Are transgender/transsexual people accepted in your religion?

[dawny0826]

How?

You would tell a schizophrenic man that the voices in his head are real and that he should do as they say?

Is that what you mean by "support"?

I support the transgender community first and foremost by caring about them. It hurts me that they are discriminated against, harassed and physically harmed for merely existing. I will not support and agree with politicians, legislature and people who hold views that are harmful to them.

I want for transgender people to have opportunity, freedom, peace of mind and love in their lives without feeling as if they are "other".

Gender dysphoria can be confusing and hard enough without the added heartache of discrimination.

How did you figure that?

Science.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You incorrectly believe that loving someone should also mean to agree with everything they believe and do.

I never said anything remotely close to that.

It is possible to love and respect someone and also believe they are delusional about their gender.

No. As you insist they are delusional about something they are not delusional about, you are not showing them love but intolerance and a blunt unwillingness to learn about them as a person.

I want them to accept reality. I don't want them to be bound by a delusion that causes depression and suicidality.

I really want you to quit giving out bad advice. You have absolutely no proof that transitioning causes people with gender dysphoria to become increasingly depressed and suicidal. If you'd take in the entire story, you'd see they are still high-risk, but so much less so prior to transitioning.

You would tell a schizophrenic man that the voices in his head are real and that he should do as they say?

Here is the thing: In schizophrenia someone will never improve if you tell them the voices are real and do as they say, and they will end up suffering exponentially and their ability to function in day-to-day life will greatly diminish, but, with gender dysphoria, when transgender people transition they don't suffer as much as they were, their ability to function socially and in day-to-day life often improves, and there is nothing studies have shown that suggests transitioning shouldn't happen. Sure, some regret it, but they are very few in number compared to the thousands living a better life.

 

[Prestor John]

I cannot take your level of ignorance seriously. Yes, it is ignorance.

Said the guy who, by looking at his quote, instantly assumes all religion is slavery?

Talk about having a closed-mind!

Anyways, I'm the first person to admit when I'm ignorant of something and I just haven't seem anything anywhere that convinces me that I am about this.

However, your simple assertion that I am ignorant won't convince anyone that I am - let alone myself.

You are free to try and prove my supposed ignorance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Anyways, I'm the first person to admit when I'm ignorant of something

You have thus far demonstrated the exact opposite. You are arguing against entire fields of study, members here who are experienced themselves in those fields, mountain ranges of research, legions of professionals, and first-hand experience thrown in on top of it.
But you keep insisting it's a delusion, and that they need proper help, but yet when we look at the DSM, the reference guide of those who give proper care, it does not mention or suggest gender dysphoria involves any sort of delusions.

You are free to try and prove my supposed ignorance.

Or you could try being open yourself and consider what people are trying to tell you, rather than going on with rants that do nothing but show how ignorant of the subject you really are.

 

[Liu]

I agree.

When did I say that I won't love a transgendered person until they accept their biological gender?

I want them to accept reality. I don't want them to be bound by a delusion that causes depression and suicidality.

I am concerned about their needs. Not my own.

Thank you for your support.
I think there is one misunderstanding there.
Gender dysphoria is not the belief that one actually is the opposite sex. If it was that I could agree on it being a delusion. (One's brain and therefore one's personality/subconscious/soul is, but not one's body.)
But what it is is feeling absolutely uncomfortable with (some or all) the sexual characteristics one has.
And it's assumed that this is because one's subconscious has basically a map of how one's body should normally look like, and this map having been shaped by the wrong hormones. It has some similarities to how if someone was born without legs or who lost their legs but still feels as if they were there. You wouldn't say they should learn to accept the reality, but instead support them in getting prosthetics, wouldn't you?

For many, it's additionally also feeling uncomfortable with the social roles associated with one's birth-sex, but that's not the defining criterion for transsexuality.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And it's assumed that this is because one's subconscious has basically a map of how one's body should normally look like, and this map having been shaped by the wrong hormones.

Assuming it's even wrong for that to happen in the first place.

But what it is is feeling absolutely uncomfortable with (some or all) the sexual characteristics one has.

