Are There Any Religious Ascetics On These Forums?

[pearl]

Do you practice Centering Prayer? Are you a Mystic? How do you view Self-Flagellation?

Yes, I practice centering prayer. No, I am not a mystic. Traditionalists oppose it because of its Eastern form, adapted by the monk who found the copy of The Cloud of Unknowing in Spencer, for Christian prayer.

In the work the mystic explains that we cannot know God in his absolute reality through the human intellect: “The movement of the contemplative must be a movement of the whole man, he must precipitate himself, free and unfettered into the bosom of Reality.”
We pass through darkness and the cloud of unknowing and reach God through the heart and love, says the mystic.
The challenge in Centering Prayer practice is to become still; "Be still and know that I am God," Ps46

I have a negative view of self-flagellation.

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes, I practice centering prayer. No, I am not a mystic. Traditionalists oppose it because of its Eastern form, adapted by the monk who found the copy of The Cloud of Unknowing in Spencer, for Christian prayer.

In the work the mystic explains that we cannot know God in his absolute reality through the human intellect: “The movement of the contemplative must be a movement of the whole man, he must precipitate himself, free and unfettered into the bosom of Reality.”
We pass through darkness and the cloud of unknowing and reach God through the heart and love, says the mystic.
The challenge in Centering Prayer practice is to become still; "Be still and know that I am God," Ps46

I have a negative view of self-flagellation.

There is a Roman Catholic Branch that practices Mysticism, similar to the Centering Prayer that you are talking about.

What is Catholic Mysticism?

In our faith there are many different ways of learning about God. While we may be aware of the academic approach, there is generally less knowledge of the spiritual approach. This is formally known as Catholic mysticism.

What is Catholic Mysticism? - Diocese of Westminster Youth Ministry


I read a bit about The Cloud of Unknowing on wikipedia. Given that you are not a Mystic, why are you promoting the Mystical Way? Do you want to become a Mystic? Are you on a journey to become a Mystic?

 

[pearl]

I read a bit about The Cloud of Unknowing on wikipedia. Given that you are not a Mystic, why are you promoting the Mystical Way? Do you want to become a Mystic? Are you on a journey to become a Mystic?

Lectio Divina

Lectio Divina is the most traditional way of cultivating friendship with Christ. It is a way of listening to the texts of scripture as if we were in conversation with Christ and he were suggesting the topics of conversation. The daily encounter with Christ and reflection on his word leads beyond mere acquaintanceship to an attitude of friendship, trust and love. Conversation simplifies and gives way to communing, or as Gregory the Great (6th century), summarizing the Christian contemplative tradition, put it, "resting in God." This was the classical meaning of contemplative prayer for the first sixteen centuries.

Contemplative Prayer

Contemplative Prayer is the normal development of the grace of baptism and the regular practice of Lectio Divina. We may think of prayer as thoughts or feelings expressed in words. But this is only one expression. Contemplative Prayer is the opening of mind and heart - our whole being - to God, the Ultimate Mystery, beyond thoughts, words and emotions. We open our awareness to God whom we know by faith is within us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking, closer than choosing - closer than consciousness itself. Contemplative Prayer is a process of interior purification leading, if we consent, to divine union.

The Method of Centering Prayer

Centering Prayer is a method designed to facilitate the development of contemplative prayer by preparing our faculties to cooperate with this gift. It is an attempt to present the teaching of earlier time (e.g. The Cloud of Unknowing) in an updated form and to put a certain order and regularity into it. It is not meant to replace other kinds of prayer; it simply puts other kinds of prayer into a new and fuller perspective. During the time of prayer we consent to God's presence and action within. At other times our attention moves outward to discover God's presence everywhere.

“The Word of God is the first source of all Christian spirituality. It gives rise to a personal relationship with the living God and with his saving and sanctifying will. It is for this reason that from the very beginning of the Institutes of Consecrated Life, and in a special way in monasticism, what is called lectio divina has been held in the highest regard. By means of it, the Word of God is brought to bear on life, on which it projects the light of that wisdom which is a gift of the Spirit.

When I think of mysticism it pertains to people, as monks and the like. Many of these forms of prayer are of the Eastern style.

 

[Elihoenai]

Lectio Divina

Lectio Divina is the most traditional way of cultivating friendship with Christ. It is a way of listening to the texts of scripture as if we were in conversation with Christ and he were suggesting the topics of conversation. The daily encounter with Christ and reflection on his word leads beyond mere acquaintanceship to an attitude of friendship, trust and love. Conversation simplifies and gives way to communing, or as Gregory the Great (6th century), summarizing the Christian contemplative tradition, put it, "resting in God." This was the classical meaning of contemplative prayer for the first sixteen centuries.

