Are Shrines a Form of Idolatry?

[SeekerOnThePath]

Like when the Christians worships their book instead of the real God.

And a man.


I was about to bust that one out till I noticed OP was a Jehovahs Witness who don't believe Jesus was God incarnate (which is idolatry). Just as well, close call, lol.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

According to Christianity, yes...

Yet Christians worship Jesus (which is idolatry), so an idolater's opinion on idolatry is just an irony.

 

[Quintessence]

It is obviously a universal idea to have such a place, or to hold something material as sacred....so where did this practice come from?

I don't wager you'll agree with this theologically, but consider the Pagan context out of which all contemporary religions arose (and many religions still practice under). The divine/sacred/gods were recognized as residing within nature - what you would probably label as "idolatry" or some such. The very land was sacred, individual rivers homes to specific gods or spirits, and places of power were just intuitive recognized as such. Our ancestors and many peoples yet today recognize places of power and honor them appropriately. We can also create such places of power and this is a major part of many people's religious practices.

 

[Deeje]

So would not a JW house of worship also be regarded as such?

Regards Tony

Is a house of worship necessarily a shrine though?

When the first Christians met for worship after their withdrawal from Judaism, there were no showy display buildings because as the Jews had done, they separated worship at the Temple from worship at the Synagogue.

When we consider what the words "Temple" and "church" mean today, we usually think of them both as a building....but in fact in ancient times only the Temple was a building. In the first century, the "church" was a congregation of the people. The building where the congregation met was not really that important.

We can just as easily worship our God in a field or a forest and still be in his presence.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

@The Artis Magistra

One hilarity I get from the really crazy Christians (not on this forum so far though) is the claim that Muslims worship the Kaaba. It's absolutely absurd. Anyway, I know you're Quran-alone (or whatever) but still...

I always throw this back at them.

Christians (the crazy ones), by their own logic worship their worship bands:

However of course, as we know from the Qur'an itself, it's the same idea of Mizrah in Judaism.
Why Do We Face East When Praying? Or Do We? - How to calculate mizrach
Jews pray facing Jerusalem.
Qur'an addresses this in Surah Baqarah.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Unless you worship the shrine, then shrines are just.......shrines....

 

[Deeje]

Yet Christians worship Jesus (which is idolatry), so an idolater's opinion on idolatry is just an irony.

Please allow me to correct you.....'Christendom' worships Jesus.....'Christians' do not.

True Christians worship the same God that Jesus did. I am a member of the Christian congregation and I do not worship Jesus. He would be horrified, as that would be in breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Please allow me to correct you.....'Christendom' worships Jesus.....'Christians' do not.

True Christians worship the same God that Jesus did. I am a member of the Christian congregation and I do not worship Jesus. He would be horrified, as that would be in breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

I agree with you in what you mean but not in the terms you use. Jesus definitely was a strong monotheist (a believer in "Jehovah" as you call it) and his quoting of the Shema, twice, proves this, alongside his clear distinction that he doesn't identify as God and wouldn't.

The early followers of Jesus were not "Christians", they were Nazarenes (to which the term "The Way" is also denoted with them, both in and outside the NT). The term "Christian" and "Christianity" originated as a pejorative, only mentioned twice in NT epistles, which later became flipped on it's head as a self-designation which one stream (from the followers of Peter and Paul) came to identify as, later solidifying as the Catholic Church. Protestants when separating from Catholicism still carried over the self-designation of "Christian".

 

[Deeje]

I agree with you in what you mean but not in the terms you use. Jesus definitely was a strong monotheism and his quoting of the Shema, twice, proves this, alongside his clear distinction that he doesn't identify as God and wouldn't.

The followers of Jesus were not "Christians", they were Nazarenes (to which the term "The Way" is also denoted with them, both in and outside the NT).

Yes, those belonging to "The Way" were a class of Jews who followed Jesus out of Judaism, which had long lost it way. His condemnation of the Jewish religious leaders left no one in any doubt that he thought very little of their conduct or their teachings. (Matthew 23)

The term "Christian" and "Christianity" originated as a pejorative, only mentioned twice in NT epistles, which later became flipped on it's head as a self-designation which one stream (from the followers of Peter and Paul) came to identify as, later solidifying as the Catholic Church. Protestants when separating from Catholicism still carried over the self-designation of "Christian".