Mine is to the point I don't really even enjoy sex (can't even orgasm most times). But, at the same time, that I can tell I'm tons baggier in the shoulders in all my shirts feels good, even if looking oddly deflated in my jacket. My forearms are way smaller, and I can't say I'm hairy anymore (and not from shaving or anything like that).

 

[Grumpuss]

Thank you for your support.
I think there is one misunderstanding there.
Gender dysphoria is not the belief that one actually is the opposite sex. If it was that I could agree on it being a delusion. (One's brain and therefore one's personality/subconscious/soul is, but not one's body.)
But what it is is feeling absolutely uncomfortable with (some or all) the sexual characteristics one has.

A bizarre psychological disorder, since it's basically shaking one's fist at God or Nature, and insisting that He/it's gotten it all wrong. It's right up there with people who mutilate their wives' or childrens' genitals, though they're doing it out of some barbaric tradition, not mental illness.

And it's assumed that this is because one's subconscious has basically a map of how one's body should normally look like, and this map having been shaped by the wrong hormones. It has some similarities to how if someone was born without legs or who lost their legs but still feels as if they were there. You wouldn't say they should learn to accept the reality, but instead support them in getting prosthetics, wouldn't you?

Good point. It depends if it makes them happy. Most of the evidence with transsexuals seems to indicate that they will remain massively depressed and/or suicidal, even after the transition.

For many, it's additionally also feeling uncomfortable with the social roles associated with one's birth-sex, but that's not the defining criterion for transsexuality.

Society doesn't assign the birth-sex though. The extent to which society should then be taxed with making transsexuals content is debatable. But blaming it for what God or Nature has provided seems like misplaced blame.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Good point. It depends if it makes them happy. Most of the evidence with transsexuals seems to indicate that they will remain massively depressed and/or suicidal, even after the transition.

True, but many, many, many studies highlight these are problems largely and mostly because people hold views such as these:
A bizarre psychological disorder, since it's basically shaking one's fist at God or Nature, and insisting that He/it's gotten it all wrong. It's right up there with people who mutilate their wives' or childrens' genitals, though they're doing it out of some barbaric tradition, not mental illness.
And so very often it does come from Christians. Christians, who were told to love their neighbor as their selves, yet they flood the world with so much hatred they make people depressed and suicidal.

Society doesn't assign the birth-sex though.

Actually, in many many instances, it does. Such as, a society that castrates some boys after birth may not view these eunuchs as men, but rather something else that isn't male or female. Society doesn't give us our genetic makeup, but it does tell us in nearly almost all instances how to handle and manage our genetic makeup. This goes far outside and beyond the scope of just LBGT issues.

 

[Grumpuss]

True, but many, many, many studies highlight these are problems largely and mostly because people hold views such as these:
A bizarre psychological disorder, since it's basically shaking one's fist at God or Nature, and insisting that He/it's gotten it all wrong. It's right up there with people who mutilate their wives' or childrens' genitals, though they're doing it out of some barbaric tradition, not mental illness.
And so very often it does come from Christians. Christians, who were told to love their neighbor as their selves, yet they flood the world with so much hatred they make people depressed and suicidal.

Only if all psychiatrists are Christians:

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons
Study shows rising rates of suicidal acts in transgender adults

People who have no exposure to religion, but who are so miserable that, unable to cope with their identity, even after full transition, attempt suicide at an alarming rate. With society more accepting of transsexuals, you'd expect that the "social stigma" would decrease, leading to a reduction of suicide also, but no- that hasn't been seen.

Actually, in many many instances, it does. Such as, a society that castrates some boys after birth may not view these eunuchs as men, but rather something else that isn't male or female. Society doesn't give us our genetic makeup, but it does tell us in nearly almost all instances how to handle and manage our genetic makeup. This goes far outside and beyond the scope of just LBGT issues.

You have a reading comprehension issue. Features and characteristics at BIRTH cannot be assigned by society. Perhaps through science, we'll one day get there. Anyone surgically altering testicles, breasts, clitorises, etc. is merely making cosmetic changes afterward to a model already infused by Nature's DNA.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam

So many self giving the right to judge other people 's choices, feelings, experiences in such ignorant way.

Protip: don't. Shut up and listen to the ones that are actually living this everyday.