Contemplative Prayer

Contemplative Prayer is the normal development of the grace of baptism and the regular practice of Lectio Divina. We may think of prayer as thoughts or feelings expressed in words. But this is only one expression. Contemplative Prayer is the opening of mind and heart - our whole being - to God, the Ultimate Mystery, beyond thoughts, words and emotions. We open our awareness to God whom we know by faith is within us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking, closer than choosing - closer than consciousness itself. Contemplative Prayer is a process of interior purification leading, if we consent, to divine union.

The Method of Centering Prayer

Centering Prayer is a method designed to facilitate the development of contemplative prayer by preparing our faculties to cooperate with this gift. It is an attempt to present the teaching of earlier time (e.g. The Cloud of Unknowing) in an updated form and to put a certain order and regularity into it. It is not meant to replace other kinds of prayer; it simply puts other kinds of prayer into a new and fuller perspective. During the time of prayer we consent to God's presence and action within. At other times our attention moves outward to discover God's presence everywhere.

“The Word of God is the first source of all Christian spirituality. It gives rise to a personal relationship with the living God and with his saving and sanctifying will. It is for this reason that from the very beginning of the Institutes of Consecrated Life, and in a special way in monasticism, what is called lectio divina has been held in the highest regard. By means of it, the Word of God is brought to bear on life, on which it projects the light of that wisdom which is a gift of the Spirit.

When I think of mysticism it pertains to people, as monks and the like. Many of these forms of prayer are of the Eastern style.

I have heard of Lectio Divina. What has Centering Prayer and Lectio Divina to do with Asceticism? @pearl, Do you practice Self-Denial?


Thomas Keating

Thomas Keating, O.C.S.O. (March 7, 1923 – October 25, 2018) was an American Catholic monk and priest of the Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance (also known as Trappists). Keating was known as one of the principal developers of Centering Prayer, a contemporary method of contemplative prayer that emerged from St. Joseph's Abbey, Spencer, Massachusetts.

Thomas Keating - Wikipedia

 

[pearl]

Thomas Keating, O.C.S.O. (March 7, 1923 – October 25, 2018) was an American Catholic monk and priest of the Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance (also known as Trappists). Keating was known as one of the principal developers of Centering Prayer, a contemporary method of contemplative prayer that emerged from St. Joseph's Abbey, Spencer, Massachusetts.

Yes, the Abbey is about 45 min from my house, am very familiar with it, as it was a priest from the Abbey who first introduced the concept of centering prayer. Self denial may be practiced anytime through fasting, which I do not do often, most during Holy Week and Lent. It took some time before Centering Prayer was accepted because of its Eastern flavor.

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes, the Abbey is about 45 min from my house, am very familiar with it, as it was a priest from the Abbey who first introduced the concept of centering prayer. Self denial may be practiced anytime through fasting, which I do not do often, most during Holy Week and Lent. It took some time before Centering Prayer was accepted because of its Eastern flavor.

Therefore, are you saying that you do not really practice Self-Denial? What use is Prayer without Self-Denial? How can a person change without Denying what they are? Do you recognise that Prayer without Self-Denial is Pie in the Sky?

Do you Self-Deny yourself any of the following?

1) Sex
2) Having children
3) Marriage
4) Eating meat
5) Drinking Alcohol
6) Smoking Cigarettes or Cigars
7) Going to Parties or Night clubs
8) Watching TV
9) Listening to music
10) Taking Drugs or Herbs

Are you a believer in Ascetism?

 

[Trailblazer]

Therefore, are you saying that you do not really practice Self-Denial?

How many Christians do you think practice self-denial? I would hazard a guess there are very few.
Yet Jesus said...

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[Elihoenai]

How many Christians do you think practice self-denial? I would hazard a guess there are very few.
Yet Jesus said...

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jude 3-4

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Thank you for supporting the True Christian Faith.

Amen! Very few Christians practice Self-Denial. That's why, as I said before. really the Christian Religion is Left-Hand Path Religion.

Without continued totally committed Self-Punishment and Self-Denial there is no Real Transformation.


Amen - what does it mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

Without continued totally committed Self-Punishment and Self-Denial there is no Real Transformation.

