Are Religions and Gods manmade?

[Mock Turtle]

Geez...

I post this:

"You will find that most people get upset when some idiot comes along and tries telling them this or that did or did not happen in their lives, when they have no idea what they are talking about."

And you reply with more of the same.

I can see that you are not serious in honest discussion, but just trying to be annoying.

As serious as someone who uses multiple exclamation marks (and ad homs) to emphasize how right he is.

 

[Yazata]

I think that God in the philosophical sense may or may not exist. By that I mean whatever explains why existence exists and why it displays the order that it seemingly does. Whatever performs those metaphysical functions wouldn't seem to have been invented by man. (Of course our idea that there might be such a thing might be an artifact of the kind of questions that we ask. Hence in that sense man made.)

But I do think that the particular named deities of the various religious traditions are human inventions.

 

[joelr]

How do you know those people actually proved those to themselves? Maybe they just believed without looking for proof.

No one has proved any religion to themselves without some form of delusion. Until someone demonstrates proof that's the most likely truth.

Those Bible myths have nothing to do with my God-messenger.

No they do because your "prophet" claims Jesus was an actual real messenger.

Of self-delusions are a common part of the human experience that would apply to more than just religious beliefs.

Yes people delude themselves for many things but religious reasons are the most common ways to delude oneself.

There is nothing in logic that says that the stories to cannot be created by people but also inspired by the Holy Spirit.

First, there is. A "holy spirit" has never been demonstrated. It's a fiction same as a demon. Even worse is now you have to pick and choose which was inspired. You quote John on one thing but assume other things he says are myth. This is not logical at all. Logic says you are believing myths.

That means absolutely nothing and it is a logical fallacy called the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions to say that just because Scientologists think x and x is not true that of Baha’is believe x, x is not true.

Except it's not hasty because I've been checking out Baha'is scripture for years as well as looked into the prophetic claims. It's definitely created by a man. I cannot understand why people would think an actual God would write ridiculous vague prophecies and odd flowery prose. Or dictate such to a person. Logic that this is a creation that combines several religious concepts to match the religious climate in the region and time is almost certain.

That is your impression but that is biased by the fact that you do not believe that Baha’u’llah was more than a person. I was not impressed by what Baha’u’llah wrote when I first read it either but that was because I did not understand what it meant, so I gave up and read other Baha’i Writings until I learned more about the Faith. Now that I know the divine station of Baha’u’llah, it all makes sense to me why He wrote what He did the way He did.

I do understand what he means and I am sure he is a creative human author.

Can you give me an example of a fictional story in Baha’i scriptures?

First of all "God" is a fiction. The Baha'i scriptures when describing Moses speak as if there really was a Moses and they ventured out of Egypt. Moses is a fictional character and the Israelites came from the Canaanites.
The Baha’i scripture was clearly written by a man who was familiar with the OT.

I agree, those are myths.

But your scripture speaks of Christ as a god-man.

Great please demonstrate how you can show what was inspired by God and who a messenger of God is.

It's really not hard to understand what humans are capable of in a literary sense. We also can easily judge how informed an author is. A God who was dictating text could SO EASILY provide information that demonstrated beyond a doubt this was a supernatural agent.
Baha'i scripture says nothing can be destroyed and that an element always remained. Wow, what a coincidence, we already knew about elements. Not one single bit of unknown science is ever uttered.

Great please demonstrate how you can show what was insThen show whatever was inspired by God could not possibly be simply written by a person with a good idea.

See now you are hiding behind concepts of falsifiability.

I'm looking for decent evidence, not playing games. I cannot prove words supposedly spoken by Zeus were not but I'm going with not. Until some reasonable evidence is put forth.

I believe was inspired by God could not possibly have been written by a person with a good idea, as that is also a matter of belief.

No, it is not a matter of belief. I will believe gravity because it can be demonstrated. Religion is a matter of emotional manipulation. One wants it to be true and finds a way to accept bad evidence.

The only way to know what is false is to know what is true. I believe that as a Baha’i I have that advantage, so I do not have to wonder if Jesus resurrected or if Jesus is going to return because that is all explained in the Baha’i Writings.

Cool, prove it.

If you believe that you believe that. I am not going to try to talk you out of your beliefs.

Because you cannot. You can only provide evidence. I don't "believe" that I believe what the evidence shows.

My belief in Messengers of God is logical to me, not emotional. It is logical because I understand why God uses Messengers having analyzed the reasons repeatedly.

Sounds like BS. So I'll ask how it's logical to say God requires "messengers" and why are they vastly unimpressive and use endless flowery praise?

If you want to run it all together like that, that is your choice. Too much knowledge can be a veil. Baha’u’llah wrote that and it makes sense, if you understand what He means.

