demosthenesfire
New Member
Many theists advocate a set of moral "laws" universal to all humans. Do you think there is a universal code? If you do, what specific laws do you think this code consists of?
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Are There Universal Morals?
- Thread starter demosthenesfire
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ladylazarus
Member
Nope.
MdmSzdWhtGuy
Well-Known Member
I had this very discussion with a friend of mine I commuted to Law School with. He was not a beleiver, but did advocate that there certainly was right and wrong behaviors. I asked him what he thought these were since he did not beleive there was any lawgiver to lay them out for us. His reply, I thought was a very strong step toward a universal set of moral laws.
"You do whatever you want to do, unless and until your behavior harms another human"
Think about that one for a minute. Covers a good portion of the 10 commandments. Don't murder - cause that causes harm to the person killed, and anyone who liked that person, or needed that person for support. Don't steal - again, harms the person you steal from. Don't commit adultery - hurts the feelings of the betrayed spouse. Don't lie (bear false witness) - because that is harmful for those whom you have deceived.
I think that pretty much anyone on Earth should be able to agree on the very simple moral code laid out in that discussion I had 8 or 9 years ago on a long car commute. We kicked it around an hour or so, and were never able to improve on his simple statement.
B.
"You do whatever you want to do, unless and until your behavior harms another human"
Think about that one for a minute. Covers a good portion of the 10 commandments. Don't murder - cause that causes harm to the person killed, and anyone who liked that person, or needed that person for support. Don't steal - again, harms the person you steal from. Don't commit adultery - hurts the feelings of the betrayed spouse. Don't lie (bear false witness) - because that is harmful for those whom you have deceived.
I think that pretty much anyone on Earth should be able to agree on the very simple moral code laid out in that discussion I had 8 or 9 years ago on a long car commute. We kicked it around an hour or so, and were never able to improve on his simple statement.
B.
Aqualung
Tasty
Good observation, MdmSzdWhtGuy. I would certainly agree with your friend's statement, but I would stress that in some cultures people are raised to be a little less sensitive to certain issues. For example, in this culture we might get angry when people cheat on us, but in other places people might have numerous mistresses.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
But are those morals inherent in us as human beings? Or are they a result of having to live together and get along as peacefully as possible?
Perhaps it's the same thing. We've discussed things like mirror neurons in the past, noting how hey serve as a biological basis for empathy.Maize said:
We are a pattern matching, social species in many ways wired to "live together and get along as peacefully as possible". We are also wired for survival, for xenophobia, for our role in sexual reproduction, etc. Perhaps the biological basis of morality really is a case of 'being true to our higher selves'.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Interesting. Thank you.Jayhawker Soule said:
I voted "No Moral codes"; there weren't enough options, as far as I was concerned.
The reason I voted no is that different cultures have different 'Takes' on morality. Anti-murder, anti-theft, anti-incest, anti-lies, anti-suicides are all seen differently by people of different nations.
Anti - incest
Guyana
Rape, particularly of girls and young women, is a serious problem but infrequently reported or prosecuted. Health professionals and NGO's also reported a high incidence of incest. Lawyers say that while more victims are reporting these crimes to the authorities, there still is a social stigma applied to the victim for doing so. An estimated 5 percent of cases reported to H&S were rape cases; the vast majority of these--80 percent--were reported by victims age 17 and under.
Anti-lies
Do we tell white lies ? - they really are lies.
Anti-suicide (Not holland, for one)
Anti-murder and anti-theft, in Central African countries, are accepted as normality.
The reason I voted no is that different cultures have different 'Takes' on morality. Anti-murder, anti-theft, anti-incest, anti-lies, anti-suicides are all seen differently by people of different nations.
Anti - incest
Guyana
Rape, particularly of girls and young women, is a serious problem but infrequently reported or prosecuted. Health professionals and NGO's also reported a high incidence of incest. Lawyers say that while more victims are reporting these crimes to the authorities, there still is a social stigma applied to the victim for doing so. An estimated 5 percent of cases reported to H&S were rape cases; the vast majority of these--80 percent--were reported by victims age 17 and under.
Anti-lies
Do we tell white lies ? - they really are lies.
Anti-suicide (Not holland, for one)
Anti-murder and anti-theft, in Central African countries, are accepted as normality.