I do not really see a reason for self-punishment but I see a need for self denial, if one desires to be close to God and follow in His way, as Jesus said in Matthew 16:24-26. My beliefs are the same.

“Say: Deliver your souls, O people, from the bondage of self, and purify them from all attachment to anything besides Me. Remembrance of Me cleanseth all things from defilement, could ye but perceive it. Say: Were all created things to be entirely divested of the veil of worldly vanity and desire, the Hand of God would in this Day clothe them, one and all, with the robe “He doeth whatsoever He willeth in the kingdom of creation,” that thereby the sign of His sovereignty might be manifested in all things. Exalted then be He, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Almighty, the Supreme Protector, the All-Glorious, the Most Powerful.” Gleanings, pp. 294-295

Can you explain what you believe is achieved by self-punishment?

Meanwhile, related to self-denial, some of my favorite verses are as follows:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

What do these verses mean to you? To me they mean that we should not be attached to worldly things, and this includes material things as well as things of the flesh. Those who have such attachments will lose eternal life because those attachments intervene between a person and and service to God.

I do not think that most Christians understand what these verses mean; either that or they know and choose not to take them seriously, since what I see is attachment to the worldly things and things of the flesh by most people. I do not see self-denial or detachment from the world yet this is vital for anyone who wants to be close to God and follow Him. My beliefs are the same.

"Disencumber yourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof. Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you from entering the straight and glorious Path.” Gleanings, p. 276

“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue.” Gleanings, p.279

“Ere long the world and all that is therein shall be as a thing forgotten, and all honor shall belong to the loved ones of thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings, p. 306

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.”
Gleanings, pp. 328-329

 

[Elihoenai]

I do not really see a reason for self-punishment but I see a need for self denial, if one desires to be close to God and follow in His way, as Jesus said in Matthew 16:24-26. My beliefs are the same.

“Say: Deliver your souls, O people, from the bondage of self, and purify them from all attachment to anything besides Me. Remembrance of Me cleanseth all things from defilement, could ye but perceive it. Say: Were all created things to be entirely divested of the veil of worldly vanity and desire, the Hand of God would in this Day clothe them, one and all, with the robe “He doeth whatsoever He willeth in the kingdom of creation,” that thereby the sign of His sovereignty might be manifested in all things. Exalted then be He, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Almighty, the Supreme Protector, the All-Glorious, the Most Powerful.” Gleanings, pp. 294-295

Can you explain what you believe is achieved by self-punishment?

Colossians 1:24

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:


Without the totally committed practice of Self-Punishment there is no Real Self-Denial. The Self-Punishment is to make amends to Elohim/God for past Sins.

I see you religion is Baháʼí. Are you a serious and committed practitioner of this Faith? Do members of Baháʼí view Yeshua/Jesus as the Son of Elohim/God or a Messenger?

Meanwhile, related to self-denial, some of my favorite verses are as follows:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

What do these verses mean to you? To me they mean that we should not be attached to worldly things, and this includes material things as well as things of the flesh. Those who have such attachments will lose eternal life because those attachments intervene between a person and and service to God.

I do not think that most Christians understand what these verses mean; either that or they know and choose not to take them seriously, since what I see is attachment to the worldly things and things of the flesh by most people. I do not see self-denial or detachment from the world yet this is vital for anyone who wants to be close to God and follow Him. My beliefs are the same.

"Disencumber yourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof. Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you from entering the straight and glorious Path.” Gleanings, p. 276

“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue.” Gleanings, p.279

“Ere long the world and all that is therein shall be as a thing forgotten, and all honor shall belong to the loved ones of thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings, p. 306

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.”
Gleanings, pp. 328-329

Matthew 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


The 2.2 Billions of Christians in Christendom have chosen Knowingly or Unknowingly to walk the the Broad Way that leadeth to Destruction because they get to keep their Sins and the things of this World.

There are a few True Christians that walk the Narrow Way. Yet the Broad Way Christians are in the Truth for the Earthly/Worldly Church.

 

[Trailblazer]

Colossians 1:24
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Without the totally committed practice of Self-Punishment there is no Real Self-Denial. The Self-Punishment is to make amends to Elohim/God for past Sins.

I thought that, according to Christian belief, Jesus already paid for our past Sins?
I do not believe in 'deliberately' punishing ourselves because I believe that having to endure this earthly life is enough punishment in itself.

