Are people who claim to know God liars?

[Rick B]

Then why can't Christians all get on the same page and make the same claims about God? Why are there so many denomination and views by Christians out there?

I can create a theology based on biblical scripture as easy as anyone else. Being able to use Bible passages to support my claims, regardless of whether they agree with your claims, does that give me authority?

The reason for that is because we are finite human individuals with a variety of life experiences, differing levels of intellectual capabilities and presuppositions. The Apostle Paul, in the first century A.D. addressed this:

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

Through the centuries there have been great men of God who have contributed to the advancement of the Christian understanding of Biblical doctrine and practice. If we are able to see just a little farther it is partly because we stand on the shoulders of giants.

We strive to refer to the Bible as our one, final, objective standard of truth.

Your question: "Then why can't Christians all get on the same page and make the same claims about God? Why are there so many denomination and views by Christians out there? Can be directed back to the Atheist's worldview exponentially

The Atheistic worldview asserts that there are no objective, universal, abstract, immaterial, binding, laws that govern logic. To be consistent within their worldview which argues that there is no God, no "super"natural realm they must embrace that only the natural/physical universe exists and truth claims therefore are, necessarily subjective/relative.

That means that each living individual (nearly 8 billion) is the final authority of their truth claims.

So, you see, you will have a more difficult time of justifying your position as superior which your question assumes.

Nevertheless, since none of us are carbon copies and "on the same page and make the same claims" about everything, we can allow for differences on each side and enter into dialogue to argue our case.

 

[Nakosis]

The reason for that is because we are finite human individuals with a variety of life experiences, differing levels of intellectual capabilities and presuppositions. The Apostle Paul, in the first century A.D. addressed this:

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

Through the centuries there have been great men of God who have contributed to the advancement of the Christian understanding of Biblical doctrine and practice. If we are able to see just a little farther it is partly because we stand on the shoulders of giants.

We strive to refer to the Bible as our one, final, objective standard of truth.

Your question: "Then why can't Christians all get on the same page and make the same claims about God? Why are there so many denomination and views by Christians out there? Can be directed back to the Atheist's worldview exponentially

The Atheistic worldview asserts that there are no objective, universal, abstract, immaterial, binding, laws that govern logic. To be consistent within their worldview which argues that there is no God, no "super"natural realm they must embrace that only the natural/physical universe exists and truth claims therefore are, necessarily subjective/relative.

That means that each living individual (nearly 8 billion) is the final authority of their truth claims.

So, you see, you will have a more difficult time of justifying your position as superior which your question assumes.

Nevertheless, since none of us are carbon copies and "on the same page and make the same claims" about everything, we can allow for differences on each side and enter into dialogue to argue our case.

You argue your case based on what?

Personal experience? Atheist or believer can base their case equally on personal experience. We all have authority over our own experience.

What gives you or someone else any authority to makes claims about God?

An atheist will use the Bible to make various claims about God.

These great men who's shoulders you stand on. What makes them great?

My position is why should I listen to what one claims about God. By what measure do I evaluate those claims.

If someone makes a scientific claim I am free to review the data. Question it if I feel it's necessary, repeat and try to falsify the results.

So you make a claim about God, how does one go about verifying that?

 

[Rick B]

I'm supposing you think this disproves your libel. It doesn't. What it shows is that the gospel according to Matthew is also libelous. Worse, it evinces that anti-Jewish slander is codified and inextricably part of Christianity. If you want me to explain how, just let me know. Meanwhile, you might want to read this link to broaden your insight about this topic: Stolen body hypothesis - Wikipedia

Well I read your link to Wikipedia.

Two things:
The inspired Old and New Testaments have a much richer and deeper historicity than Wikipedia.
The article in Wikipedia describes the event as the "Stolen body HYPOTHESIS" A theory that "posits that the body of Jesus Christ was stolen from his burial place. His tomb was found empty not because he was resurrected, but because the body had been hidden somewhere else by the apostles or unknown persons. Both the stolen body hypothesis and the debate over it presume the basic historicity of the gospel accounts of the tomb discovery. The stolen body hypothesis finds the idea that the body was not in the tomb plausible - such a claim could be checked if early Christians made it - but considers it more likely that early Christians had been misled into believing the resurrection by the theft of Jesus's body."

This is a theory attempting to explain away the Scriptural testimony regarding the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Which is what Matthew 28:11-15 states. The eyewitnesses to the risen Christ were Jews.

