Are people who claim to know God liars?

[serp777]

This is the classic problem of indistinguishability. There is no way to prove I have a right hand, or that I'm not a brain in a bottle with tubes and electrode sticking in my brain, or I'm matrix character; except with circular bootstrapped reasoning. This problem goes back to Plato (2420 years ago) and punched hard by Rene Descarte (380 years ago). The only way to get above this human environment would be to get on the level of gods. But that wouldn't be enough since one god might be a little higher and be an evil deceiver tricking all us other gods. So I'd need to be elevated to the top position of God over all, to see clearly. That is my only chance of claiming absolute confidence and certain knowledge. (Unless God has a surprise for us.) Obviously, I'll never unseat God and don't wish to. I am perfectly happy with my man-level, man-sized abilities and relative knowledge (relative to many properly basic assumption). After a billion years in heaven, if I find out that my human experience was all a joke of a super-deceiver, I'll deal with it then, with whatever power I have. Until then I will shelf this doubt, and enjoy the common sense reality we all follow as we cross a busy street. I'll follow the apparently highly orderly, seemingly dependable reality that appears to be in front of my eyes. I'll follow Jesus for a number of reasons and strong lines of evidence. If I lived deep in the Amazon and never heard of Jesus, I hope I'd hope for a good God with a great plan of afterlife. God saves those people; Rom 2:14-16. Atheists should as least honestly hope for that kind of God. And I believe that spark of hope will be rewarded with an opening of spiritual eyes to see. When I was a hard-core Atheist before 1970, that happened to me.

This is the classic problem of indistinguishability. There is no way to prove I have a right hand, or that I'm not a brain in a bottle with tubes and electrode sticking in my brain, or I'm matrix character; except with circular bootstrapped reasoning.

yes and I reject absolute certainty altogether. Some things, like the laws of logic, and mundane things I accept out of practical necessity to a high degree of confidence. However, I'm sure even you'd agree that not all revelations and experiences should be trusted. I mean surely your logic isn't that we should just trust and accept our experiences 100%, correct? We can have degrees of confidence. The experience of getting a pet dog is a common claim and can be trusted fairly reliably--however i'm certainly not saying I can trust it 100%, because maybe im in a psych ward. But a hypothetical personal experience of getting abducted by little green men wearing tutus while I'm hopped up on cocaine and mushrooms can be doubted very substantially. The two claims warrant different standards of evidence. I also am pretty sure you'll agree to this distinction.

 

[Complexity]

yes and I reject absolute certainty altogether. Some things, like the laws of logic, and mundane things I accept out of practical necessity to a high degree of confidence. However, I'm sure even you'd agree that not all revelations and experiences should be trusted. I mean surely your logic isn't that we should just trust and accept our experiences 100%, correct? We can have degrees of confidence. The experience of getting a pet dog is a common claim and can be trusted fairly reliably--however i'm certainly not saying I can trust it 100%, because maybe im in a psych ward. But a hypothetical personal experience of getting abducted by little green men wearing tutus while I'm hopped up on cocaine and mushrooms can be doubted very substantially. The two claims warrant different standards of evidence. I also am pretty sure you'll agree to this distinction.

I was brought up in a very faulty, cultish religion. I felt very strongly that it was the one and only true faith. Contradictions and doubts built. I was told that good boys don't ask questions, and I should simply truth those in long robes. I dumped that dog at age 15. I had a bucket-load of reason to reject it, but for a year I still had guilt feelings for leaving (false guilt). It takes time for truth to displace bad indoctrination and feelings. Obviously, all feelings and beliefs must be tested. We can all think back at the many times we were wrong, and wonder how many current beliefs are wrong. 1 Thess 5:20-21, Lk 12:57, and many more tells us to test and prove all things; debating every belief. We are all wrong at times, and must be very careful. We are all bias and must test our pet feelings. We must use all the tools we can to minimize our errors. But we can't become immobilized by doubt. We need confidence to mobilize us to do anything meaningful. We should have confidence in the most worthy and plausible. But it is silly to pretend to have flawless, God-vision, God-level, 100% true beliefs.

We finite creatures must judge the "infinite" God. It seems improper to some. But there is no other path. And I believe God helps us judge Him and all the other god candidates.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Here's a good place to start:
Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

No one knows truth due to the intelligence of men but only by the Spirit is truth revealed. Jesus is truth.

Well I'm just curious, what do you believe then? Are you oneness or Trinitarian? What does a person have to do to be saved? Of course I believe God has to reveal truth to you.

 

[DavidFirth]

Well I'm just curious, what do you believe then? Are you oneness or Trinitarian? What does a person have to do to be saved? Of course I believe God has to reveal truth to you.

I am simply a Christian. I go to Mass and identify with Catholics but I would say I do not believe everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Concerning your questions, have you studied the Bible?

Romans 10:9 and John 3:16 well state how one is saved.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I am simply a Christian. I go to Mass and identify with Catholics but I would say I do not believe everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Concerning your questions, have you studied the Bible?

Romans 10:9 and John 3:16 well state how one is saved.

Yes I have studied the Bible. I believe way different than you. I had just seen some of your posts and was curious what you believed.

 

[DavidFirth]

Yes I have studied the Bible. I believe way different than you. I had just seen some of your posts and was curious what you believed.

You believe different than Romans 10:9 and John 3:16?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You believe different than Romans 10:9 and John 3:16?