However, I believe that truly serious believers are willing to make sacrifices and suffer for the sake of God, having faith that there is much more than this earthly life. I am one of those people

"Those who declare a wish to suffer much for Christ’s sake must prove their sincerity; those who proclaim their longing to make great sacrifices can only prove their truth by their deeds. Job proved the fidelity of his love for God by being faithful through his great adversity, as well as during the prosperity of his life. The apostles of Christ who steadfastly bore all their trials and sufferings—did they not prove their faithfulness? Was not their endurance the best proof?

These griefs are now ended.

Caiaphas lived a comfortable and happy life while Peter’s life was full of sorrow and trial; which of these two is the more enviable? Assuredly we should choose the present state of Peter, for he possesses immortal life whilst Caiaphas has won eternal shame. The trials of Peter tested his fidelity."
Paris Talks, p. 50

I see you religion is Baháʼí. Are you a serious and committed practitioner of this Faith? Do members of Baháʼí view Yeshua/Jesus as the Son of Elohim/God or a Messenger?

I am serious about my Faith but I practice in my own way. Just as Christians are a varied group, so are Baha'is. We all have our own way of looking at things. I am not an ascetic but I lean towards self-denial and austerity. I do not seek material things and physical pleasures.

Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God because He brought a message from God, but we also believe He was the Son of God, although not in a biological sense because God is Spirit so He has no offspring. However we believe in the Virgin Birth and that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, which was a miracle.

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 109

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The 2.2 Billions of Christians in Christendom have chosen Knowingly or Unknowingly to walk the the Broad Way that leadeth to Destruction because they get to keep their Sins and the things of this World.

There are a few True Christians that walk the Narrow Way. Yet the Broad Way Christians are in the Truth for the Earthly/Worldly Church.

I believe that Bible verses can have many meanings, so Matthew 7:13-14 can be interpreted to mean various things. That is an interesting interpretation you have and I believe it has validity. All you have to do is look at how most people live in order to see this. There are a few True Christians who live lives of self-sacrifice and self-denial. Most Christians believe they can have their cake and eat it to, meaning that because Jesus died for them they can live a life of worldliness and still gain eternal life, but it is obvious that is not what Jesus taught, it is what the Church taught. What a sorry shame.

 

[Elihoenai]

I thought that, according to Christian belief, Jesus already paid for our past Sins?

Matthew 16:24

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Christians teach this as "Get out of jail free card". It means that they don't have to do anything to be Saved because Yeshua/Jesus has already done it all. This ensures no Real Transformation. The Real Yeshua/Jesus instructed that you must follow him entirely to be Saved.

I do not believe in 'deliberately' punishing ourselves because I believe that having to endure this earthly life is enough punishment in itself.

Galatians 6:17

17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

True Christians practice the same Self-Punishment of Jesus Christ/Yeshua Messiah.

However, I believe that truly serious believers are willing to make sacrifices and suffer for the sake of God, having faith that there is much more than this earthly life. I am one of those people

"Those who declare a wish to suffer much for Christ’s sake must prove their sincerity; those who proclaim their longing to make great sacrifices can only prove their truth by their deeds. Job proved the fidelity of his love for God by being faithful through his great adversity, as well as during the prosperity of his life. The apostles of Christ who steadfastly bore all their trials and sufferings—did they not prove their faithfulness? Was not their endurance the best proof?

These griefs are now ended.

Caiaphas lived a comfortable and happy life while Peter’s life was full of sorrow and trial; which of these two is the more enviable? Assuredly we should choose the present state of Peter, for he possesses immortal life whilst Caiaphas has won eternal shame. The trials of Peter tested his fidelity."
Paris Talks, p. 50

John 16:21

21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Revelation 3:21

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Exactly, you have to prove yourself Worthy to Elohim/God by your acts. You must strive to be Overcomer through Sufferings. On the other hand, the Christian teaches there is nothing you can do to prove yourself and in this way Disabling True Activity among its members.

Yeshua/Jesus likened the Transformation to a Woman giving Birth.

I am serious about my Faith but I practice in my own way. Just as Christians are a varied group, so are Baha'is. We all have our own way of looking at things. I am not an ascetic but I lean towards self-denial and austerity. I do not seek material things and physical pleasures.

Do you Fast on a regular basis? If yes, is it a Dry Fast and for how many days?

Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God because He brought a message from God, but we also believe He was the Son of God, although not in a biological sense because God is Spirit so He has no offspring. However we believe in the Virgin Birth and that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, which was a miracle.

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 109

Don't you believe that Elohim/God is creator of Heaven and Earth and all the things in them? If yes to the latter, do you agree that this means that all Humans and Animals are his Offspring?