MdmSzdWhtGuy
Well-Known Member
Well, obviously cultural differences are going to exist. But the basic premise is the same. The problem with Robin's premise is that in many societies, especially more primitive ones, they think that their own social group is the only one that counts, and as a result, while they would agree that it makes sense not to harm those inside thier social group, those outside of it, are considered somehow as less than humans.Aqualung said:
For instance, without exception, every American Indian tribe, of which I am personally aware uses as their native tongue's name for their own particular tribe their word for Human. For instance the Cherokee's call themselves The Humans, in their language, and so forth and so on for the other tribes.
When you have artificial ways of dividing humans, such as through skin color, language, cultural differences, etc. . . it becomes easy for people to treat others as less than themselves because they don't share (insert characteristic of your choice here). A fundamentalist Muslim listening to bin Laden's fatwa has no problem killing an Infidel/American/Westerner wherever he may find him. Southern slave owners had no problem enslaving West Africans and could find Bible verses to support their position.
If we all agree that we are all humans and deserve to be treated as such, then Robin's ideal works. It is when you have people out there who refuse to treat others as equal to themselves that you develop problems. This is one of the reasons that myself and many others have put forth the proposition that religion in general is a harmful institution, because it creates an "Us" and "Them" mentality.
Who do you pray to? Baal. Hmm, too bad, I pray to Yahwew, I gotta kill you.
Who do you pray to? Yawhew. Hmm, too bad, I pray to Baal, I gotta kill you.
What do you call your God? Jesus. Hmm, there is no God but Allah, you gotta die.
And the list could go on for pages, substituting any of the hundreds of different gods people have prayed to over the centuries.
It is only when you take these supernatural imaginary friends out the of the equation, and realize that we are all people, that we all feel pain, joy, cold, hunger, laughter, sorrow the same way, that you can break down the divides that allow someone to treat another as being less than themselves.
The universal moral law I passed along in my initial post on this thread works . . . but only if we acknowledge that each of us, and everyone around us, has equal rights to a chance to live in his or her own way. It will not work if we think we are better than those around us, or that those around us are doomed to some everlasting punishment for not beleiving in the diety of OUR choice.
"Do what you want, up until you harm another human"
Try that on for a while, apply it to every action and thought that you have, and see if you don't find yourself living in a manner more similar to Jesus, Ghandi, The Buddha, and the like.
B.
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
We do believe that man is wired and can build upon it through human reason. It's ultimate source of course is something that is subject to interpretation and requires faith. I think what Jay provided is something I would lean to accept and agree with. But can't fully picture how everything comes together to how we see things now.
~Victor
~Victor
With no intent to derail the topic, perhaps one of the reasons that it is so hard to see how things "come together" is because they come together in an haphazard fashion. This is just another way to say that we are in many ways an exemple of bricolage - a term suggested by Dr. Ursula Goodenough - and not intelligent design.Victor said:
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
That's kinda what I meant by "can build upon it through human reason". Perhaps the issue I struggle with is in seeing how such random and unbound [by this I mean they don't deal with absolutes and move toward comfort or whatever strikes them fancy] beings were able to function with no mechanism that goes beyond survival and peace. I see no end in this.Jayhawker Soule said:
~Victor
I am proud to say that I voted for Anti-Murder, Anti-Theft, Anti-Lies, Anti-Incest, and Anti-Suicide. I believe that if there are not moral laws then humanity is doomed to live, die and end. If there are not moral laws then life itself is pointless and we all should kill everyone, and commit suicide, If there were no moral values to base action off of, life itself would be worthless.Just a thought
lunamoth
Will to love
I think there is a universal moral but it's better stated in a positive sense, rather than in the "anti" statements given. I would say that the universal moral is love (God and each other). (I know, it sounds trite and dweeby, but it is something I have contemplated on a lot. )
peace,
lunamoth
)peace,
lunamoth
Ody
Well-Known Member
Yes as a theist i do believe in natural law that all men and women know.. i already showed my definition of natural law before..
I think I agree with the stoics on it to.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law They don't give a good definition really on overall natural law but its the best im willing to post, sorry just hard to think when its 3 o clock in the morning...
I think I agree with the stoics on it to.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law They don't give a good definition really on overall natural law but its the best im willing to post, sorry just hard to think when its 3 o clock in the morning...
ladylazarus
Member
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
There is nothing backing up the assertion that harming another human is wrong. Moral codes are a natural product of the evolution of human society, but they have no inherent truth to them.
Also, how do you decide if your behavior is harming another human? Every action is going to cause harm to some and help to some, in ways we can't even imagine.