Of course I believe those verses, but there is more to it than just that. There are other verses also, and they are also true. For instance: He that endureth to the end shall be saved, and he that believeth, and is baptized shall be saved. And, you must be born again of the water and the Spirit. And, Faith without works is dead. Etc. You can't just pick one or two verses and think you understand it all.

 

[DavidFirth]

Of course I believe those verses, but there is more to it than just that. There are other verses also, and they are also true. For instance: He that endureth to the end shall be saved, and he that believeth, and is baptized shall be saved. And, you must be born again of the water and the Spirit. And, Faith without works is dead. Etc. You can't just pick one or two verses and think you understand it all.

No, but those verses are true, regardless.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

No, but those verses are true, regardless.

They are true, but that doesn't mean all you have to do is believe and you are saved.

 

[DavidFirth]

They are true, but that doesn't mean all you have to do is believe and you are saved.

Well, that is what they say. The thief on the cross simply believed and we know he was saved.

 

[Faithofchristian]

First where does this saying come from, That alot of Christians will say, They have a Personal relationship with God, That they know God and have knowledge of God.

what do you think of people, who claim knowledge of God.

I have found in questioning people, It's more to make them feel good, To claim they have knowledge of God or to claim they have a Personal relationship with God or they know God.

There are those who will claim to have the Holy Spirit of God. But yet have no clue what the scriptures say.

But yet the Holy Spirit they are claiming to have, is the Spirit that gave inspiration to write the scriptures.
So i ask them, then can you tell me what this means, but yet they have not a clue. But yet they claim to have that which inspired the scriptures.
That's like a NASA rocket scientist, that claims to have knowledge of Rockets, But yet can't explain what he has written down in his book.

So we come back to the question.
What do you think of people, who claim knowledge of God.

Is it possible to know someone, but not know anything what they written to you?

What do you think of people, Who claim knowledge of God?

 

[Apologes]

Atheists would hardly say they know nothing about God, for after all they know He doesn't exist.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Well, that is what they say. The thief on the cross simply believed and we know he was saved.

That was before the New Covenant went into effect. The Messiah said you must be born again of the water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. Please start a new thread if you would like to discuss this further.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Atheists would hardly say they know nothing about God, for after all they know He doesn't exist.

That was before the New Covenant went into effect. The Messiah said you must be born again of the water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. Please start a new thread if you would like to discuss this further.

What exactly did Jesus mean by, You must be born again of the water and of the Spirit, to enter the kingdom of heaven?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

What exactly did Jesus mean by, You must be born again of the water and of the Spirit, to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Would you mind starting a new thread on this?

Peter had the keys to the kingdom. He used those keys in Acts 2: on the Day of Pentecost. The plan of salvation is to repent of your sins - be baptized in the name of the one who shed the blood, for the remission or forgiveness of your sins - and then God will fill you with his Holy Spirit.

When you are baptized in his name for the forgiveness of sins, That is being born of the water.

And when he fills you with his Holy Spirit, That is being born of the Spirit.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Would you mind starting a new thread on this?

Peter had the keys to the kingdom. He used those keys in Acts 2: on the Day of Pentecost. The plan of salvation is to repent of your sins - be baptized in the name of the one who shed the blood, for the remission or forgiveness of your sins - and then God will fill you with his Holy Spirit.

When you are baptized in his name for the forgiveness of sins, That is being born of the water.

And when he fills you with his Holy Spirit, That is being born of the Spirit.

As to how do you come by being born of the water as being baptism?

There is no where in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus that either one of them said anything about Baptism
In John 3:3-6.
So as to where do you come by baptism, since Jesus or Nicodemus said nothing about baptism. In their whole conversation.

 

[Nakosis]

So we come back to the question.
What do you think of people, who claim knowledge of God.

Is it possible to know someone, but not know anything what they written to you?

What do you think of people, Who claim knowledge of God?

What I think is that they've had a type of hallucination. One created by the subconscious mind. Like a waking dream which feels real to them.

I'm confident that the subconscious mind is capable of creating such a hallucination in a manner that the conscious self is completely unaware of.

I'm not saying there is no God, but I feel that this is a quite plausible explanation which doesn't require acceptance of the supernatural.

 

[Nakosis]

Atheists would hardly say they know nothing about God, for after all they know He doesn't exist.

What I suspect, is that "God" died. God died to give birth to the universe. So there is currently no "God" to really have knowledge of.

What man "knows" of God is a creation of man's subconscious mind because it can't really be confirmed. It's like seeing a mirage. You can see it. There's no question, it's a real experience, but never going to the spot physically to verify it's there.

 

[DavidFirth]

That was before the New Covenant went into effect. The Messiah said you must be born again of the water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom. Please start a new thread if you would like to discuss this further.

No need. I know what the Bible says.

 

[Muffled]

There's a dragon in my garage.
It's invisible to you. But I assure you it's there.
It has revealed itself to me through the expression of its spirit in my life.
You cannot tell me that my dragon doesn't exist because I KNOW that it does.

Am I...:

A) Lying
B) Deluded
C) Expressing true knowledge of a hidden dragon
D) Something else

I believe you are lying. Supposedly dragons spoke to people according to welsh myth but those dragons were real not spiritual. Naturally a spirit can represent itself as anything it wishes but there does not seem to be much precedent. The reason I think you are lying is that it appears to me that you are just using a bogus example to try to prove a point.