I believe that Bible verses can have many meanings, so Matthew 7:13-14 can be interpreted to mean various things. That is an interesting interpretation you have and I believe it has validity. All you have to do is look at how most people live in order to see this. There are a few True Christians who live lives of self-sacrifice and self-denial. Most Christians believe they can have their cake and eat it to, meaning that because Jesus died for them they can live a life of worldliness and still gain eternal life, but it is obvious that is not what Jesus taught, it is what the Church taught. What a sorry shame.

Yes, there are many different ways to interpret the Scriptures/Bible. When you attend any Christian Church congregation you will find out they all have their own Interpretations. Therefore, there are different interpretations among different Denominations and within the Denominations. The Scriptures/Bible teaches Esoteric and Exoteric Knowledge.

The Christians in Christendom are content with the Sacraments of Baptism and The Eucharist and Confession to a Priest. In that way they get to keep their Sins and Worldly Life, while giving the appearance of being Religious.

 

[Trailblazer]

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Christians teach this as "Get out of jail free card". It means that they don't have to do anything to be Saved because Yeshua/Jesus has already done it all. This ensures no Real Transformation. The Real Yeshua/Jesus instructed that you must follow him entirely to be Saved.

I fully agree.

Galatians 6:17

17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

True Christians practice the same Self-Punishment of Jesus Christ/Yeshua Messiah.

How did Jesus punish Himself, besides going to the cross?

Do you know any such Christians?

John 16:21
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Exactly, you have to prove yourself Worthy to Elohim/God by your acts. You must strive to be Overcomer through Sufferings. On the other hand, the Christian teaches there is nothing you can do to prove yourself and in this way Disabling True Activity among its members.

Yeshua/Jesus likened the Transformation to a Woman giving Birth.

I agree that we have to prove yourself Worthy to Elohim/God by our acts and we must strive to be Overcomer through Sufferings.

“Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

Do you Fast on a regular basis? If yes, is it a Dry Fast and for how many days?

The Baha’is have a Nineteen-Day Fast which is observed annually. It is the complete abstention from food and drink from sunrise till sundown. Observing the fast is an individual obligation, and is binding on all Baháʼís who have reached the age 15 until the age of 70.

Nineteen-Day Fast - Wikipedia

Fasting | Devotion | The Life of the Spirit | What Bahá’ís Believe

Don't you believe that Elohim/God is creator of Heaven and Earth and all the things in them? If yes to the latter, do you agree that this means that all Humans and Animals are his Offspring?

Not God’s offspring, God’s Creation.

Yes, there are many different ways to interpret the Scriptures/Bible. When you attend any Christian Church congregation you will find out they all have their own Interpretations. Therefore, there are different interpretations among different Denominations and within the Denominations. The Scriptures/Bible teaches Esoteric and Exoteric Knowledge.

The Christians in Christendom are content with the Sacraments of Baptism and The Eucharist and Confession to a Priest. In that way they get to keep their Sins and Worldly Life, while giving the appearance of being Religious.

Keeping their Sins and Worldly Life, while giving the appearance of being Religious goes against everything Jesus taught about how we are to live, but I don’t need to tell you that. It is so sad that the masses of Christians follow false Christian doctrines instead of the teachings of Jesus. I am glad to have met at least one Christian who realizes that. It is a rarity.

 

[Elihoenai]

How did Jesus punish Himself, besides going to the cross?

Do you know any such Christians?

The Cross that Yeshua/Jesus practices is where he Punishes himself.

The Punishment of the Cross is practiced by a small number of Powerful Elite Ultra Conservative members of the Universal Roman Catholic Church.

These video examples represent Opus Dei and Society of Jesus (Jesuit) (second video for mature adults only):

The Da Vinci Code (2/8) Movie CLIP - Silas (2006) HD

Ethan Hawke "First Reformed"

I agree that we have to prove yourself Worthy to Elohim/God by our acts and we must strive to be Overcomer through Sufferings.

“Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

Amen! The Baháʼí Faith appears to be closer to True Christian Doctrine than that practiced by the Masses in Mainstream Christianity.

The Baha’is have a Nineteen-Day Fast which is observed annually. It is the complete abstention from food and drink from sunrise till sundown. Observing the fast is an individual obligation, and is binding on all Baháʼís who have reached the age 15 until the age of 70.

