Are mystical experiences induced by psychedelics authentic?

[Yerda]

Hoping to do this without breaking the rules.

I found this paper recently:

Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs - PubMed

Results revealed significant shifts away from 'physicalist' or 'materialist' views, and towards panpsychism and fatalism, post use. With the exception of fatalism, these changes endured for at least 6 months, and were positively correlated with the extent of past psychedelic-use and improved mental-health outcomes. Path modelling suggested that the belief-shifts were moderated by impressionability at baseline and mediated by perceived emotional synchrony with others during the psychedelic experience. The observed belief-shifts post-psychedelic-use were consolidated by data from an independent controlled clinical trial. Together, these findings imply that psychedelic-use may causally influence metaphysical beliefs-shifting them away from 'hard materialism'.

The results suggest that psychedelics can alter beliefs about the nature of the world. One reason this may be true is that the experiences reported by users are often similar to reports of mystical experiences in the religious sense - ineffable understanding, profound connection, transcendence, paradoxiical or contradictory, overwhelming love. And often the impression that the world is not quite what was believed before.

Are experiences induced by psychedelics truly mystical in the way a person interested in mystical religious tradition might discuss?

 

[Heyo]

Hoping to do this without breaking the rules.

I found this paper recently:

Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs - PubMed

Results revealed significant shifts away from 'physicalist' or 'materialist' views, and towards panpsychism and fatalism, post use. With the exception of fatalism, these changes endured for at least 6 months, and were positively correlated with the extent of past psychedelic-use and improved mental-health outcomes. Path modelling suggested that the belief-shifts were moderated by impressionability at baseline and mediated by perceived emotional synchrony with others during the psychedelic experience. The observed belief-shifts post-psychedelic-use were consolidated by data from an independent controlled clinical trial. Together, these findings imply that psychedelic-use may causally influence metaphysical beliefs-shifting them away from 'hard materialism'.

The results suggest that psychedelics can alter beliefs about the nature of the world. One reason this may be true is that the experiences reported by users are often similar to reports of mystical experiences in the religious sense - ineffable understanding, profound connection, transcendence, paradoxiical or contradictory, overwhelming love. And often the impression that the world is not quite what was believed before.

Are experiences induced by psychedelics truly mystical in the way a person interested in mystical religious tradition might discuss?

I think they are. There is no major difference between hallucinations induced by external substances or internally created ones.

 

[Polymath257]

I find it interesting that taking a material substance and having it induce such experiences will move people *away* from hard materialism.

I also wonder if *all* religious experiences are ultimately explained as internal psychedelics working.

For example, NDEs have been linked to the action of a ketamine analog in the brain.

 

[Polymath257]

Please be advised that any discussion of personal use of psychedelics is against our rules.

Keep the discussion away from such.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I find it interesting that taking a material substance and having it induce such experiences will move people *away* from hard materialism.

Forget even taking a substance, I think people can have mystical experiences if they go to a mystical enough place, in the material world itself. I'm talking about reaching a waterfall on a jungle mountain, a thousand miles away from the cities, with a confluence of rare plant-life, frog song, animals, rainbows etc. I think most people don't really get deep enough into nature to even find something like that. I just mostly go between the bland suburbish town, and the factory floor. That kind of life will beat hard materialism into my head all day

Have you ever really been deep into nature, into a spot where the raw perception of it was overwhelming to you?

 

[RestlessSoul]

A friend of mine - no, it wasn’t me, and I didn’t endorse his choices - has recently returned from a shamanistic retreat in the Amazon, where he took part in a series of ayahuasca ceremonies. Ayahuasca is a plant containing a powerful psychedelic compound. He described his experiences as profound, deeply spiritual, life changing. He used the word epiphany. It struck me that he was describing experiences similar to those I have heard about from experienced practitioners of transcendental meditation.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I find it interesting that taking a material substance and having it induce such experiences will move people *away* from hard materialism.

