either Joseph Smith was a true prophet from God. Or Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Your faith and claims hinges on this one fact. This is the same fact for Islam too. Was Mohamed a prophet from God, or was he a false prophet? Can we agree on this? - BT

 

[Katzpur]

Hey Katzpur,

I thought we had our own debate?

We do. I've been reading your posts and commenting on them. I also intend to continue debating on this thread. I hope that's okay with you.

Here is my systematic theology in a nutshell. We are all born into this world united to Adam. By God's pleasure, purpose, and sufficient grace, God removes certain sinners from their union with the 1st Adam, and unites them to the second Adam through faith alone. Our union to Christ is central and essential. Please study Romans Chapter 5. I also believe in Remnant Theology... a remnant chosen by grace throughout redemptive history.

This one paragraph is almost worthy of a thread of its own. If I were to comment on what you've just said, it would send this thread off in a different direction entirely.

In summary: There are two groups of humanity:

1. Those united to the First Adam
2. Those united to the Second Adam

I'm aware of only one Adam, so I would have to disagree with this statement.

You already posted that the LDS church is just another Christian denomination, correct?

Not that I recall. Could you direct me to the post in which I said that? If I did, in fact, describe us as "just another Christian denomination," I will edit my post to clarify what we believe in that regard. Briefly, we believe a Christian to be a follower of Jesus Christ. We don't believe that all Christians have exactly the same interpretation of the scriptures, but we don't exclude anyone from the Christian family on the basis of the fact that we may disagree with him in terms of certain doctrines.

 

[bible truth]

Summary of beliefs

Joseph Smith was asked about the basic beliefs of the Church. He summarized the teachings and doctrines in 13 basic points which are known as The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Dear Mormon friends,

Here is your summary of beliefs in reference to "The Article of Faith. This was and cut from paste from lds.org.

In the light of Scripture alone, Historical Biblical Christianity would reject at least 9 of the 13 points of the LDS Summary of Beliefs. Maybe we should test each point that is rejected by Scripture being the final authority in this Thread?

Can we do this on this Thread starting with point 2? - BT

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

 

[Gentoo]

I don't think you've answered just what "Historical Biblican Christianity" is yet. Why not help everyone out and tell us?

 

[bible truth]

We do. I've been reading your posts and commenting on them. I also intend to continue debating on this thread. I hope that's okay with you.

This one paragraph is almost worthy of a thread of its own. If I were to comment on what you've just said, it would send this thread off in a different direction entirely.

I'm aware of only one Adam, so I would have to disagree with this statement.

Not that I recall. Could you direct me to the post in which I said that? If I did, in fact, describe us as "just another Christian denomination," I will edit my post to clarify what we believe in that regard. Briefly, we believe a Christian to be a follower of Jesus Christ. We don't believe that all Christians have exactly the same interpretation of the scriptures, but we don't exclude anyone from the Christian family on the basis of the fact that we may disagree with him in terms of certain doctrines.

Hey Katzpur,

Here's the Bible challenge. You can use bible.com to find passages and verses. Please post two biblical passages regarding our two subjects. Does the bible speak of a 2nd Adam? Does Jesus tell the disciples why He speaks in parables? Here's a hint...look in Romans and Matthew. After this exercise, maybe we can understand the differences between ‘Sola Scriptura’ and “Apostolic Succession”. - BT

 

[Katzpur]

Here's the Bible challenge. You can use bible.com to find passages and verses.

Actually, I prefer this one: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/, but thanks for the suggestion.

Please post two biblical passages regarding our two subjects.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand which two subjects you're referring to.

Does the bible speak of a 2nd Adam?

Not that I am aware of.

Does Jesus tell the disciples why He speaks in parables?

Matthew 13:13, "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

Here's a hint...look in Romans and Matthew.

Thanks for the hint, but I actually know the scriptures pretty well myself.

After this exercise, maybe we can understand the differences between ‘Sola Scriptura’ and “Apostolic Succession”.

So far, I'm as much in the dark about what you're getting at as I ever was. I guess that's because I don't have ears to hear, huh? Try shouting a bit louder.

 

[bible truth]

Actually, I prefer this one: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/, but thanks for the suggestion.

Please post two biblical passages regarding our two subjects.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand which two subjects you're referring to.

Not that I am aware of.

Matthew 13:13, "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

Thanks for the hint, but I actually know the scriptures pretty well myself.

So far, I'm as much in the dark about what you're getting at as I ever was. I guess that's because I don't have ears to hear, huh? Try shouting a bit louder.
[/quote]

Hey Katzpur,

Okay, but your original answer regarding "why Jesus spoke in parables" did not include the main reason why Jesus spoke in parables. Please go back and read your original post answer in our one and one debate.

You also stated that you did not believe that the Bible spoke about a 2nd Adam, correct? I believe a proper understanding of this truth is essential in understanding and receiving the gospel of God, according to the Scriptures. Please look for the 2nd Adam in the book of Romans. - BT

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, but your original answer regarding "why Jesus spoke in parables" did not include the main reason why Jesus spoke in parables. Please go back and read your original post answer in our one and one debate.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to play word games with you. If you think I've missed the post, just tell me where and let's move on. My original answer stands. (Also, may I suggest that we separate the two debates in which we are now engaged. If you have a problem with one of my answers in our other debate, please say so there, and not here.)

You also stated that you did not believe that the Bible spoke about a 2nd Adam, correct? I believe a proper understanding of this truth is essential in understanding and receiving the gospel of God, according to the Scriptures. Please look for the 2nd Adam in the book of Romans.

The only reference to Adam in Romans is found in chapter 5, verse 14, which states: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Are you telling me that "the figure of him that was to come" is referring to a second Adam? If so, I disagree. I believe it is a clear reference to the Savior, Jesus Christ.