Nineteen-Day Fast - Wikipedia

Fasting | Devotion | The Life of the Spirit | What Bahá’ís Believe

Joel 2:12-13

12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

The info in the second link states that fasting should not be viewed as Asceticism or Penance. Do you have the same perspective on Fasting? Do you believe in Asceticism? Do you have Sex during the Nineteen-Day Fast? Do you Fast any time outside of the Nineteen-Day Fast?

That perspective on Fasting is contrary to Christian. In True Christianity Fasting is Asceticism and Repentance/Penance to draw close to Elohim/God. Fasting is done to Repent of the Evil/Sin.

Not God’s offspring, God’s Creation.

Acts 17:28-29

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

I'm in total agreement with Paul, a Servant of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, when he said that we are all the Offspring of Elohim/God. Everything that exists is Elohim's/God's Body. We differ here also.

Keeping their Sins and Worldly Life, while giving the appearance of being Religious goes against everything Jesus taught about how we are to live, but I don’t need to tell you that. It is so sad that the masses of Christians follow false Christian doctrines instead of the teachings of Jesus. I am glad to have met at least one Christian who realizes that. It is a rarity.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God. Those Worldly Christians keeping their Sins are made by Elohim/God and are members of the Earthly Universal Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Cross that Yeshua/Jesus practices is where he Punishes himself.

The Punishment of the Cross is practiced by a small number of Powerful Elite Ultra Conservative members of the Universal Roman Catholic Church.

These video examples represent Opus Dei and Society of Jesus (Jesuit) (second video for mature adults only):

The Da Vinci Code (2/8) Movie CLIP - Silas (2006) HD

Ethan Hawke "First Reformed"

I do not believe in self-inflicted punishment. As I said before, I think that having to live through this earthly life with all its suffering is punishment enough.

Amen! The Baháʼí Faith appears to be closer to True Christian Doctrine than that practiced by the Masses in Mainstream Christianity.

I think it is close to the True Christian Doctrine, as we take our scriptures seriously and try to follow them and deny self.

40: O MY SERVANT! Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

The info in the second link states that fasting should not be viewed as Asceticism or Penance. Do you have the same perspective on Fasting? Do you believe in Asceticism? Do you have Sex during the Nineteen-Day Fast? Do you Fast any time outside of the Nineteen-Day Fast?

No, I do not believe that Fasting should be viewed as Asceticism or Penance.
Fasting, said ‘Abdu’l-Bahá “is the cause of awakening man. The heart becomes tender and the spirituality of man increases. This is produced by the fact that man’s thoughts will be confined to the commemoration of God, and through this awakening and stimulation surely ideal advancements follow”.[1]

It is not against Baha'i Law to have sex during the Fast. I believe that having sex during the period of fasting defeats its purpose; although other Baha'is might disagree, it is rather obvious to me since the sex act is the polar opposite of self denial.

No, Baha'is don't have any designated times of Fasting other than the 19-Day Fast in March.

That perspective on Fasting is contrary to Christian. In True Christianity Fasting is Asceticism and Repentance/Penance to draw close to Elohim/God. Fasting is done to Repent of the Evil/Sin.

I do not believe that Repentance/Penance is necessary to draw close to Elohim/God.
However, there are many Baha'i Prayers for asking for forgiveness.

Forgiveness • Bahá’í Prayers
If you click on the beginning of the prayer on the left, you will see the full prayer on the right.
If you read those prayers you will get an idea of what we believe about forgiveness and sin. I think we Baha'is believe the same as True Christianity.

I'm in total agreement with Paul, a Servant of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, when he said that we are all the Offspring of Elohim/God. Everything that exists is Elohim's/God's Body. We differ here also.

What I meant is that we are not the biological offspring of God, but I believe we are God's children in the sense that God created us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God.

I believe in human fee will but I also believe that everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God, since nothing happens that God does not allow to happen.

Those Worldly Christians keeping their Sins are made by Elohim/God and are members of the Earthly Universal Roman Catholic Church.

So are you saying that only Catholics are worldly? What about Protestants? I do not see many of them sacrificing their selfish desires for God.

 

[Elihoenai]

I do not believe in self-inflicted punishment. As I said before, I think that having to live through this earthly life with all its suffering is punishment enough.

What punishment are you suffering through this Earthly Life? Are you not doing away with Earthly Things?

I think it is close to the True Christian Doctrine, as we take our scriptures seriously and try to follow them and deny self.