I also wonder if *all* religious experiences are ultimately explained as internal psychedelics working.

For example, NDEs have been linked to the action of a ketamine analog in the brain.

Yeah, and all morality are different stances in different brains and therefore it is all objectively materialistically speaking.

Here is an idea. Stop doing metaphysics as a definition that is true of the world, just because you can define the world as material.

 

[stvdv]

Are experiences induced by psychedelics truly mystical in the way a person interested in mystical religious tradition might discuss?

Yes

When blockages in our system are removed, it's natural to have mystical experiences

Blockages can be removed by therapy, meditation, pranayama, exersizes (yoga) etc.

Some plants also have this effect.

Patanjali, A Hindu Master wrote about this, He said that this is possible, but he also advised to be careful as the herbal way is more karmic, meaning you can get really sick (vomit) and the process can be too much, if you are not spiritually advanced or physical weak.

Better to go the slow way, using meditation and fasting, as plants can be quite damaging if taken too much or if prepared in the wrong way. Many of such plants are toxic if taken raw even

But when done proper it is like a shortcut

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Yes

When blockages in our system are removed, it's natural to have mystical experiences

Blockages can be removed by therapy, meditation, pranayama, exersizes (yoga) etc.

Some plants also have this effect.

Patanjali, A Hindu Master wrote about this, He said that this is possible, but he also advised to be careful as the herbal way is more karmic, meaning you can get really sick (vomit) and the process can be too much, if you are not spiritually advanced or physical weak.

Better to go the slow way, using meditation and fasting, as plants can be quite damaging if taken too much or if prepared in the wrong way. Many of such plants are toxic if taken raw even

But when done proper it is like a shortcut

I'd add exhaustion, such as through sustained dancing or other physical and mental activity...but yes, different activities can result in changed states of consciousness...which are the openings through which we can experience the mystical...

 

[Yerda]

I find it interesting that taking a material substance and having it induce such experiences will move people *away* from hard materialism.

I also wonder if *all* religious experiences are ultimately explained as internal psychedelics working.

For example, NDEs have been linked to the action of a ketamine analog in the brain.

That's a fair point. It's almost the opposite of what we might expect. Like putting an electric guitar through some kind of modulating circuit and coming to the conclusion that the wonderful new sounds somehow indicate there's more than circuits going on.

 

[Quintessence]

I only have experience with one and not the other, which means I can't speak to the experience of substance-induced mystical experiences at all. In fact, I've had such amazing experiences without substances I don't really understand the appeal of them - they strike me as superfluous and unnecessary. I recognize that is unfair of me; indigenous cultures have a known record of using substances to facilitate mystical states. And it certainly wouldn't be fair of me to suggest that the experiences of such cultures are somehow less authentic than my own. Having not experienced both, I can't comment on how different (or not) they are from one another either.

What I can say is that substances are not necessary for mystical/religious experiences. Within my own tradition, I would personally question the authenticity of anything I experienced while under a drug-induced stupor. What limited experiences I have with alcohol taught me that it leads to similar states but with a greater loss of control. That strikes me as counterproductive for the kind of work that I do in the otherworlds - I need to be fully present and aware, able to navigate and react with my own faculties, and don't want drugs getting in the way. Would they actually get in the way as I'm suspecting they would? I don't know. With how much skill and experience I have now, it may well not make much difference.

 

[sun rise]

I am not allowed to fully answer the question. And the OP ignores such drugs used for medical purposes which is a different topic.

Are experiences induced by psychedelics truly mystical in the way a person interested in mystical religious tradition might discuss?