Run what together? The truth? You are doing an awful lot of dancing around here. Too much knowledge? That's a line cults love to use. I do understand what Baha scripture I read. It just sounds like a person with some ideas from different religions?

“Know verily that Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one welleth out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is God Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish desire. The one is guided by the principle: “Fear ye God; God will teach you;” 29 the other is but a confirmation of the truth: “Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his Creator.” The former bringeth forth the fruit of patience, of longing desire, of true understanding, and love; whilst the latter can yield naught but arrogance, vainglory and conceit.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 69

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-2.html#pg69

Huge red flag. Anytime one investigates the claims of a religion and they start with "oh oh, too much knowledge is Satan" it's wrong on so many levels. See how you frame any knowledge that suggests this is myth as being in the "Satan" category?
What about -
He who arises with steadfastness to serve the cause of God must be a manifestation of wisdom, striving to remove ignorance from amongst human beings. -
So I automatically have to buy it when a guy claims to be speaking for God? Nope. Provide evidence that would warrant belief.

Looks and first impressions can lead one to the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

I've been asking for evidence and we have somehow moved to "woah, slow down with knowledge and information buddy, that will get you nowhere..."

You are sticking with what you believe is truth and that is your choice, because we all have free will.

I'm sticking with what evidence provides. I do not have a choice to believe in gravity or believe Thor is not a myth.
I wish otherwise but that's just how it is.

 

[joelr]

Believe whatever you want to believe and I will believe what I believe. Obviously you are not open to changing your beliefs and neither am I, because I have been a Baha’i for 50 years and I have solid reasons for my beliefs, even if they would not be reasons for you to believe.

What do you mean "obviously"? Of course I would change my beliefs? I just learned the crystalline molecular structure is the lowest energy state for molecules because I saw some evidence. I see you saying you have solid evidence, I haven't seen it yet. This is a forum for discussing beliefs and such, no?

The God of the universe has always fluffed around with hidden messages and movements that people barely notice in the beginning, and for a long time afterwards. You will be waiting a long time of you are waiting for God to do something differently. All the evidence indicates that God has always revealed Himself by sending Messengers who establish religions so there is no reason to believe that God is suddenly going to change His Method.

You are demonstrably wrong here. Incredibly wrong.
All the evidence indicates that Yahweh is the same as El or his original wife Ashera. Meaning they were stories created by people.

In fact you earlier said these were myths. You cannot sneak in "yeah they were myth but God was also giving messages". Especially considering if you take out the obvious myths you are left with ideas about human behavior that were clearly around before the religion and are basic concepts that humans did not need gods to explain to them. So no, there have never been messengers of any god ever.
It's even worse that you are suggesting prophets were getting God messages but the majority of the scripture is about how much you better not believe in a different God and how much hell is going to suck for non-believers.
But that's all wrong, God was just saying be nice to everyone but it sounded like "NO GRAVEN IMAGES"?

 

[joelr]

I do not believe those stories, they are just stories.

That is absolutely correct. Since Jesus was a mirror image of God, seeing Jesus was akin to seeing God, but in Jesus only the attributes of God were seen, not the Essence if God, so Jesus was God manifesting God's attributes in the flesh. The Essence of God forever remains a mystery.

The fact that you think some biblical tales are stories and others are real makes your beliefs a unsorted mess.

That's right, I am going to say they are fiction, because nobody has ever seen God. The most I would believe is that the Israelites heard God's Voice but even that is a stretch.

Yeah but we know the OT are myths so this is another strike against your beliefs.

I do not know what verses you are referring to, but I believe there has been an update. Eternal life now comes through belief in Baha'u'llah, but I cannot say that it cannot also be attained through Jesus, and I cannot say that nonbelievers have no chance of eternal life. Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(F

Like I said, a guy from the 1800's who accepted much of the mythology the common religions adopted from the Persians. No proof, no evidence. It would have been better if he dropped the "you might get into heaven if the sky-god has mercy" baloney but that's what it is.

Also in the Loom of Reality he seems to think Adam was a real man which we know is actually taken from Mesopotamian myths and goes against evolution. You already claimed these were myths but the Baha scripture doesn't seem to think so. He does say evolution is real (weird contradiction) but that it stops for man because nature does not seek to build a higher form. It does not stop. This is a misunderstanding of evolution and biology that was clearly made up by a person.

He also thinks number 9 is the highest number because 10 is a continuation of 1.
True, but only in base 10. It would be 8 or 11 or 12 in a different base. Some civilizations used different base number systems. So that's numerology nonsense, not God wisdom.

I'm seeing some terrible science in the "scientific proof of God" as well. The author doesn't realize the laws of physics accounts for composition of forms and thinks "humidity" is inherent in one water molecule. The logical line that the human form proves the "will of the creator" is just bad science and bad logic.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I do not speak for anybody. I am just passing along what I believe. I believe that the Essence of God is unknowable and God exists in His own high place, forever separate from humans. As such, nobody can ever know what God is doing at any time, nor has anyone seen God at any time.