40: O MY SERVANT! Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

Yes, Self-Denial is part the True Christian Doctrine. True Christians go further and inflict zealously Self-Punishment ensuring True Self-Denial. Self-Denial without Punishment is not real Self-Denial.

No, I do not believe that Fasting should be viewed as Asceticism or Penance.
Fasting, said ‘Abdu’l-Bahá “is the cause of awakening man. The heart becomes tender and the spirituality of man increases. This is produced by the fact that man’s thoughts will be confined to the commemoration of God, and through this awakening and stimulation surely ideal advancements follow”.[1]

It is not against Baha'i Law to have sex during the Fast. I believe that having sex during the period of fasting defeats its purpose; although other Baha'is might disagree, it is rather obvious to me since the sex act is the polar opposite of self denial.

No, Baha'is don't have any designated times of Fasting other than the 19-Day Fast in March.

Isaiah 59:2

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.


Ascetism is abstinence from Sensual Pleasures and that means Fasting is Asceticism. Abstaining from Sensual Pleasures means Abstaining from Sins. Abstaining from Sins is Repentance/Penance and Sins is what separates from Elohim/God.

Therefore, True Christian Doctrine is much more strict than Baha'i Law. The Ultra Conservative are Celibate like Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, John the Baptist and Paul the Apostle. The committed Christian Fasts twice a Week every week outside periods of Lent.

I do not believe that Repentance/Penance is necessary to draw close to Elohim/God.
However, there are many Baha'i Prayers for asking for forgiveness.

Forgiveness • Bahá’í Prayers
If you click on the beginning of the prayer on the left, you will see the full prayer on the right.
If you read those prayers you will get an idea of what we believe about forgiveness and sin. I think we Baha'is believe the same as True Christianity.

Without Repentance/Penance you will never draw close to Elohim/God. Repentance/Penance is turning away from Sin and Sin separates from Elohim/God. Everybody believes their Christianity is the True Christianity. From an Ultra Conservative perspective Baha's is not strict enough.

What I meant is that we are not the biological offspring of God, but I believe we are God's children in the sense that God created us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

I'm saying that Elohim/God is Biological. Elohim/God has an Earthly Body, Soul Body and Spirit Body.

I believe in human fee will but I also believe that everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God, since nothing happens that God does not allow to happen.

Do humans that are Enslaved to Sin have Free Will? Amen to everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God.

So are you saying that only Catholics are worldly? What about Protestants? I do not see many of them sacrificing their selfish desires for God.

No, I'm saying that all Protestants are actually Roman Catholics and that they are the same Worldly. The Elect Elite Ultra Conservative Roman Catholic members are different from the Masses that they rule over. The Elect have demonstrated much greater Commitment to the Christian Faith.

 

[KWED]

I do not believe in self-inflicted punishment. As I said before, I think that having to live through this earthly life with all its suffering is punishment enough.

I think it is close to the True Christian Doctrine, as we take our scriptures seriously and try to follow them and deny self.

40: O MY SERVANT! Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

No, I do not believe that Fasting should be viewed as Asceticism or Penance.
Fasting, said ‘Abdu’l-Bahá “is the cause of awakening man. The heart becomes tender and the spirituality of man increases. This is produced by the fact that man’s thoughts will be confined to the commemoration of God, and through this awakening and stimulation surely ideal advancements follow”.[1]

It is not against Baha'i Law to have sex during the Fast. I believe that having sex during the period of fasting defeats its purpose; although other Baha'is might disagree, it is rather obvious to me since the sex act is the polar opposite of self denial.

No, Baha'is don't have any designated times of Fasting other than the 19-Day Fast in March.

I do not believe that Repentance/Penance is necessary to draw close to Elohim/God.
However, there are many Baha'i Prayers for asking for forgiveness.

Forgiveness • Bahá’í Prayers
If you click on the beginning of the prayer on the left, you will see the full prayer on the right.
If you read those prayers you will get an idea of what we believe about forgiveness and sin. I think we Baha'is believe the same as True Christianity.

What I meant is that we are not the biological offspring of God, but I believe we are God's children in the sense that God created us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

I believe in human fee will but I also believe that everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God, since nothing happens that God does not allow to happen.

So are you saying that only Catholics are worldly? What about Protestants? I do not see many of them sacrificing their selfish desires for God.

Why are these quotes labelled as mine?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why are these quotes labelled as mine?

So sorry. I don't know how that got on this thread.

 

[Elihoenai]

Job 19:26

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:


Elohim/God wants us to Climb the ladder to Heaven and Spirit. This is done through Painstaking Ascetism.