So let me just say that I know that what Meher Baba had to say on the topic is 100% accurate:

All so-called spiritual experiences generated by taking "mind-changing" drugs such as LSD, mescaline and psilocybin are superficial and add enormously to one's addiction to the deceptions of illusion which is but the shadow of Reality.
......
The experiences derived through the drugs are experiences by one in the gross world of the shadows of the subtle planes and are not continuous. The experiences of the subtle sphere by one on the subtle planes are continuous, but even these experiences are of illusion, for Reality is beyond them. And so, though LSD may lead one to feel a better man personally, the feeling of having had a glimpse of Reality may not only lull one into a false security but also will in the end derange one's mind. Although LSD is not an addiction-forming drug one can become attached to the experiences arising from its use and one gets tempted to use it in increasing doses, again and again, in the hope of deeper and deeper experiences. But eventually this causes madness or death.
...
But there is no drug that can promote the aspirant's progress — nor ever alleviate the sufferings of separation from his beloved God. LOVE is the only propeller and the only remedy. The aspirant should love God with all his heart till he forgets himself and recognizes his beloved God in himself and others.
...
All the experiences even of spiritual aspirants on the Path to God-realization (gotten in the natural course of involution of consciousness) are of the domain of Illusion and are ephemeral and absolutely unimportant; how much more illusory and distracting are the experiences through substances compounded in a laboratory which have the semblance of those of the aspirant on the Spiritual Path! The one and only true experience is the experience of the Truth, the Reality; for once the realization of God is attained it remains a continual and never-ending experience.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Hoping to do this without breaking the rules.

I found this paper recently:

Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs - PubMed

Results revealed significant shifts away from 'physicalist' or 'materialist' views, and towards panpsychism and fatalism, post use. With the exception of fatalism, these changes endured for at least 6 months, and were positively correlated with the extent of past psychedelic-use and improved mental-health outcomes. Path modelling suggested that the belief-shifts were moderated by impressionability at baseline and mediated by perceived emotional synchrony with others during the psychedelic experience. The observed belief-shifts post-psychedelic-use were consolidated by data from an independent controlled clinical trial. Together, these findings imply that psychedelic-use may causally influence metaphysical beliefs-shifting them away from 'hard materialism'.

The results suggest that psychedelics can alter beliefs about the nature of the world. One reason this may be true is that the experiences reported by users are often similar to reports of mystical experiences in the religious sense - ineffable understanding, profound connection, transcendence, paradoxiical or contradictory, overwhelming love. And often the impression that the world is not quite what was believed before.

Are experiences induced by psychedelics truly mystical in the way a person interested in mystical religious tradition might discuss?

Dear Yerda,

Our human brain is capable of experiencing what it encounters from a multitude of different perspectives that we normally don’t access because, evolutionarily speaking, the one we do use (the physical perspective), suffices for - and indeed, may be best suited to - our survival as species.

Mystical perspectives are abstract ones. That is; what is experienced is interpreted in an abstract, non physical manner where the language we use to communicate about our usual, physical experiences, loses its meaning. That’s why it is nearly impossible to accurately describe a mystical experience to someone who has not had one.

Like attempting to describe an certain emotion to someone who’s not felt it themselves, abstract imterpretations can only be spoken of in metaphor and parable and the accuracy of someone else’s understanding of what is being communicated, rests entirely on what those metaphors/ parables mean to them.

It is a tricky business, which is why many will rather refrain from attempting to describe abstract experiences than risk giving others an incorrect or harmful idea.

Though it is likely that certain chemicals and drugs will facilitate the brain’s access to evolutionarily “dormant” ways of experiencing what is, I personally would for several reasons, not wish to promote the method.

I think it’s important to ask oneself why one wants to tap into other interpretations of what is and to consider the fact that some people who do this through drugs, cannot find their way back to our “regular” outlook. An abstract view that cannot be “switched off”, could make living in this world run by and through a physical perspective, very challenging.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Orbit]

Speaking in general, I am of the opinion that mystical experiences caused by psychedelics are just as "real" as any other mystical experience.

 

[The Hammer]

Certain psychedelics may provide an experience of mysticism that can't be described. But in my view the psychic changes that are induced in a person are short lived at best.