You seem to know a lot about what god has or hasn't done. Later posts are full of you knowing.

The God of the universe has always fluffed around with hidden messages and movements that people barely notice in the beginning, and for a long time afterwards. You will be waiting a long time of you are waiting for God to do something differently. All the evidence indicates that God has always revealed Himself by sending Messengers who establish religions so there is no reason to believe that God is suddenly going to change His Method.

I do not believe those stories, they are just stories.

That is absolutely correct. Since Jesus was a mirror image of God, seeing Jesus was akin to seeing God, but in Jesus only the attributes of God were seen, not the Essence if God, so Jesus was God manifesting God's attributes in the flesh. The Essence of God forever remains a mystery.

That's right, I am going to say they are fiction, because nobody has ever seen God. The most I would believe is that the Israelites heard God's Voice but even that is a stretch.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

God decided.

Neither one. It is a call for something new.

One religion would be ideal but that won't happen for a long time. We envision one universal auxiliary language but it would not necessarily be English.

We also believe that everyone should keep their native languages, so everyone would be able to speak both languages.

That's true.

As it is envisioned by Baha'u'llah, every nation would continue to govern themselves but a world government would oversee all those governments. This is a big subject.

What Will the New World Order Look Like?

What happens if some don't want one government, one language, religion, education etc?

Or people like Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Bin Laden, etc decided to pick up arms?

So what language do you envisage becoming the second one? What religion? Or is this a sneaky way to get in Baha'ism?

A world government overseeing all others is a stupid idea. How do you govern different economies and cultures?

I already know your answer. Itwill have to wait for a new type of Man.

 

[CG Didymus]

How do you think that a deity would/could do that?

The question.

Well in the OT Yahweh shows up as a pillar of smoke and fire (at night). He rides in on a giant God-chariot at one point. He fights a sea monster at another. He sends his guy (Satan) to deliver a plague to kill 70,000 people.

The answer... From the Scriptures of one of the true "revealed" religions. But...

Lol, do you actually believe that any of that actually happened?

None of those things really happened?

Ah, so now one groups God-stories are myth but your God-messenger is legit.

And this is exactly what Baha'is are doing... making "myths" or making things "symbolic" to make the other religion's Scriptures fit with the Baha'i teachings.

Those Bible myths have nothing to do with my God-messenger.

Now you do call them "myths" But, what happened to the "progression"? So the previous religions have been abrogated, are irrelevant, are filled with myth, have been misinterpreted and have had man-made traditions added in... Oh, and, except for the Quran and the Baha'i writings, weren't written/dictated by the messenger.

No they do because your "prophet" claims Jesus was an actual real messenger.

All the "true" religions Baha'is use as a stepping stone of progressive knowledge of God that leads to their religion. Yet, those other religions are myth? Yes, that is exactly what Baha'is are saying. With Christianity the main myths being the resurrection and a belief in Satan. In Judaism... the myths were that God spoke or appeared in any form to prove himself real to the people. So it sounds more like God's messages were not only flawed, but deceptive and misleading. but... could they even be said to be lies? So were they from a God or from people? Do myths come from a God or from people? There is so very little that Baha'is really believe about the other "true" "revealed" religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

All the evidence indicates that Yahweh is the same as El or his original wife Ashera. Meaning they were stories created by people.

El and Yahweh? Not that Trailblazer cares, since she "lives" in the present. Which means what? She ignores the past? But it sure sounds like a lot of myth making going on in those olden days.

However, it is said in Genesis 14:18–20 that Abraham accepted the blessing of El, when Melchizedek, the king of Salem and high priest of its deity El Elyon blessed him.[28] One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl. Another is that in much of the Hebrew Bible the name El is an alternative name for Yahweh, but in the Elohist and Priestly traditions it is considered an earlier name than Yahweh.[29] Mark Smith has argued that Yahweh and El were originally separate, but were considered synonymous from very early on.[30] The name Yahweh is used in the Bible Tanakh in the first book of Genesis 2:4; and Genesis 4:26 says that at that time, people began to "call upon the name of the LORD".[31][32]

In some places, especially in Psalm 29, Yahweh is clearly envisioned as a storm god,[33] something not true of Ēl so far as we know[34] (although true of his son, Ba'al Haddad).[35] It is Yahweh who is prophesied to one day battle Leviathan the serpent, and slay the dragon in the sea in Isaiah 27:1.[36] The slaying of the serpent in myth is a deed attributed to both Ba’al Hadad and ‘Anat in the Ugaritic texts, but not to Ēl.[37]​

 

[Trailblazer]

You seem to know a lot about what god has or hasn't done. Later posts are full of you knowing.