The term "Christian" simply means a follower of Christ.....what happened after the first century ended, with the death of the last apostle John, "Christianity" headed down the same path to apostasy as Judaism had....they adopted the traditions of men over the word of God. Jesus and his apostles foretold it but Christendom denies that it ever happened. Christendom is not Christianity.

Its not about what you call yourself....as Jesus made clear. Its not about what you say...its about what you do...who you are....and how your beliefs affect the way you worship.

God does not accept false worship....period. Jesus showed us what true worship is all about.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Words in a book are not tangible things like statues or geographical places of religious significance. The Bible is no more an idol to believers than an instruction manual is to an engineer or mechanic. If the engineer or mechanic proceeds to worship the author of their instruction manual, and starts to reverence some possession of his....then that might be a problem.

The physical book has the words in it just as physical statues and beads represent and are tools for prayer and study. The usage of these physical objects are important. Probably more so with JW because to evangelize (and remember the verses) you do need to follow not just the words but the Word. It's a supliment to your worship.

But as long as your worship is directed to the only legitimate object of worship, (the one who authored the instruction manual for his worshippers) there is no problem.

There is only one legitimate object of devotion for both Jews and Christians....and that is the God who authored our scripture. He shares his place with nothing and no one.

The legitimate "object" of worship?

But only god is to be worshiped. Why would you need the bible to communicate with god?

True Christians worship the same God that Jesus did. I am a member of the Christian congregation and I do not worship Jesus. He would be horrified, as that would be in breach of the first Commandment

When you put jesus "up high" that's a form of worship. Many religions have tier deities they worship. But there's always a connection.

I actually don't know any religion that doesn't have some form of idolism. Most religions have no issue as Quin mentioned it's just their lifestyle really.

 

[Deeje]

Let's not forget that there was a temple in Jewish religion, which was in fact the same thing as all of these places you cited. A place of worship. Sites for devotion are there to bring people together, and to direct the devotees attention to the divine, which the shrine or temple is designed to invite and encourage for the faithful.

The difference being that the Temple was built at God's request and to his specifications.
No building of the Christian faith ever included anything resembling a physical building. The "church" was the people....the building didn't matter. But when the congregations increased in size, buildings became necessary....but they were to be modest meeting places for Bible education and instruction. The gigantic and palacious cathedrals of past centuries stood in stark contrast to anything Jesus commanded. It seems as if there was a competition to see who could outdo whom with the most ornate and elaborate edifice....and all whilst the poor among them were starving......?

Where was Jesus when they were shedding innocent blood? I'm afraid he had long left the building.

When does it cross over into idolatry? When a focus of our devotion becomes an excuse to ignore the principles of your religion and place your beliefs ahead of love. The bible itself, is one example where many faithful turn it into an idol, worshiping their beliefs about it, over the needs and sufferings of others. It's idolatry, when it's used to promote your ego, instead of inspiring faith.

It crosses over into idolatry when we put "things" before God....when we concentrate on physical things like buildings and the accumulation of wealth and power before we consider how we worship and whether it is authentic to God, not just to ourselves.

Keeping the masses in ignorance for centuries and torturing confessions out of 'heretics' as an excuse to silence them was par for the course.....there is no Christianity there....nor can there be in anything that sprang from them.

The needs and suffering of others is not fixable by human means as we are all well aware. Humans are too selfish to care about their fellow man. Only God can fix what is wrong because he will eliminate the cause, not just provide a band-aid.

The Bible can be an idol if it is misused or ignored which is what I see most of the time. It was never designed to beat people up, but to educate them and give them hope and dignity. Jesus showed us how to do that too and encouraged his disciples to do the same.

Egos have no place in Christian worship, but God can use inspiring speakers to build up the faith of others.

 

[Deeje]

The physical book has the words in it just as physical statues and beads represent and are tools for prayer and study.

The thing is...if you purport to be a Christian, then you must stick to Jesus' teachings. There were no statues or beads or repetitious prayers in original Christianity. These things did not come from Jesus. The "tools" for prayer and study were intimately involved with God's spirit. He can be worshipped anywhere...even in a jail cell. There are no physical substitutes.

The usage of these physical objects are important. Probably more so with JW because to evangelize (and remember the verses) you do need to follow not just the words but the Word. It's a supliment to your worship.

I have no idea what you mean by that. You are often so far off the mark in your responses that you completely lose me. The Bible is God's instruction manual.....we follow it because we are told by Jesus that sticking to it is the only guarantee of success in life. That success has nothing to do with this world or what it values.

The legitimate "object" of worship?