I remember an old transgender in my neighbourhood back when I was in Mumbai. With no means or money to physically transition, yet she was still living her life as a woman, in the streets. Everyone around still affectionately called her "maa" (mom), and many young men would come discuss with her, seeking her advices like sons to their mother. And she would accept them and give them advice and shower them with her love and happiness, even in the darkest of days she would give joy to those motherless persons.

Look at such a beautiful person.
Now picture yourself throwing stones at her for "being some kind of unnatural freak"
I must ask: what the **** is wrong with you people ?
You are so BUSY getting into other people's pants and telling them what they should have/should keep that you seem to forget those are actual human beings that deserve the same respect and dignity as you.
Have some basic human social interaction that doesn't involve looking or debating about their crotch and THEN maybe after that you may have a more interesting opinion to give.

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Liu]

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons
Study shows rising rates of suicidal acts in transgender adults

Only that first link and one of the sources of the second link contain actual numbers on suicide attempts depending on whether people actually received hormones/surgery or not. But the numbers don't tell whether the suicide attempts were before or after the hormones/surgery (the first link even explicitly stresses that on page 8). It only shows that people with more dysphoria are more likely to commit suicide - which is to be expected.

It's right up there with people who mutilate their wives' or childrens' genitals, though they're doing it out of some barbaric tradition, not mental illness.

Making such a comparison is like saying someone who masturbates would be a rapist.

 

[Grumpuss]

Only that first link and one of the sources of the second link contain actual numbers on suicide attempts depending on whether people actually received hormones/surgery or not. But the numbers don't tell whether the suicide attempts were before or after the hormones/surgery (the first link even explicitly stresses that on page 8). It only shows that people with more dysphoria are more likely to commit suicide - which is to be expected.

So... you are denying it?

Making such a comparison is like saying someone who masturbates would be a rapist.

Mutilation ≠ mutilation ?

 

[Liu]

So... you are denying it?

Denying? I'm going by what scientific studies say, which is in the case of those you linked, they don't know.

Mutilation ≠ mutilation ?

Voluntary self-mutilation for improving one's mental health
≠
non-consensual mutilation of someone else risking their mental health

 

[Grumpuss]

Denying? I'm going by what scientific studies say, which is in the case of those you linked, they don't know.

Produce others, then. All the ones I've seen say the rate of attempted suicides are steady through the years.

Voluntary self-mutilation for improving one's mental health
≠
non-consensual mutilation of someone else risking their mental health

Except it doesn't improve one's mental health. 40% of them are still suicidal.

And I think you'll find those that mutilate others out of tradition claim they are "happy" too.

 

[Liu]

Produce others, then. All the ones I've seen say the rate of attempted suicides are steady through the years.


Except it doesn't improve one's mental health. 40% of them are still suicidal.

Please improve your reading ability. The 40% are that they ever attempted suicide during the course of their lives, not that they are still suicidal. The first article and source 8 of the second one both say that they have no numbers in regards to whether these suicide attempts were before or after the transitioning. The third article doesn't mention that topic at all.

Here's a summary of articles that actually do cover the question whether the quality of life improved or worsened after hormones and surgery: Quality of Life in Treated Transsexuals

And I think you'll find those that mutilate others out of tradition claim they are "happy" too.

Sure, but then there are two people affected, not only one. In the case of us transsexuals, we can say for ourselves whether hormones and surgery help or harm us, so that bias is not there.

 

[Grumpuss]

Please improve your reading ability. The 40% are that they ever attempted suicide during the course of their lives, not that they are still suicidal. The first article and source 8 of the second one both say that they have no numbers in regards to whether these suicide attempts were before or after the transitioning. The third article doesn't mention that topic at all.

Doesn't matter. Miserable before, after or during is indication of a serious medical condition, which is recognized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM–5). There are no psychiatric disorders known that are curable / treatable with body mutilation.

Here's a summary of articles that actually do cover the question whether the quality of life improved or worsened after hormones and surgery: Quality of Life in Treated Transsexuals

That's propaganda, sir.

Here are some actual studies that were performed:
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
Suicidality, Self‐Harm, and Body Dissatisfaction in Transgender Adolescents and Emerging Adults with Gender Dysphoria
http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS Full Report - FINAL 1.6.17.pdf

But hey, if you want to stick your head in the sand and deny scientific observation, so be it.

