Are the gospels reliable historical documents? // YES

[halbhh]

I disagree. Telling people from whom they can buy slaves from. Where to buy them. And how to trick one's fellow Hebrews into lifetime slavery is advocating slavery to me.

Exodus 21:16 Whoever kidnaps another man must be put to death, whether he sells him or the man is found in his possession.

Leviticus 25:39 If a countryman among you becomes destitute and sells himself to you, then you must not force him into slave labor.
(and following verses lay out more)

(Perhaps you should consider that when I said slavery is increasingly regulated, restricted, more and more, over time in the bible, that it must be that I noticed that pattern, and it must have been quite clear. Else how would I have just reported that to you?)

 

[leroy]

For the same reason that eventhough the quran gets many details correct, that does not mean that we should it give it "the benefit of the doubt" that mohammed flew to the heavens on a winged horse or split the moon in 2.

Can you give an example of any ancient myth that has nearly as many correct historical demographic, historical and political details as the gospels do?

can you show that the author of the Koran was as well informed as the author of any of the Gospels?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Exodus 21:16 Whoever kidnaps another man must be put to death, whether he sells him or the man is found in his possession.

Leviticus 25:39 If a countryman among you becomes destitute and sells himself to you, then you must not force him into slave labor.
(and following verses lay out more)

(Perhaps you should consider that when I said slavery is increasingly regulated, restricted, more and more, over time in the bible, that it must be that I noticed that pattern, and it must have been quite clear. Else how would I have just reported that to you?)

And weren't you talking about context not that long ago? It appears that you do not understand that Hebrews were treated differently than foreigners.

And yes, the morals of the Bible evolved and improved over time. But they should not have had to. Not if it is the word of an omnipotent omniscient God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Can you give an example of any ancient myth that has nearly as many correct historical demographic, historical and political details as the gospels do?

can you show that the author of the Koran was as well informed as the author of any of the Gospels?

Be careful. A Muslim might be able to. And remember, you don't get to count the hits if you ignore the misses.

 

[halbhh]

And weren't you talking about context not that long ago? It appears that you do not understand that Hebrews were treated differently than foreigners.

And yes, the morals of the Bible evolved and improved over time. But they should not have had to. Not if it is the word of an omnipotent omniscient God.

I'm aware of the various laws and situations since I read through all the books. Therefore, I accurately summarized that over time, captivity of all kinds is increasingly regulated until the actual beginning of the outright end of slavery entirely, as inevitable once Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. is spoken by Christ.

The beginning of the end of slavery -- Philemon -- is only the inevitable outcome of Matthew 7:12.

Nothing else would fit Matthew 7:12 after one progresses in faith enough to actually realize what it says, and take it in, mentally.

Of course, it's basic that at any given time only some of the religious people actually act righteously. Christ spoke on that many times, to the great ire of the pharisees and other religious authorities.
See: Matthew 23 NIV

 

[leroy]

Being a mighty dragonball fan...

I'm curious why you asked that question.

As a fan you must be familiar with Kami (the god)

So just like Just like Jesus Kami:

1 He was born form a virgin Kami is an Alien whose race is asexual, so tecnically he came form a virgen

2 had 12 disciples (Goku, Popo, Kriling, Ten Shin han, Chaos, Yajorobe, Yamcha, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Gotenx, Supergotenx)

3 was 3 in 1 like In the trinity (Kami, Piccolo, Shen long)

4 he died and resurrected

5 he came to earth in the form of a human

Would you say that the cartoon (or the manga) was inspired in the Gospels? ……..obviously no, anyone can take any 2 independent stories and neat pick in the search for parallels. Yes Kami was born from a virgin because he was an Alien whose race is asexual, so everybody is born from a virgin……….but nothing to do with the virgin birth described in the gospels.

When people say that the gospels are just updated stories from other gods or from the Old Testament they use this kind of neat picking.

 

[leroy]

What you call "corroborating" is no more then "repeating the claim".

When I tell you that I saw a ghost last night and you believe me and subsequently you then repeat to someone else that I saw a ghost last night, then you are not "corroborating that event". Instead, you are just repeating my claim.

Affirming belief in a claim and repeating it is not the same as corroborating / supporting said claim.
............

How does that relate to the claim that I made related to peter and the risen Jesus??

 

[leroy]

I disagree. Telling people from whom they can buy slaves from. Where to buy them. And how to trick one's fellow Hebrews into lifetime slavery is advocating slavery to me.

EDIT: Your last verse does not support your claim. That was only about freeing one particular slave. Not ending all slavery.

What’s your point with slavery?.........obviously from the fact that there are parts in the bible that you personally don’t like, it doesn’t follow that the bible is wrong, so what’s your point?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm aware of the various laws and situations since I read through all the books. Therefore, I accurately summarized that over time, captivity of all kinds is increasingly regulated until the actual beginning of the outright end of slavery entirely, as inevitable once Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. is spoken by Christ.

