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Are transgender/transsexual people accepted in your religion?

Are trans people accepted in your religion?

  • Yes

    Votes: 29 70.7%
  • No

    Votes: 2 4.9%
  • Maybe (explain in thread)

    Votes: 3 7.3%
  • Other (explain in thread)

    Votes: 7 17.1%

  • Total voters
    41

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I already explained to you why it is no BS, but you seem to have ignored my replies.
Sorry. I had every intention of addressing your earlier comments, but I was preparing my response to all of Shadow Wolf's comments and then people came on accusing me of all kinds of nonsense.

That ended up taking precedence.

My comment about "BS" had nothing to do with gender dysphoria, but with what Shadow Wolf had said about wishing to have not survived birth and then considering life precious.

That didn't sit well with me and I claimed that he was being disingenuous.

Shadow Wolf later cleared up what he meant so I will officially withdraw all my statements about him sharing any BS.

Anyways, as to your earlier comments, there are no officially accepted theories as to what causes gender dysphoria.

However, even if the theory you shared were correct, how would that prove that gender dysphoria is not a mental disorder?

Hormones altering the structure of our brains to make us "think" that we are the opposite gender would still be delusion.

Hormones altering the structure of our brains would still not change our biological sex.

You'd be a man who thinks he is a woman or a woman who thinks she is a man.

What I don't understand is why those who suffer from these delusions demand to take hormones that would align them with their mental image of themselves and not those that might help them come to cope with their physical reality?

Then about what you said in regards to my claim to having or not having a penis -

A man who has his penis cut off is still a man. He is just a mutilated man.

A woman who alters her clitoris or has some sort of prosthetic penis is still just a woman. She's just a cyborg or something.

About intersex individuals - I don't think referencing significant outliers proves anything. They are genetic or hormonal abnormalities that all vary widely one from another.

I would say to take each on a case-by-case basis, because they have actual physical evidences that would warrant caution, rather than those who simply "think" they are a member of the opposite sex.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Seems like you're not the first to think so, later centuries needed some more impressive stories. But not about Jesus, but about saints, because that's what happened to St. George, according to a 9th century poem: He was struck with a sword and then came back from the dead, he was killed with a breaking wheel which separated him into ten parts and then came back from the dead, he was grinded and burnt into dust, and then came back from the dead. And he even healed the blind and deaf etc. and defeated a hellhound. Makes you wonder why he isn't venerated more than Jesus.
Most likely because one of the central tenets of Christianity is that no one can come back to life without what Jesus did for us.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
(Shaktism, which is often associated with Eastern Left Hand Paths, also often stresses that one must deliberately do things which are taboo in order to properly transcend into spiritual domains. Because in doing so one has to break down mental barriers that one has put up. So males tapping into their femininity also have the added bonus of going against the norm or engaging in something taboo. Which is thought to help them on their path to enlightenment.)
What does that mean in practice? To the uninitiated like me it sounds like an excuse to do something naughty!
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
What does that mean in practice? To the uninitiated like me it sounds like an excuse to do something naughty!
Essentially it means to get the mind to think of all existence without barriers. Without labels such as good or bad. Everything has a reaction and that reaction can either be negative or positive. (Obviously if one is harming another person, this is called unethical regardless.)
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
How is asking a rhetorical question that causes someone to think about all the things that make them want to live not charitable?

Is it uncharitable to ask someone who confessed a desire to commit suicide why they chose not to go through with it?
It is neither charitable or uncharitable. I mean if you want to shock someone into some sort of existential crisis, then whatever. And I don't care for PC, nor walking on eggshells. I was offering a different perspective as a reaction to your words. It's all relative, but just because I might think you were being distasteful doesn't mean I was right, it was just how I perceived it. By the same token, merely thinking one is being charitable doesn't necessarily mean they are being charitable. It's just how they perceive their actions. And that perception could be the difference between pushing someone over the edge or getting them back on their feet.
It has nothing to do with victimhood mentality.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
It is neither charitable or uncharitable. I mean if you want to shock someone into some sort of existential crisis, then whatever. And I don't care for PC, nor walking on eggshells. I was offering a different perspective as a reaction to your words. It's all relative, but just because I might think you were being distasteful doesn't mean I was right, it was just how I perceived it. By the same token, merely thinking one is being charitable doesn't necessarily mean they are being charitable. It's just how they perceive their actions. And that perception could be the difference between pushing someone over the edge or getting them back on their feet.
It has nothing to do with victimhood mentality.
I don't know bro.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Essentially it means to get the mind to think of all existence without barriers. Without labels such as good or bad. Everything has a reaction and that reaction can either be negative or positive. (Obviously if one is harming another person, this is called unethical regardless.)
I see, so not physically engaging in anything taboo, rather considering it without cultural bias? Sure, I think that is a healthy exercise in getting to know yourself and understand reality better.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I see, so not physically engaging in anything taboo, rather considering it without cultural bias? Sure, I think that is a healthy exercise in getting to know yourself and understand reality better.
Well, no you still have to be err hands on. I mean that's part of the test, really. To engage in the taboo is to experience it for yourself, instead of relying on cultural bias. Normally as part of an organized prayer ritual overseen by Priests. This is meant to shock the system in a way that forces one to discard all mental barriers. (Note when I say taboo, this differs sect by sect. Some merely extend the taboo practices to imbibing drugs and alcohol, some are more extreme. Most include free sex as ritualistic practices, with consenting adults obviously. But there is a wide variety of practices is what I'm getting at.) All paths in Hinduism are experiential. They don't think that reading or merely practicing something with the mind to be enough in most cases.
 