Ladder to Heaven: Flesh->Soul->Spirit

Elohim/God is Flesh, Soul and Spirit.

Only 1000 people in a Billion make a Totally Committed attempt to attain the Soul. The other 8 Billions are satisfied with the Flesh. Christians call what is actually Flesh Spirit deluding themselves that they are walking in the Spirit.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism are actually Left-Hand Path Religions. These are Religions of Elohim/God Flesh.

 

[Trailblazer]

What punishment are you suffering through this Earthly Life? Are you not doing away with Earthly Things?

I have done away with any Earthly Things that I do not need to live, but that is not what has caused my suffering. I have suffered all my life through no fault of my own. I have only had brief respites here and there.

Yes, Self-Denial is part the True Christian Doctrine. True Christians go further and inflict zealously Self-Punishment ensuring True Self-Denial. Self-Denial without Punishment is not real Self-Denial.

I still do not see the need for punishment, but maybe that is because my whole life has been suffering so i don't need any additional punishment and I don't believe a just and loving God would ever want to see me inflict it on myself.

I cannot speak for other people but if they had to deny their sexual desires then that would be punishment enough, since that is what most people value. We both know that is not going to happen, I am just speaking hypothetically.

Isaiah 59:2
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Ascetism is abstinence from Sensual Pleasures and that means Fasting is Asceticism. Abstaining from Sensual Pleasures means Abstaining from Sins. Abstaining from Sins is Repentance/Penance and Sins is what separates from Elohim/God.

Let's put our cards on the table. Asceticism is Abstaining from Sensual Pleasures which means means Abstaining from Sex. People cannot abstain form food and water, they have to eat and drink, but they do not have to have sex unless they are trying to have a child.

Therefore, True Christian Doctrine is much more strict than Baha'i Law. The Ultra Conservative are Celibate like Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, John the Baptist and Paul the Apostle. The committed Christian Fasts twice a Week every week outside periods of Lent.

Oh, you don't think the Baha'i Law is strict enough. The Baha'i Law prohibits sex outside or marriage. Sex is allowed in marriage but that does not mean married people have to have sex, not unless they are trying to have children. How many Christians abide by such a Law?

Baha'u'llah, the Prophet Founder of the Baha'i Faith, who was an exile and prisoner for 40 years, wrote the following in His own pen:

“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.

When the time set for this Revelation was fulfilled, and He Who is the Day Star of the world appeared in ‘Iráq, He bade His followers observe that which would sanctify them from all earthly defilements. Some preferred to follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, while others walked in the way of righteousness and truth, and were rightly guided.

Say: He is not to be numbered with the people of Bahá who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity…. And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118

Without Repentance/Penance you will never draw close to Elohim/God. Repentance/Penance is turning away from Sin and Sin separates from Elohim/God. Everybody believes their Christianity is the True Christianity. From an Ultra Conservative perspective Baha's is not strict enough.

Baha'is also believe that sin separates man from God. We ask for God's forgiveness i prayer.

Regarding sin, below are some excerpts from one of the obligatory prayers. The entire prayer can be read here: Long Obligatory Prayer

O God, my God! My back is bowed by the burden of my sins, and my heedlessness hath destroyed me. Whenever I ponder my evil doings and Thy benevolence, my heart melteth within me, and my blood boileth in my veins.

By Thy might! My trespasses have kept me back from drawing nigh unto Thee; and my sins have held me far from the court of Thy holiness. Thy love, O my Lord, hath enriched me, and separation from Thee hath destroyed me, and remoteness from Thee hath consumed me.

What would be stricter than the Baha'i Laws? Abstinence from sex cannot be practiced by everyone because then there would be no children and families, and families are the bedrock of society.

I'm saying that Elohim/God is Biological. Elohim/God has an Earthly Body, Soul Body and Spirit Body.

I do not believe that God has an Earthly Body. I believe that God is spirit, as the Bible says.

Do humans that are Enslaved to Sin have Free Will? Amen to everything that happens is the Will of Elohim/God.

Humans that are Enslaved to Sin have Free Will, they simply use their free will to choose to be Enslaved to Sin instead of choosing to be Servants of God.

No, I'm saying that all Protestants are actually Roman Catholics and that they are the same Worldly. The Elect Elite Ultra Conservative Roman Catholic members are different from the Masses that they rule over. The Elect have demonstrated much greater Commitment to the Christian Faith.

That sounds about right. I cannot disagree with that.