The beginning of the end of slavery -- Philemon -- is only the inevitable outcome of Matthew 7:12.

Nothing else would fit Matthew 7:12 after one progresses in faith enough to actually realize what it says, and take it in, mentally.

Of course, it's basic that at any given time only some of the religious people actually act righteously. Christ spoke on that many times, to the great ire of the pharisees and other religious authorities.
See: Matthew 23 NIV

Yes, it could be argued that the end of slavery was an ultimate Christian goal. Though many slave owners could also use the Bible to defend slavery quite effectively. It is a pick and choose religion after all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What’s your point with slavery?.........obviously from the fact that there are parts in the bible that you personally don’t like, it doesn’t follow that the bible is wrong, so what’s your point?

Actually it pretty much does.

 

[leroy]

This is flat out wrong. Carrier was paid to do a historicity study based on all available evidence and to treat it the way historians are taught to when getting a PhD. He spent 7 years on that project and expected to confirm what his peers believed (historicity).

But he makes a living out of denying the historicity of Jesus, which means that he is a highly biased source, I personally don’t think is a big of deal…..but if you reject the bible because “the authors are biased” you should apply the same standard with all biased sources.

The evidence did not support that and he details it in a 700 age book. He has several free lectures and dozens of debates online and a free blog. All the information is available for inspection.

I have seen his debates, and to me he is using rhetoric and making very wild interpretations.


If Jesus didn’t existed, then why is it that we don’t have any early source describing early Christians as a sect that worship a man that never existed?..........early Christians are mentioned in dozens of ancient documents, why is it that nobody mentioned the religion is based on a man that never existed?

 

[leroy]

Actually it pretty much does.

So in summery

Claim:
the bible is wrong

Evidence
There are things in the bible that you dont like

 

[leroy]

You're coming up short here. I gave you 5 papers on the Paul/Mark connection and a list of examples of how Mark used Paul to craft his narrative. You can't debunk or counter these arguments except to suggest it's like flat earth? You might as well just go all in and use this one "I don't trust secular scholarship" or just call them "heathens".

And my reply was:… so what?... even if I grant that Mark copied from Paul , the fact that Mark described James as a biological brother, indicates that Paul was talking about a biological brother

And somehow you cannot imagine Mark transforming the use of the word brother into a biological brother? Even though Mark also gave Jesus an entire life on Earth, parents and all sorts of miracle events, actions and narratives?

My point is;

If Paul Meant “spiritual brother” and Mark knew that, why did he gave James the title of biological brother?

I don't understand youreference to flat earth?

Because just like Flat Earthers you have creative and unsupported excuses for everything, it wouldn’t matter if there were other 10 independent sources mentioning James as a biological brother, you can always find an excuse,

 

[Subduction Zone]

So in summery

Claim:
the bible is wrong

Evidence
There are things in the bible that you dont like

So wrong, but nice try.

If you had better morals you would see the problem.

 

[leroy]

These coincidences and parallels are so statistically improbable as to render any other explanation effectively impossible: Mark is adapting and playing off of specific content in Romans and 1 Corinthians.

Another possibility is that the author of Mark and Paul did their homework and they both talked to the Eyewitnesses. Which is why we have similarities in their work.

I´ll ask you this:

Exactly what evidence would convince you that James was the biological brother of Jesus?

 

[halbhh]

Yes, it could be argued that the end of slavery was an ultimate Christian goal. Though many slave owners could also use the Bible to defend slavery quite effectively. It is a pick and choose religion after all.

Christ talks about what people choose to do, or not, in Matthew chapter 7 very sharply and clearly. He actually says that only some will be able to enter heaven, and many will not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Christ talks about what people choose to do, or not, in Matthew chapter 7 very sharply and clearly. He actually says that only some will be able to enter heaven, and many will not.

I doubt have a problem with the teachings of Jesus. It is what the rest of the Bible, including Paul teach that is so problematic. With all of the silly laws on mixed fabrics, two different crops in the same field and banning cheeseburgers why couldn't God have just said "Slavery is bad . .. mkay? Its bad. Bad."

 

[nPeace]

So that makes them biased. As in "not independent".

All scientists are biased and un-independent sources. Because they are scientists.
My.

 

[nPeace]

Biased ........yes

non indedependent ...... NO

In your opinion they were biased? Perhaps you are using bias in a different sense to the way I am thinking of bias. So perhaps I should ask... In what way were they biased?

 

[leroy]

So wrong, but nice try.

If you had better morals you would see the problem.

In fact I see many problems with slavery in the Bible . I just want you to elaborate the argument , otherwise you would accuse others of making strawman fallacies.