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Liu

Well-Known Member
Sorry. I had every intention of addressing your earlier comments, but I was preparing my response to all of Shadow Wolf's comments and then people came on accusing me of all kinds of nonsense.
Okay, understood.

Anyways, as to your earlier comments, there are no officially accepted theories as to what causes gender dysphoria.
The theories I mentioned are the official accepted ones at the moment (or at least they were those mentioned in a university lecture I visited 1.5 years ago, and those that I have also encountered in other places before and since).
But, I agree that they are not proven so far, simply because there have not been enough participants in the studies yet (e.g. the study about the brain structure only included transwomen and only maybe 20 or so, if I recall it correctly - maybe other studies have been made in the meantime, though).
There are no better theories so far, though.

However, even if the theory you shared were correct, how would that prove that gender dysphoria is not a mental disorder?

Hormones altering the structure of our brains to make us "think" that we are the opposite gender would still be delusion.

Hormones altering the structure of our brains would still not change our biological sex.

You'd be a man who thinks he is a woman or a woman who thinks she is a man.

In a way it is a mental disorder (and I didn't say otherwise). I said that it's not the kind of mental disorder that could be treated with medicaments like e.g. shizophrenia can.
It's a matter of which aspect of a person you consider the deciding factor. If you say, it's their chromosomes or the genitals one was born with, then your arguments are coherent. However, I would deem it more important to consider the personality of the person.

What I don't understand is why those who suffer from these delusions demand to take hormones that would align them with their mental image of themselves and not those that might help them come to cope with their physical reality?
It has been tried, but it didn't work.
Hormones on the other hand have been proven to work.

Then about what you said in regards to my claim to having or not having a penis -

A man who has his penis cut off is still a man. He is just a mutilated man.

A woman who alters her clitoris or has some sort of prosthetic penis is still just a woman. She's just a cyborg or something.
Again, a matter of definition.

About intersex individuals - I don't think referencing significant outliers proves anything. They are genetic or hormonal abnormalities that all vary widely one from another.
Still they are a significant part of the population. I don't have numbers, but just going by what Wikipedia says there must be several percentage points of people born with genital or chromosomal abnormalities that make them neither male nor female.

Transpeople are about 0.4% of the whole population (that number is based on how many actually got their name and official gender changed by court here in Germany, the actual number is therefore probably higher).


Most likely because one of the central tenets of Christianity is that no one can come back to life without what Jesus did for us.
That comment of mine was mainly said in jest.

In Hinduism all humans are thought to possess femininity and masculinity. It is only society that forces us to choose between the two, since the atman (soul) is gender less. In Shaktism specifically the divine energy/power is thought the be inherently feminine. The creative force if you will, whilst the one doing the creating is inherently masculine. But the two must go hand in hand because neither can do their job without the other. Shiva without Shakti is shava (dead.)
Note this is probably not the best explanation, so take it as a sort of shaky translation.

Whilst females are thought to be already in tune with their femininity males are usually not so, because of social pressures to conform to masculinity. Therefore in order to properly understand the divine males must first forego the subconscious and tap into their latent femininity. It is merely a sect quirk. (Shaktism, which is often associated with Eastern Left Hand Paths, also often stresses that one must deliberately do things which are taboo in order to properly transcend into spiritual domains. Because in doing so one has to break down mental barriers that one has put up. So males tapping into their femininity also have the added bonus of going against the norm or engaging in something taboo. Which is thought to help them on their path to enlightenment.)
Can you tell me why that much stress on the feminine side? I see why it would be the case in Shaktism, but even in Shaivism, I have never heard of it encouraging females to explore their masculine side. I once read that females were not considered real treaters of the path in tantra, and, while highly honoured, only had the task of helping the males with their quest for enlightenment, even in this rather unconventional religion. They were basically assumed to already be embodiments of the goddess.

I'm a transmale, and I have quite a bit of interest in Hinduism, especially Shaivism, but what I find it is not any more adapted to my situation than other paths.

