Are Progressives like Nazis?

[Alceste]

Pretty much common sense would have it that the more free trade, the lower the wages for the average worker here in North America and in much of western Europe. The driving force here is wages, which is the greatest single cost in manufacturing. If we think we can compete with countries paying under a dollar an hour, especially with many of those countries that do have good educational systems, then we're simply deluding ourselves.

The move into NAFTA and other free-trade agreements was a bonanza for business since they could produce widgets at lower costs, which also made this whole process more appealing to consumers here in the west. Take a look at the success of Walmart as an example, but how many "Made In America" products do you actually find there? In order to compete with companies like Walmart, other companies had to do the same or their products would be more expensive.

So, business, most of the politicians, and much of the American public, benefited in the short run because we had an economic and educational edge, but in the long run we're reaping the penalty with the prognosis actually worsening.

In fairness to the architects of this economic disaster, many of them did sincerely believe the developing world would soon "catch up", and that the workers of developed nations would be doing different sorts of jobs. Better jobs. With more leisure time. And robotic domestic servants.

Others (the nasty ones) hoped to chop up the world into monolithic, super-efficient production zones, where for example all the bananas in the world come from bananaland, and if you live in bananaland your only economic option is to produce bananas or starve to death more quickly. But not to eat them. Oh, no. The bananas go to consumerland (that's us), and all the spoils go straight into the pockets of our great capitalist overlords.

 

[metis]

In fairness to the architects of this economic disaster, many of them did sincerely believe the developing world would soon "catch up", and that the workers of developed nations would be doing different sorts of jobs. Better jobs. With more leisure time. And robotic domestic servants.

Others (the nasty ones) hoped to chop up the world into monolithic, super-efficient production zones, where for example all the bananas in the world come from bananaland, and if you live in bananaland your only economic option is to produce bananas or starve to death more quickly. But not to eat them. Oh, no. The bananas go to consumerland (that's us), and all the spoils go straight into the pockets of our great capitalist overlords.

Yes, and we've seen how that worked out. To me, it's a major problem we as Americans tend to have-- good short-term thinking but lousy long-term thinking. As you said in the last paragraph, this also has produced serious problems in "bananaland" as well, although many problems they have would have resulted anyway due to population growth with less land per capita. My father saw this first-hand in the Philippines as he was there for two years right after WWII, and when he went back in the 1980's, most good farm land was bought out by corporate farms growing one product, leaving most of the rural population landless.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Clamping down on free trade wouldn't solve the problem.

Why subjugate people to a wage war against a country that pays 2 cents an hour?

Even talking heads on MSNBC are beginning to discuss the underlying problem of an increasingly technological economy having less use for lower skill labor.

FYI, MSNBC and CNN are FUBR. They are better than FOX, but they rarely talk about things like TTP.

As more & more people are replaced by machines & software, the labor glut will reduce wages for them.

Which is why we have a minimum-wage. Imagine if the minimum wage would keep up with inflation.

We need workers with much better technical educations. But I expect that even they will feel the pressure as business & manufacturing become less dependent upon people.

As long as we, as responsible society, provide free education to those who are effected by those changes, yes, absolutely.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, and we've seen how that worked out. To me, it's a major problem we as Americans tend to have-- good short-term thinking but lousy long-term thinking. As you said in the last paragraph, this also has produced serious problems in "bananaland" as well, although many problems they have would have resulted anyway due to population growth with less land per capita. My father saw this first-hand in the Philippines as he was there for two years right after WWII, and when he went back in the 1980's, most good farm land was bought out by corporate farms growing one product, leaving most of the rural population landless.

Yeah. In my opinion, the slaving classes have been busting their balls to recreate those glory days ever since the abolition of slavery.

And slavery was an attempt by that very same class of sociopathic pinheads to recreate the glory days of feudalism.

The comforting thing is that they are always overthrown in the end. The troubling thing is that they always rise again with a "new" idea.

What's that expression - the scum rises to the top?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

That's been the uninterrupted trend in geopolitics since the unholy trinity of Reagan / Thatcher / Mulroney paved the way for it.

Exactly!

 

[metis]

Yeah. In my opinion, the slaving classes have been busting their balls to recreate those glory days ever since the abolition of slavery.

And slavery was an attempt by that very same class of sociopathic pinheads to recreate the glory days of feudalism.

Well, it appears they're well on their way to doing just that, and the demise of unions is helping that process.