The Wikipedia article concludes with this statement: "Some apologists[who?] note that the disciples, as practicing Jews, could not come near a dead body without breaking ritual purity regulations. Exceptions included the nearest male relative could claim a dead body and women.[citation needed] Thus, the fact that women discovered the empty tomb first is seen as very plausible, and the (presumably devout) disciples taking the body is seen as a less likely explanation. However, if a genuine conspiracy was afoot, breaking purity is unlikely to have stopped the conspirators, and grave robbers violate this law constantly by profession. If Jesus's family reclaimed the body, this would not apply either. It does, however, make it less plausible other Jews would have stolen the body."

So what is more plausible? The Bible is true and Jesus rose bodily from the grave? Or believing a theoretical hypothesis?

 

[Rick B]

You argue your case based on what?

Personal experience? Atheist or believer can base their case equally on personal experience. We all have authority over our own experience.

What gives you or someone else any authority to makes claims about God?

An atheist will use the Bible to make various claims about God.

These great men who's shoulders you stand on. What makes them great?

My position is why should I listen to what one claims about God. By what measure do I evaluate those claims.

If someone makes a scientific claim I am free to review the data. Question it if I feel it's necessary, repeat and try to falsify the results.

So you make a claim about God, how does one go about verifying that?

You: "You argue your case based on what?"
Based on your question: "Then why can't Christians all get on the same page and make the same claims about God? Why are there so many denomination and views by Christians out there?"

You: "What gives you or someone else any authority to makes claims about God?"
God's Word: "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction." 2 Timothy 4:1-2
"We proclaim Him, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ." Colossians 1:28
“This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success." Joshua 1:8

You: "These great men who's shoulders you stand on. What makes them great?"
They were steadfast, like the Bereans, who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11

You: "My position is why should I listen to what one claims about God. By what measure do I evaluate those claims."
"To whom shall I speak and give warning That they may hear? Behold, their ears are closed And they cannot listen Behold, the word of the LORD has become a reproach to them; They have no delight in it." Jeremiah 6:10
"Yet they did not listen or incline their ears, but stiffened their necks in order not to listen or take correction." Jeremiah 17:23
"They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction." Jeremiah 32:33
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

You: So you make a claim about God, how does one go about verifying that?"
By searching the scriptures (God's inspired written revelation) daily, whether those things were so. This is the measure by which one evaluates those claims.

 

[osgart]

before we pass harsh judgment please do consider that the God belief is a believers honesty.

 

[Nakosis]

You: "You argue your case based on what?"
Based on your question: "Then why can't Christians all get on the same page and make the same claims about God? Why are there so many denomination and views by Christians out there?"

You: "What gives you or someone else any authority to makes claims about God?"
God's Word: "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction." 2 Timothy 4:1-2
"We proclaim Him, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ." Colossians 1:28
“This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success." Joshua 1:8

You: "These great men who's shoulders you stand on. What makes them great?"
They were steadfast, like the Bereans, who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11

You: "My position is why should I listen to what one claims about God. By what measure do I evaluate those claims."
"To whom shall I speak and give warning That they may hear? Behold, their ears are closed And they cannot listen Behold, the word of the LORD has become a reproach to them; They have no delight in it." Jeremiah 6:10
"Yet they did not listen or incline their ears, but stiffened their necks in order not to listen or take correction." Jeremiah 17:23
"They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction." Jeremiah 32:33
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Quoting scripture doesn't prove you have any understanding of it or authority over it. Anybody can quote scripture, it's easy... copy and paste.

John 1King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Does this provide me any authority to make claims about God?

By searching the scriptures (God's inspired written revelation) daily, whether those things were so. This is the measure by which one evaluates those claims.

Well keep at it. I'm sure the truth will catch up to you someday.

 

[Nakosis]

before we pass harsh judgment please do consider that the God belief is a believers honesty.

I know they are honest, most of them least ways. I just wonder if they are honest enough to test their beliefs.

 

[osgart]

I know they are honest, most of them least ways. I just wonder if they are honest enough to test their beliefs.

there is an entire line of intelligent design logicalization that they see as iron clad, and simply self evident. anything opposing it would be immediately dismissed even though well understood.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But the bias is US. The bias is our preconceived expectations about what is real and true, and our desire to fit whatever we experience into these so that we can imagine that we "understand" it.
It can't be done. The bias is built into what we already think we 'understand'. What we already think is 'real and true'. And it will be through this biased presumption of what is 'real and true' that we will seek to understand anything new.

We have techniques to set aside our biases when investigating claims. These techniques are called "skepticism" and they don't support belief in gods.

 

[Rick B]

Quoting scripture doesn't prove you have any understanding of it or authority over it. Anybody can quote scripture, it's easy... copy and paste.

John 1King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Does this provide me any authority to make claims about God?

Well keep at it. I'm sure the truth will catch up to you someday.

Quoting scripture doesn't prove you have any understanding of it or authority over it. Anybody can quote scripture, it's easy... copy and paste.