The God who wrote the instruction manual is the legitimate object of our worship.....is that rocket science?

But only god is to be worshiped. Why would you need the bible to communicate with god?

We communicate with God through prayer.....God communicates with us through his written word.
What would we understand about God or the right way to worship if we did not have the scriptures?

If you want to throw the instruction manual out and do things your own way, God will let you....that is your choice to make....he will not interfere.

When you put jesus "up high" that's a form of worship. Many religions have tier deities they worship. But there's always a connection.

God put Jesus "high up"....the apostles put Jesus "high up".....why? Because he was the second greatest personage in existence next to his God and Father.

We put Jesus "high up" because he is the King of God's Kingdom.....do you have a problem with that?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Why do people need to see images, or to have 'holy places' in order to worship their gods?
Why is this such a universal thing?

We are evolved to be visual creatures , so why let this strike you as being surprising? Even in the bible itself, in the visions of heaven with all the weird creatures and objects, its meant to try and dazzle the vision. The early church is said to have shown pictures to the illiterate masses. People were amazed by the miracles from jesus, which they saw, paul was stunned at what he saw on the road to damascus, and whole book of revelation throws random and strange images at the reader with every sentence

 

[Deeje]

I don't wager you'll agree with this theologically, but consider the Pagan context out of which all contemporary religions arose (and many religions still practice under). The divine/sacred/gods were recognized as residing within nature - what you would probably label as "idolatry" or some such. The very land was sacred, individual rivers homes to specific gods or spirits, and places of power were just intuitive recognized as such. Our ancestors and many peoples yet today recognize places of power and honor them appropriately. We can also create such places of power and this is a major part of many people's religious practices.

You speak as if the worship of Israel's God only came into existence when they did. Not so according to the Bible. If anyone 'copied' it was the pagans who copied off the early settlers of the earth after the flood of Noah's day.
All survivors of the flood were worshippers of Israel's God......so, long before Abraham's descendants were formed into a nation, it was the era of the Patriarchs who worshipped the true God, Yahweh. Their stories are part of the Hebrew scriptures.

In my belief system there were no 'pagans' originally. False worship as a concept only came about after the flood when Noah's great grandson (Nimrod) began a rebellion of his own. He built his own monument to himself in the city and Tower of Babel, and demonstrated himself to be in opposition to the God of his grandfather.

The angels that materialized before the flood, caused ruin and chaos on the earth and provided all the necessary elements for the 'gods and demi-gods' of the cultures who took the flood legends with them when God forced a scattering of mankind at the Tower of Babel, which according to legend, was built so that if God was to flood the world again their tower "with its top in the heavens" would save them. (Genesis 11:1-9)

Nature spirits and such came into human imagination and the resulting religious ideas and practices that ensued, did not take mankind to good places....but divided them by location, culture and language.

This is what I believe we see the vestiges of even today, when religion is dying in a very secular world.

 

[Shia Islam]

It seems as if shrines are associated with many different religions.....so what is a shrine and what do they mean for the people who visit them?


China

Japan

Iran

Lourdes

Bankok

Baha'i

Tibet

Italy

Israel

Mecca

Here are some definitions......

“A place of religious devotion or commemoration, such as:

• A place where devotion is paid to a deity or deities, as in Shinto.
• The tomb of a saint or other venerated person.
• A location where an important event in the life of a holy person is thought to have occurred.

A container or receptacle for sacred relics; a reliquary.

A site hallowed by association with a revered person or object or with an important event.

Any site or structure used in worship or devotion; esp., an area or a temple or templelike structure used in the worship of one or more deities.

The definition of a shrine is a holy or sacred place, or a small area or monument dedicated to someone, or a place known as the site of a religious occurrence or a historical event.

A holy or sacred place dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, or similar figure of awe and respect, at which said figure is venerated or worshipped.

A case, box, or receptacle, especially one in which are deposited sacred relics, as the bones of a saint.

A niche or other setting for a statue, picture, or other object arousing or designed to arouse devotion.

A small area or structure arranged for private devotion.

A place revered as the place of death or burial of a saint or other venerable personage.

A place revered as the site of a reported supernatural apparition, miraculous occurrence, etc.

Any of certain churches or chapels often visited by pilgrims, specif. by those seeking special spiritual help, cures, etc.

A place or structure esteemed for its importance or centrality as in history or the arts.

A place or structure designed as a memorial to someone or something.

A place or object hallowed from its history or associations.

A shrine of art.”