Whereas a traditional, non drug induced mystical state illicits a more permanent change in ones psyche.

Edit: grammar and spelling

 

[Vinayaka]

In my view the difference is like the difference between visiting a city, or moving to that city.

 

[an anarchist]

I look at it like this. Suppose spiritual knowledge is on top a set of stairs. Taking psychedelics will send you flying way above the set of stairs, and then you’ll come crashing down hard. Sure, you may glean some truths, but at what cost?

Through spiritual practice, you ascend the staircase one step at a time, safely.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I find it interesting that taking a material substance and having it induce such experiences will move people *away* from hard materialism.

I also wonder if *all* religious experiences are ultimately explained as internal psychedelics working.

For example, NDEs have been linked to the action of a ketamine analog in the brain.

While all experiences and sensations may register in the chemistry of the brain, does that mean they originate there? If someone ingests a mushroom, say, containing a hallucinogenic compound, where do the hallucinations originate? With the brain, or with the mushroom? Where does the mushroom originate? In a field somewhere, growing among grass nourished by horse or cow dung, generally. So where does the complex chemistry originate, which makes a field capable of sustaining living organisms? That chemistry originates in the stars, does it not? We are quite literally stardust, as any cosmologist will confirm. Sometimes we may have an experience akin to a star going supernova in our brain, accompanied by the realisation of how miraculous life, the universe, and everything truly is.

Yes, we can dismiss these experiences as nothing more than a chemical aberration in the brain; but those who have had such experiences, and whose lives have been profoundly altered by them, can simply answer that the brain and it's complex chemistry are all part of the miracle. La ilaha il Allah. "There is no reality but God."

 

[Polymath257]

While all experiences and sensations may register in the chemistry of the brain, does that mean they originate there? If someone ingests a mushroom, say, containing a hallucinogenic compound, where do the hallucinations originate? With the brain, or with the mushroom? Where does the mushroom originate? In a field somewhere, growing among grass nourished by horse or cow dung, generally. So where does the complex chemistry originate, which makes a field capable of sustaining living organisms? That chemistry originates in the stars, does it not? We are quite literally stardust, as any cosmologist will confirm. Sometimes we may have an experience akin to a star going supernova in our brain, accompanied by the realisation of how miraculous life, the universe, and everything truly is.

Yes, we can dismiss these experiences as nothing more than a chemical aberration in the brain; but those who have had such experiences, and whose lives have been profoundly altered by them, can simply answer that the brain and it's complex chemistry are all part of the miracle. La ilaha il Allah. "There is no reality but God."

And to some extent, I agree with you. Even someone that believes everything is ultimately material also needs a sense of awe and wonder. I don't deny the experiences exist; I merely question the interpretation of those experiences.

So, I think that experiences induced from psychedelics are just as 'real' as religious experiences induced by meditation, prayer, fasting, etc. They are all tricks to get the brain to trigger certain circuits that give us feelings of awe and wonder. It will be a different experiences when triggered by an external chemical than when triggered solely from internal ones. But they are all just as 'real'.

Bu tthe experience being real does not, as far as I can see, deny that they are all induced and present in a fully material existence. The Allah that you describe seems to be the same as the universe I describe.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And to some extent, I agree with you. Even someone that believes everything is ultimately material also needs a sense of awe and wonder. I don't deny the experiences exist; I merely question the interpretation of those experiences.

So, I think that experiences induced from psychedelics are just as 'real' as religious experiences induced by meditation, prayer, fasting, etc. They are all tricks to get the brain to trigger certain circuits that give us feelings of awe and wonder. It will be a different experiences when triggered by an external chemical than when triggered solely from internal ones. But they are all just as 'real'.

Bu tthe experience being real does not, as far as I can see, deny that they are all induced and present in a fully material existence. The Allah that you describe seems to be the same as the universe I describe.

Yeah, it can be done, but even then there are variants for knowledge.