Btw, from my own impression, there do seem to be a lot more transpeople among (western) LHPers than among the general population, relatively speaking. Even without that many of them being familiar with this aspect of Shaktism. Who knows whether Shaktism includes aspects of transsexuality because of some religious theories, or whether not rather some transpeople influenced Shaktism in this way so that it would fit their needs better.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Can you tell me why that much stress on the feminine side? I see why it would be the case in Shaktism, but even in Shaivism, I have never heard of it encouraging females to explore their masculine side. I once read that females were not considered real treaters of the path in tantra, and, while highly honoured, only had the task of helping the males with their quest for enlightenment, even in this rather unconventional religion. They were basically assumed to already be embodiments of the goddess.

Shaktism and Shaivism are complementary paths. Whilst most Hindu sects do tend to "bleed together at the sides" Shaktism and Shaivism seem to do it the most. They seem to have influenced each other in their respective evolution. So you might find it a bit difficult to separate certain sects of both paths, hence it's not particularly unusual for them to share the same ideas.

Never heard of females not being considered real treaters of the path in Tantra. Perhaps that's a just a sect thing.

Btw, from my own impression, there do seem to be a lot more transpeople among (western) LHPers than among the general population, relatively speaking. Even without that many of them being familiar with this aspect of Shaktism. Who knows whether Shaktism includes aspects of transsexuality because of some religious theories, or whether not rather some transpeople influenced Shaktism in this way so that it would fit their needs better.
Well, I don't know. Transpeople in Hinduism is sort of met with a wide variety of opinions, not being specifically denounced by any Holy Text. Ranging from social stigma, disgust, indifference and even reverence.
Kali is thought to be a special protector for the Hijra, so Transpeople may well have had a great influence on Shaktism, especially Kuala Kali.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I have no official source on that at hand, but from all I heard, the suicide rate before transitioning is a lot higher than after.
I heard the opposite. See Shadow Wolf's post.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
I heard the opposite. See Shadow Wolf's post.
@Shadow Wolf said the same as me:
While statistically, yes, that is true, there is also the fact that is after a huge decrease from the "risk group" or those who haven't transitioned.
I.e. after transitioning the suicide rate is still higher than normal, but before transitioning it's much higher.

It's not naturally occurring and it's just scientists messing with things again.
A lot of things are not "naturally" occurring. Like the technology needed for this forum.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
A lot of things are not "naturally" occurring. Like the technology needed for this forum.
I referred to the body. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

But to be honest, this is pretty futile. We are never going to agree and some people are just going to be offended. I'm not interested in that.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
I referred to the body. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

But to be honest, this is pretty futile. We are never going to agree and some people are just going to be offended. I'm not interested in that.
It's a matter of having different values I guess.

Shaktism and Shaivism are complementary paths. Whilst most Hindu sects do tend to "bleed together at the sides" Shaktism and Shaivism seem to do it the most. They seem to have influenced each other in their respective evolution. So you might find it a bit difficult to separate certain sects of both paths, hence it's not particularly unusual for them to share the same ideas.

Never heard of females not being considered real treaters of the path in Tantra. Perhaps that's a just a sect thing.
That part I read in a book by a western author, if I recall it right. So who knows what's true about it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
How is asking a rhetorical question that causes someone to think about all the things that make them want to live not charitable?
Except you didn't say or ask anything that made me think. From the start you have not wanted to accept anything I've said, and always trying to play it as something else.
What I don't understand is why those who suffer from these delusions demand to take hormones that would align them with their mental image of themselves and not those that might help them come to cope with their physical reality?
For one, it's not a delusion, and for two hormone treatment helps people with gender dysphoria. And, while admittedly the effects of hormone treatment alone haven't really been studied much, but the overall process has, and the end result is a better quality of life for those with gender dysphoria.
She's just a cyborg or something.
Most people today to some degree already are cyborgs enhanced mechanically beyond their natural/normal abilities. Such as, I am near sighted but by with a slight adjustment to my "ocular setup" an extra lens is added to my vision process and the near sightedness clears up. Not as fancy or advanced as Luke Skywalker's hand, but it's the same concept.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I heard the opposite. See Shadow Wolf's post.
You didn't hear the opposite from me.
I referred to the body. If it's not broken, don't fix it.
While that may be true, ultimately if the "peripherals" aren't compatible with the "operating system" things just aren't going to work. And as previously stated, attempts to change the mind have been more-or-less just as equally "successful" as conversion therapy.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
A lot of things are not "naturally" occurring. Like the technology needed for this forum.
The "natural" argument is probably the worst one out there. It's not at all natural to correct my vision with glasses, but the "natural" crowd has no problem with this.
Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's necessarily good, just because it's unnatural doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Western medicine wouldn't have it very far otherwise.
 
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