SHRINE | 19 Definitions of Shrine - YourDictionary

Why do people need to see images, or to have 'holy places' in order to worship their gods?
Why is this such a universal thing?

Thoughts?

In Islam, we believe that only God can bring good and ward off evil. Even the prophet, and the 12 Shia Imams are nothing but slaves of God, who are in need of God’s mercy.

However, everything attached to God should be revered and is sacred. This includes the prophets and the Imams, and their burial places.

Yes, the prophet can ask God for you, and God will normally answer the prayer of his prophet. And the same is for the imam.

However, although we should always ask God for ourselves. Due to our bad deeds, our prayers will not always be answered.

 

[Deeje]

We are evolved to be visual creatures , so why let this strike you as being surprising?

I am surprised that you can mention worship and evolution in the same sentence....how on earth can religion be a product of evolution? What other sentient creatures do you know that 'worship' in any manner shape or form? What purpose would it serve in the animal kingdom?

Even in the bible itself, in the visions of heaven with all the weird creatures and objects, its meant to try and dazzle the vision. The early church is said to have shown pictures to the illiterate masses.

What pictures could the "early church" show anyone? How "early" are we talking here?

People were amazed by the miracles from jesus, which they saw, paul was stunned at what he saw on the road to damascus, and whole book of revelation throws random and strange images at the reader with every sentence

All of it is perfectly explainable if you are familiar with the Bible's narrative. It all fits together to form a picture of another realm where the fantastic and supernatural are commonplace. It is a complete contrast to the earth and natural things in a physical world.....where none of those "supernatural" things are "natural" at all.

Revelation is presented in symbolisms so not really as far fetched as it might sound.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I am surprised that you can mention worship and evolution in the same sentence....how on earth can religion be a product of evolution? What other sentient creatures do you know that 'worship' in any manner shape or form? What purpose would it serve in the animal kingdom?

Evolution crafted your senses and perception, and the data eventually poured into the mind, where it was held to judgement by early humans. They decided that religion should be expressed , for they felt that they were connected to something greater than they. Just as animals naturally engage in the dance of life in nature, humans engaged in the dance of the gods, and nature, and so they served as the bridge. Eventually they became over-inundated with data, and became fragmented and confused with what they believe and know. They will have hard time getting the connection again, unless they can become the masters of data, which they are up to their necks in

What pictures could the "early church" show anyone? How "early" are we talking here?

General people were likely illiterate for a long time, and I thought that pictures were often used to give them a visual description of biblical stories

All of it is perfectly explainable if you are familiar with the Bible's narrative. It all fits together to form a picture of another realm where the fantastic and supernatural are commonplace. It is a complete contrast to the earth and natural things in a physical world.....where none of those "supernatural" things are "natural" at all.

Revelation is presented in symbolisms so not really as far fetched as it might sound.

When you think about it, everything we see is fantastic, impossible, and supernatural enough. Why should I even see a wave lap against a shore, and not think that this is impossible.. The only reason is that I was somehow inured to seeing general things like this. But if I existed in an even more basic world where that was considered a magical thing to see, then a wave lapping on the shore would be fantastic and supernatural. I could still think of it as a fantastic/supernatural thing even now, if I appreciate it the way I probably should, for you should be amazed that there is a wave for you to behold, that is lapping against a shore. Whatever special effects that are found in heaven, are therefore only waiting for the individual to become accustomed to them, are they not? Or will the individual eventually get used to seeing things that it once would think were miraculous, but then saw to be reality

 

[blü 2]

Why do people need to see images, or to have 'holy places' in order to worship their gods?
Why is this such a universal thing?

Thoughts?

Gods exist only as ideas / concepts / things imagined.

That appears to be because humans have evolved such that all cultures have supernatural beings of one kind or another; and the evolutionary advantage appears to be as reinforcing tribal unity.

Thus things like language, customs, stories, heroes, and religion are usual parts of tribal identity.

So I'd opine that shrines and reliquaries and churches and pyramids and holy places and objects and jewellery with religious symbols and festivals and observances are all ways of asserting tribal identity and presence and authority.

 

[Salty Booger]

It seems as if shrines are associated with many different religions.....so what is a shrine and what do they mean for the people who visit them?

People love to build monuments, both as tokens to their God(s) and as pointers for the next generation.

 

[thomas t]

Jesus was God incarnate (which is idolatry)

why is that idolatry. No it's not, I think. The almighty God can do anything. Whatever he wants, even come to earth in the form of a human being.