Are Theists and Atheists Joined at the Hip?

[Sunstone]

Proposition: "Most folks who have never experienced 'god' tend to think of god in ways similar to most atheists who have never experienced 'god'."

Is there any truth to the proposition? Why or why not?

Note: In this context, "god" means the experience of oneness that comes about when subject/object perception ceases while some form of experiencing continues.

 

[Sunstone]

Sorry but I do not want to engage in a debate using alternative words to try to change the result.

This thread is in the mysticism DIR.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

This thread is in the mysticism DIR.

My bad.

Can I politely ask why you put it here?

 

[LuisDantas]

Proposition: "Most folks who have never experienced 'god' tend to think of god in ways similar to most atheists."

Is there any truth to the proposition? Why or why not?

Note: In this context, "god" means the experience of oneness that comes about when subject/object perception ceases while some form of experiencing continues.

Well, no. Most atheists have experienced that. They just do not call it "god".

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Well, no. Most atheists have experienced that. They just do not call it "god".

This is mysticism DIR

 

[Sunstone]

Can I politely ask why you put it here?

Precisely because I think mystics are more apt than not to "get" the definition of god in the OP.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Precisely because I think mystics are more apt than not to "get" the definition of god in the OP.

Can I polity ask why you choose to use the word god with a different definition rather than the word oneness?

 

[Willamena]

Proposition: "Most folks who have never experienced 'god' tend to think of god in ways similar to most atheists."

Is there any truth to the proposition? Why or why not?

Absolutely no truth. To have never experienced something allegedly experiencable precludes you from having thought of it in a similar way to anyone else.

Note: In this context, "god" means the experience of oneness that comes about when subject/object perception ceases while some form of experiencing continues.

 

[LuisDantas]

This is mysticism DIR

I know.

 

[Sunstone]

Can I polity ask why you choose to use the word god with a different definition rather than the word oneness?

The experience of oneness is what many mystics -- but not all -- interpret as an experience of god.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

The experience of oneness is what many mystics -- but not all -- interpret as an experience of god.

Do you know why those mystics do so?

 

[Sunstone]

Do you know why those mystics do so?

I suppose it has to do with several things. My keyboard, however, is about shot (I get a new one soon). So long posts are hard today. I'll write more when I get a new board.

 

[EtuMalku]

From a Western Left Hand Path understanding:

Perennial philosophy is the understanding that all the world's Right Hand Path religions share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe. The way in which this is achieved is through what many Western Left Hand Path's recognize as a deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy otherwise known as the objective universe.

This is not the stance one takes as a Luciferian, the objective universe is seen as it plainly is, a non-conscious, unintelligent memetic mechanism composed of Time, Space & Matter. To absolve one's self into this is antithetic to the Western Left Hand Path goals of individuation and autotheism. Symbolically, this resistance to perennialism is the basis of such occult structures as the Tree of Daath and the ideals behind furthering the Fall of the Tree of Life because it is an imperfect Tree and in its place a new and perfected Tree (that of your subjective universe with you as god) is nurtured.

 

[Sunstone]

From a Western Left Hand Path understanding:

Perennial philosophy is the understanding that all the world's Right Hand Path religions share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe. The way in which this is achieved is through what many Western Left Hand Path's recognize as a deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy otherwise known as the objective universe.

This is not the stance one takes as a Luciferian, the objective universe is seen as it plainly is, a non-conscious, unintelligent memetic mechanism composed of Time, Space & Matter. To absolve one's self into this is antithetic to the Western Left Hand Path goals of individuation and autotheism. Symbolically, this resistance to perennialism is the basis of such occult structures as the Tree of Daath and the ideals behind furthering the Fall of the Tree of Life because it is an imperfect Tree and in its place a new and perfected Tree (that of your subjective universe with you as god) is nurtured.

With respect, do you identify as a mystic?

 

[EtuMalku]

With respect, do you identify as a mystic?

Sure . . . by definition, aren't we all mystics?

 

[Sunstone]

Sure . . . by definition, aren't we all mystics?

How so?

 

[EtuMalku]

How so?

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/mysticism-overview.26556/
How NOT so?

 

[Windwalker]

Proposition: "Most folks who have never experienced 'god' tend to think of god in ways similar to most atheists who have never experienced 'god'."

Is there any truth to the proposition? Why or why not?

Hah! That's a damn interesting way to put this! Makes me think for a bit. If I understand correctly this is something I would agree with. Those who have ideas about God imagine this or that proposition to be true. They believe it, or they disbelieve it. But in both cases of belief and disbelief, it's about the same propositional notions. These propositional ideas are quite different from actual experience, the apprehension of the divine, as it were.

Once one has such an apprehension it moves beyond the domain of ideas. Now, thoughts, concepts and ideas are not propositions to imagine the absolute, but are rather a mad search to find appropriate words to describe the experience of the infinite. One is reaching from the mind up and out to something beyond its grasp. The other trying to find something in language to describe what is beyond it, reaching downward, rather than upward.

The atheist and theist who lack any firsthand experience of the transcendent are in the same boat. One arguing for an idea, the other against it. Meanwhile the mystic considers the question relatively moot, except for matters of discussion only.

 

[Windwalker]

From a Western Left Hand Path understanding:

Perennial philosophy is the understanding that all the world's Right Hand Path religions share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe. The way in which this is achieved is through what many Western Left Hand Path's recognize as a deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy otherwise known as the objective universe.

This is not the stance one takes as a Luciferian, the objective universe is seen as it plainly is, a non-conscious, unintelligent memetic mechanism composed of Time, Space & Matter. To absolve one's self into this is antithetic to the Western Left Hand Path goals of individuation and autotheism. Symbolically, this resistance to perennialism is the basis of such occult structures as the Tree of Daath and the ideals behind furthering the Fall of the Tree of Life because it is an imperfect Tree and in its place a new and perfected Tree (that of your subjective universe with you as god) is nurtured.

This too is dualistic.

 

[Sunstone]

Hah! That's a damn interesting way to put this! Makes me think for a bit. If I understand correctly this is something I would agree with. Those who have ideas about God imagine this or that proposition to be true. They believe it, or they disbelieve it. But in both cases of belief and disbelief, it's about the same propositional notions. These propositional ideas are quite different from actual experience, the apprehension of the divine, as it were.

Once one has such an apprehension it moves beyond the domain of ideas. Now, thoughts, concepts and ideas are not propositions to imagine the absolute, but are rather a mad search to find appropriate words to describe the experience of the infinite. One is reaching from the mind up and out to something beyond its grasp. The other trying to find something in language to describe what is beyond it, reaching downward, rather than upward.

The atheist and theist who lack any firsthand experience of the transcendent are in the same boat. One arguing for an idea, the other against it. Meanwhile the mystic considers the question relatively moot, except for matters of discussion only.

I quite agree up to a point: Some mystics, most likely nothing remotely close to a majority, both interpret their experiences and become adamantly certain of their interpretation.