 

[Alceste]

Well, it appears they're well on their way to doing just that, and the demise of unions is helping that process.

Yeah, I added some further thoughts to that post. It's cyclical. So while we never really have to worry that they will prevail, we can also expect that they will always rise again when they fail. OTOH, over the long sweep of history, the people are winning.

 

[metis]

Yeah, I added some further thoughts to that post. It's cyclical. So while we never really have to worry that they will prevail, we can also expect that they will always rise again when they fail. OTOH, over the long sweep of history, the people are winning.

I wish I could be that optimistic, although you could very well be right. Remember "Money talks and ...". And can we put the genie back in the bottle, especially since here in the States we now have the insane "Citizens United" SCOTUS decision that has rapidly ramped us up to being a corporatocracy? I'm not sure.

 

[Alceste]

I wish I could be that optimistic, although you could very well be right. Remember "Money talks and ...". And can we put the genie back in the bottle, especially since here in the States we now have the insane "Citizens United" SCOTUS decision that has rapidly ramped us up to being a corporatocracy? I'm not sure.

We're on a losing streak right now, but look how far we've come in the ideological war over the long term. We beat feudalism, we beat slavery, we beat colonialism and now we're working on neo-liberalism. In the mean time, we've accomplished nearly universal suffrage, democratic government, the rule of law, fairly equal rights for women and minorities, freedom of religion, speech and association, the creation of the "middle class society", where nobody is sucking up all the wealth and nobody is completely left out. (see: Scandinavia). We've established the welfare state, with universal health care for most people and a social safety net when life takes a wrong turn...

So we're basically winning, but at the moment we're taking a lot of casualties. There is a lot of push-back happening now, though, all over the world. The bananalands are dealing with a lot of civil unrest due to food shortages, and consumerland is finally finishing its inevitable swing toward fascism during difficult economic times. The leftward swing is on the horizon, but I expect we won't see it gain much momentum until the baby boomers start to die off.

 

[Yadon]

Interesting topic in the news today.

Venture Capitalist Compares 'Progressive War On 1 Percent' To Nazi Anti-Semitism

To put it lightly, these assertions are delusional. The powerful tend to have persecution complexes.

I was thinking the same thing. There's a myth the uber rich are the cream of society risen to the top. They're not, but the myth persists because the rich have groupies like Ayn Rand.

I have a slight acquaintance with someone whose family name is a common synonym for "rich" in some countries. She strikes me as a kind, decent person, but no smarter than most people. What she does have, though, is access to advisers. When she makes an investment, it's usually because three to five people who are experts in that industry or investment have all advised her to invest in it. Naturally, she has a pretty good track record of wins to losses. But it's not, as Ayn Rand naively thought, that she and her family are superior people. It's that they have access to the best advice around.

I find Ayn Rand disgusting. And it is true, somewhere long ago a person got lucky or had a combination of hard work and luck, but then their children and children's children inherited money, or got to take advantage of wealth they never earned through their family members or parents. And so a cycle of entitled and selfish brats who have no idea what it's like to live poorly pull the ropes.

To be the Devil's advocate however, (personally when I see a debate and Hitler is invoked you lose) I have read threads in this forum where members have mentioned an uprising or revolt by force. I'm not so sure these folks are against putting the ultra rich heads on sticks.

It is the prophecy spoken by Karl Marx. Down with the capitalist pigs! Long live the worker class! Viva la revolución!!!

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I think the author of the article sums it well with this:
Thomas Perkins, one of the founders of venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caulfield & Byers, was comparing taxes on the super rich to the slaughter of millions in the Holocaust.

That about sums it up. Seriously, trying to play the victim card because you're filthy rich? It would be hilarious if it wasn't just downright offensive. Although you gotta feel sorry for the guy; not only does he lack basic common sense and that useful gray matter most of us have between our ears, but also basic human decency... At least he's rich, I guess.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is the prophecy spoken by Karl Marx. Down with the capitalist pigs! Long live the worker class! Viva la revolución!!!

Ooh, music to my ears.

[youtube]Bv-N5xj65BA[/youtube]

 

[Revoltingest]

It is the prophecy spoken by Karl Marx. Down with the capitalist pigs! Long live the worker class! Viva la revolución!!!

Some of us running dogs (& pigs) of capitalism won't go down without a fight.
We're armed....& sneaky.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Some of us running dogs (& pigs) of capitalism won't go down without a fight.
We're armed....& sneaky.

You also tend to be middle aged and older.