Sure, but then there are two people affected, not only one. In the case of us transsexuals, we can say for ourselves whether hormones and surgery help or harm us, so that bias is not there.

Confirmation bias. Young women of African descent who have had their clitorises maimed or Muslim women who wear burkas, often claim they are happier. It's the only life they've known under what most of the rest of the word would deem as "oppression", so they rationalize it as best they can. I can only imagine how many transsexuals feel painted into a corner too, having spent years of misery, drug treatments and sex reassignment surgery, and finding that they're still mostly miserable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Doesn't matter. Miserable before, after or during is indication of a serious medical condition, which is recognized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM–5).

"Miserable" is not recognized as a disorder in the DSM.

I can only imagine how many transsexuals feel painted into a corner too, having spent years of misery, drug treatments and sex reassignment surgery, and finding that they're still mostly miserable.

Actually, I'm finding I'm much happier, more relaxed, more calm, and feeling way better. And this isn't just me saying this, but pretty much everyone who has known for any time (even a newer friend who has only known me a few months is noticing mental/psychological changes) has noticed my improved mood, confidence, and self-esteem.

 

[Grumpuss]

"Miserable" is not recognized as a disorder in the DSM.

How about "depression" or "suicidal tendency"?

Actually, I'm finding I'm much happier, more relaxed, more calm, and feeling way better. And this isn't just me saying this, but pretty much everyone who has known for any time (even a newer friend who has only known me a few months is noticing mental/psychological changes) has noticed my improved mood, confidence, and self-esteem.

That's awesome, and I'm happy for you. You do recognize that your own experience doesn't necessarily mirror 100% of the transsexual population, don't you?

 

[Liu]

Doesn't matter. Miserable before, after or during is indication of a serious medical condition, which is recognized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM–5). There are no psychiatric disorders known that are curable / treatable with body mutilation.

There are, this one.

That's propaganda, sir.

Please explain how that's propaganda. I must admit that I haven't yet read all the 34 studies there, but the method of the summary at least is pretty sound.

Here are some actual studies that were performed:
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
Suicidality, Self‐Harm, and Body Dissatisfaction in Transgender Adolescents and Emerging Adults with Gender Dysphoria
http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS Full Report - FINAL 1.6.17.pdf

But hey, if you want to stick your head in the sand and deny scientific observation, so be it.

The first of them is actually covered in that "propaganda" summary I linked (as one of 3 studies that show a decline in quality of life - as opposed to 26 studies that show an improvement).

The second one is not available for free (and was published after the summary), but the abstract doesn't mention that it would be about changes before and after transition.

The third one (also published after the summary) is 302 pages long - it would have been nice if you would point me to where it covers our question. I looked through it but didn't find anything on it.

 

[Grumpuss]

There are, this one.

Please explain. The DSM does not state this.

Please explain how that's propaganda. I must admit that I haven't yet read all the 34 studies there, but the method of the summary at least is pretty sound.

1. Sets aside suicide rate as not as important.
2. Meta analysis. Notoriously prone to some fairly obvious bias.
3. 12 of the 34 (33) studies employ populations that won't produce a statistically significant result in MtF, FtM, or both groups. You can't simply add all these populations together, or take an average. That's sloppy science.
---
4. "Summary" conclusions noted only state some improvement in quality-of-life, with failure to set any kind of baseline mental health.
5. Detailed Results include unsourced criticism of data that doesn't agree with findings, indicating yet more confirmation bias.

The bottom line is, meta analysis is extremely dodgy at best, and scientifically invalid at worst. The author, Greta Una is not a scientist or even skilled researcher, and exhibits many hallmarks of confirmation bias. I wouldn't necessarily say that a transsexual person doing the search is invalidated, but given the other prejudices exhibited, it may be indicated here.

The first of them is actually covered in that "propaganda" summary I linked (as one of 3 studies that show a decline in quality of life - as opposed to 26 studies that show an improvement).

The second one is not available for free (and was published after the summary), but the abstract doesn't mention that it would be about changes before and after transition.

The third one (also published after the summary) is 302 pages long - it would have been nice if you would point me to where it covers our question. I looked through it but didn't find anything on it.

You don't like actual scientific explanation, fine. But I wish you'd say so, rather than just dismiss it out of hand.