There was no inference on my part that I had any authority over Scripture as you fallaciously misrepresent. I have repeatedly stated that Scripture was my final authority. The final standard of truth to which I apply to make truth claims. I exercises authority over me. Perhaps you just misunderstood.

Does this provide me any authority to make claims about God?

No. This section affirms the deity of Christ. His eternal relationship in the being of God. His being creator and life-giver, both temporal and everlasting. It also informs us that God sent the man, John the Baptist, to proclaim His coming. So, no, there is no specific authorization given to make claims about God. It is only inferred by the fact of other Scripture mandates, that teaches us to compare all of Scripture with Scripture. Such as this authorizing command:

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

Well keep at it. I'm sure the truth will catch up to you someday.

"If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 31b:32

 

[atanu]

My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

For some, God is a placeholder for the true subject. Other placeholders are Atman, Brahman, Self etc. . Such people say that God can only be experienced as non dual.

 

[PureX]

We have techniques to set aside our biases when investigating claims. These techniques are called "skepticism" and they don't support belief in gods.

Even "skepticism" is it's own kind of bias.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Even "skepticism" is it's own kind of bias.

Yes: it's biased in favour of the verifiable and against the unjustified.

 

[Nakosis]

For some, God is a placeholder for the true subject. Other placeholders are Atman, Brahman, Self etc. . Such people say that God can only be experienced as non dual.

If there is no duality, then is there no separation from God? If there is no separation then who are you?

 

[atanu]

If there is no duality, then is there no separation from God? If there is no separation then who are you?

Possibly, what seems a distinct entity with a distinct identity is an apparent aspect or a temporary form, non different from the non dual (wherein vests function of knowing and seeing).

In Rig Veda, there is a verse where Indra (leader of the gods) says to brahmA (the creator) "If you enquire 'Who Am I?', then you are That". Of course the successful enquiry will constitute piercing all forms of "I am this".

From this viewpoint, the ultimate reality (aka God) cannot be known or seen.

 

[Nakosis]

Possibly, what seems a distinct entity with a distinct identity is an apparent aspect or a temporary form, non different from the non dual (wherein vests function of knowing and seeing).

In Rig Veda, there is a verse where Indra (leader of the gods) says to brahmA (the creator) "If you enquire 'Who Am I?', then you are That". Of course the successful enquiry will constitute piercing all forms of "I am this".

From this viewpoint, the ultimate reality (aka God) cannot be known or seen.

But what is your experience? What do you know?

Are we left to choose among the words of others?

Then do I choose the Vedas, the Bible, the Quran?

Jesus said the Father and I are one...

Did this make him unique as the Christians believe?

 

[atanu]

But what is your experience? What do you know?

Are we left to choose among the words of others?

Then do I choose the Vedas, the Bible, the Quran?

Jesus said the Father and I are one...

Did this make him unique as the Christians believe?

My experience points to the non-dual. Words of others are but pointers to what constitutes the root of our awareness, which is non dual.

In my opinion, Jesus was speaking of a general truth.

 

[Nakosis]

My experience points to the non-dual. Words of others are but pointers to what constitutes the root of our awareness, which is non dual.

In my opinion, Jesus was speaking of a general truth.

The experience of unity/oneness is real, it's a real experience which is common enough.

Jesus went out to the wilderness, Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree. Perhaps this is what they experienced.

However someone rose the question whether this experience of oneness is actually an experience of oneness with God or just an internal experience of oneness.

Some say yes, some say it is just an internal experience. To which I have to say I honestly don't know.

It's a little frustrating you know, for seeking the truth, to not know if you can trust your own experience.

There are things I can validate. This is one of those things I can't really.

So I can make claims based on my experience. I can make claims based on what others claim like using the authority of the Bible. Which is really just other people making claims based on their own experience.

However if I can't validate my own experience, how can I really trust someone else being able to validate theirs?

 

[atanu]

The experience of unity/oneness is real, it's a real experience which is common enough.

Jesus went out to the wilderness, Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree. Perhaps this is what they experienced.

However someone rose the question whether this experience of oneness is actually an experience of oneness with God or just an internal experience of oneness.

Some say yes, some say it is just an internal experience. To which I have to say I honestly don't know.

It's a little frustrating you know, for seeking the truth, to not know if you can trust your own experience.

There are things I can validate. This is one of those things I can't really.

So I can make claims based on my experience. I can make claims based on what others claim like using the authority of the Bible. Which is really just other people making claims based on their own experience.

However if I can't validate my own experience, how can I really trust someone else being able to validate theirs?

I understand your situation. However is there need for a third party validation?

 

[Jimmy]

of course not