 

[Revoltingest]

You also tend to be middle aged and older.

And we're raising a younger crop of capitalist pups to replace us.
Booowhahahahhahahhahhahhhahhahaaahahhahahahah, etc!

Join us!
We have bacon!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And we're raising a younger crop of capitalist pups to replace us.
Booowhahahahhahahhahhahhhahhahaaahahhahahahah, etc!

Join us!
We have bacon!

No, thanks. I prefer to live in reality and not compromise my ethics. Besides, I'm sick of bacon.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, thanks. I prefer to live in reality and not compromise my ethics. Besides, I'm sick of bacon.

Oh, well...my door is always open.
(I have chocolate too.)

 

[metis]

Part of my pessimism dealing with the prognosis here in the States as far as our long-range future is concerned, goes back to what the rather notable British anthropologist Desmond Morris ("The Naked Ape" and quite a few other books) said when asked back around 1970 what he thought the long-range forecast was for us Americans, and he said that he saw problems in the long-run because Americans don't seem to know when to stop competing against each other, and that as the population grew and resources became less, this would tend to cause a major fracturing of society. And we are seeing this being played out in spades now, and we indeed are a very fragmented nation.

We have a lot of strikes against us, and yet we have this huge segment in our society that is hoarding massive amounts of money with a seemingly insatiable appetite for more and more ... The minute that anyone says that maybe we should do something about this, we're then accused of conducting "class warfare".

Unfortunately, we are not doing anywhere near enough to prepare for the long term, as our infrastructure is deteriorating badly, our educational system needs serious reform particularly in poorer areas, there's a strong anti-science bias with nearly half the U.S. population, we're not doing much to help the poor with any chance of upward mobility, we push for even more free-trade agreements that will make importing goods from low-wage foreign countries even easier, etc.

Greed and a blindness to well thought out long-term solutions are killing us, and I'm not optimistic that we're going to turn this around. Washington is a train wreck, and many of the states are not far behind. I do believe there's a chance we may be able to get our act together, but we're sliding down hill pretty fast.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Part of my pessimism dealing with the prognosis here in the States as far as our long-range future is concerned, goes back to what the rather notable British anthropologist Desmond Morris ("The Naked Ape" and quite a few other books) said when asked back around 1970 what he thought the long-range forecast was for us Americans, and he said that he saw problems in the long-run because Americans don't seem to know when to stop competing against each other, and that as the population grew and resources became less, this would tend to cause a major fracturing of society. And we are seeing this being played out in spades now, and we indeed are a very fragmented nation.

We have a lot of strikes against us, and yet we have this huge segment in our society that is hoarding massive amounts of money with a seemingly insatiable appetite for more and more ... The minute that anyone says that maybe we should do something about this, we're then accused of conducting "class warfare".

Unfortunately, we are not doing anywhere near enough to prepare for the long term, as our infrastructure is deteriorating badly, our educational system needs serious reform particularly in poorer areas, there's a strong anti-science bias with nearly half the U.S. population, we're not doing much to help the poor with any chance of upward mobility, we push for even more free-trade agreements that will make importing goods from low-wage foreign countries even easier, etc.

Greed and a blindness to well thought out long-term solutions are killing us, and I'm not optimistic that we're going to turn this around. Washington is a train wreck, and many of the states are not far behind. I do believe there's a chance we may be able to get our act together, but we're sliding down hill pretty fast.

Quoted For Truth. :shout

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Some of us running dogs (& pigs) of capitalism won't go down without a fight.
We're armed....& sneaky.

Frankly Revoltingest, you don't cut the mustard. Most of what the occupiers and other realists are complaining about is not with the 1%ers. That just makes for easily consumed jargon.
It is the 0.01%ers who are blindly doing everything they can to hoard the wealth to themselves, with an easily demonstrated ill effect on our infrastucture, on the middle class, on the poor, on our nation, and on democracy itself.
I would say that they "must" be stopped. But it is more to the point of their own short-sightedness to say that they "will" be stopped. It is unavoidable, as their modus operandi cannot sustain itself for the long term. Either 1.-- the nation will collapse;2.-- they can willingly give up their hoards; or 3.--they can "give up" their hoards unwillingly.
You and I, and the likes of Reverend Rick may be in the top 5%, but we aren't even remotely close to the plutocrats in the top 0.01%. We will have no impact on this tale, beyond another set of boots with the 99(.99)% ranks.

Personally, I would hope that we don't need those boots for more than walking to the polling booths en masse.