I only know what Baha'u'llah has revealed about God, and what He revealed is that God sends Messengers.
God also rules and maintains all of existence.
Other than that, I do not know what God is "doing" at any time.

 

[Trailblazer]

I already know your answer. It will have to wait for a new type of Man.

Then why did you ask?

 

[Trailblazer]

What happens if some don't want one government, one language, religion, education etc?

Or people like Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Bin Laden, etc decided to pick up arms?

So what language do you envisage becoming the second one? What religion? Or is this a sneaky way to get in Baha'ism?

A world government overseeing all others is a stupid idea. How do you govern different economies and cultures?

Nobody has the answers to these questions yet. Why live in the future, isn't the present enough?

I will never understand people who live in the distant future, I cannot even think past the day I am in.

 

[Trailblazer]

All the "true" religions Baha'is use as a stepping stone of progressive knowledge of God that leads to their religion. Yet, those other religions are myth? Yes, that is exactly what Baha'is are saying.

No, that is not what we are saying. Just because we believe SOME of the Bible is fictional stories that were used to convey spiritual truths that does not mean that ALL of the Bible is fictional stories, or myths. This is very understandable. Back in ancient times, myths were used to convey spiritual truths, but we are not LIVING in those days anymore. Humanity has progressed intellectually, so we do not need stories, because we can understand straight talk.

Again, this is the general Baha'i position on the Bible:

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I only know what Baha'u'llah has revealed about God, and what He revealed is that God sends Messengers.
God also rules and maintains all of existence.
Other than that, I do not know what God is "doing" at any time.

You only know what Bahaullah says. You don't question his word even when you know it's wrong. Waiting for a New Race of Men is a pointless exercise to make any of his plans workable.

A new race of men who will accept what they are told like automatons. Not question anything.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Nobody has the answers to these questions yet. Why live in the future, isn't the present enough?

I will never understand people who live in the distant future, I cannot even think past the day I am in.

Like you waiting for your new race of men????

I pointed out a few of the worse if you want to know the present-day problem. List of ongoing armed conflicts - Wikipedia

​

How do you deal with these problems today?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, that is not what we are saying. Just because we believe SOME of the Bible is fictional stories that were used to convey spiritual truths that does not mean that ALL of the Bible is fictional stories, or myths. This is very understandable. Back in ancient times, myths were used to convey spiritual truths, but we are not LIVING in those days anymore. Humanity has progressed intellectually, so we do not need stories, because we can understand straight talk.

Again, this is the general Baha'i position on the Bible:

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

So how does he tell which bits are true and which bits are fiction?

The OT was compiled while the jews were in exile in Babylon to keep the tribe together. A purely political exercise.

The NT was composed by Constantine to replace the old Roman gods. A purely political exercise.

 

[Trailblazer]

You only know what Bahaullah says. You don't question his word even when you know it's wrong.

I do not know that it is wrong. I know that it is right.

Maybe you do not understand why, so I will explain it to you.

God is infallible so God cannot ever be wrong. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was God's Representative on earth, and we believe that the will of Baha'ullah is identical to the will of God, so it follows that Baha'u'llah cannot ever be wrong.

Waiting for a New Race of Men is a pointless exercise to make any of his plans workable.

A new race of men who will accept what they are told like automatons. Not question anything.

The plans can be put into place before the New Race of Men emerges. They are presently being put into place. It will be a long time before a New Race of Men emerges, we do not have to wait for that before we do anything.

The New Race of Men will not question the Messenger of God because that is illogical, since a fallible human cannot know MORE than an infallible Messenger.

 

[Trailblazer]

Like you waiting for your new race of men????

As I just said, we are not waiting for New Race of Men to emerge before we do anything.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I do not know that it is wrong. I know that it is right.

Maybe you do not understand why, so I will explain it to you.

God is infallible so God cannot ever be wrong. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was God's Representative on earth, and we believe that the will of Baha'ullah is identical to the will of God, so it follows that Baha'u'llah cannot ever be wrong.

You believe. None of what you believe is proven.

The plans can be put into place before the New Race of Men emerges. They are presently being put into place. It will be a long time before a New Race of Men emerges, we do not have to wait for that before we do anything.

The New Race of Men will not question the Messenger of God because that is illogical, since a fallible human cannot know MORE than an infallible Messenger.

So the New Race of Men won't question your messenger. Like I said automatons. You just robbed the New Race of Men of their free will. Billions know Bahaullah plans are unworkable therefore your messenger is false. Now, what will you do?

So what are Baha'is doing to make it happen sooner?

 

[Trailblazer]

So how does he tell which bits are true and which bits are fiction?

God knows so to Baha'is that means that Baha'u'llah also knew, since He had the knowledge of God.

That's how we know.