• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are transgender/transsexual people accepted in your religion?

Are trans people accepted in your religion?

  • Yes

    Votes: 29 70.7%
  • No

    Votes: 2 4.9%
  • Maybe (explain in thread)

    Votes: 3 7.3%
  • Other (explain in thread)

    Votes: 7 17.1%

  • Total voters
    41

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
The "natural" argument is probably the worst one out there. It's not at all natural to correct my vision with glasses, but the "natural" crowd has no problem with this.
Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's necessarily good, just because it's unnatural doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Western medicine wouldn't have it very far otherwise.
The problem is humans need something to judge by; some kind of standard. I and many others fully appreciate that natural isn't automatically good, but at the same time there needs to be something for humans to reference in order to gauge whether our actions are right or wrong. If we just make it up completely then we just become lost. I could equally say that I am undeniably attracted to 8-14 y/o kids of both sexes and there is always a crowd who comes and says 'It's not right because reproduction etc'. Well, that makes sense. But...it doesn't always make sense for every situation. What humans seek is a metre to gauge whether something is right or wrong. Something that works for all contexts or else there is that inevitable person "Ah yes, but it doesn't work for x therefore you're wrong!"

But in our modern world there isn't one. So we ***** and argue and fight. We can't always rely on our emotions, or even our own logic, so we are in the dark.

Until this is sorted, we will continue to *****.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If we just make it up completely then we just become lost.
Outside of the very basic pro-and-anti-social behaviors, we pretty much are making up as we go along. We evolved to be social animals, to support this idea, and beyond that, say age of sexual consent, preferred mate pairings, what and how you eat, what we can or can't say, there is no consistency in these things. And, in more modern times, we haven't been making them up so much as we have been thinking things through and asking tough questions concerning morality. Women didn't gain their position in society because it was always considered the moral thing for them to have, they gained their status because it was immoral for them to have anything much better than being a housewife or secretary even just a century ago.
Something that works for all contexts or else there is that inevitable person "Ah yes, but it doesn't work for x therefore you're wrong!"
I have yet to find any moral principle that can be applied equally in all situations and contexts, such as killing another human, which is wrong not in all instances but rather in most instances.
But in our modern world there isn't one. So we ***** and argue and fight. We can't always rely on our emotions, or even our own logic, so we are in the dark.
Except we've had Englightenment-era philosophies guiding or contemporary sense of morality for awhile now, and there is a growing number of those who claims science can provide us with a stable sense of morality. I don't fully agree, but it certainly helps us to sort and figure out many things.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Outside of the very basic pro-and-anti-social behaviors, we pretty much are making up as we go along. We evolved to be social animals, to support this idea, and beyond that, say age of sexual consent, preferred mate pairings, what and how you eat, what we can or can't say, there is no consistency in these things. And, in more modern times, we haven't been making them up so much as we have been thinking things through and asking tough questions concerning morality. Women didn't gain their position in society because it was always considered the moral thing for them to have, they gained their status because it was immoral for them to have anything much better than being a housewife or secretary even just a century ago.

I have yet to find any moral principle that can be applied equally in all situations and contexts, such as killing another human, which is wrong not in all instances but rather in most instances.

Except we've had Englightenment-era philosophies guiding or contemporary sense of morality for awhile now, and there is a growing number of those who claims science can provide us with a stable sense of morality. I don't fully agree, but it certainly helps us to sort and figure out many things.
I am a very black and white thinker, Shadow, for me it is or isn't. It's why I'm consistently unhappy. I'm an Authoritarian, remember ;)

In any case, whatever we are doing doesn't seem to be working very well since it seems no two people can agree.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Well, no you still have to be err hands on. I mean that's part of the test, really. To engage in the taboo is to experience it for yourself, instead of relying on cultural bias. Normally as part of an organized prayer ritual overseen by Priests. This is meant to shock the system in a way that forces one to discard all mental barriers. (Note when I say taboo, this differs sect by sect. Some merely extend the taboo practices to imbibing drugs and alcohol, some are more extreme. Most include free sex as ritualistic practices, with consenting adults obviously. But there is a wide variety of practices is what I'm getting at.) All paths in Hinduism are experiential. They don't think that reading or merely practicing something with the mind to be enough in most cases.
I see, a little naughtiness is allowed then! Seriously, I am very ignorant when it comes to the Eastern Religions, your input is appreciated.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
The theories I mentioned are the official accepted ones at the moment (or at least they were those mentioned in a university lecture I visited 1.5 years ago, and those that I have also encountered in other places before and since). But, I agree that they are not proven so far, simply because there have not been enough participants in the studies yet (e.g. the study about the brain structure only included transwomen and only maybe 20 or so, if I recall it correctly - maybe other studies have been made in the meantime, though).
There are no better theories so far, though.
I understand but recognize that it is neither here nor there.

How or what causes gender dysphoria is irrelevant to what is or is not physical reality.

I just wish the media would stop exploiting those with this mental illness so they can get the proper care they need.

The hormones and transition surgery don't help lower the suicide rate in the transgender community.
In a way it is a mental disorder (and I didn't say otherwise). I said that it's not the kind of mental disorder that could be treated with medicaments like e.g. shizophrenia can.
Oh ok. I got you now.

What I don't understand is why the delusions of schizophrenia and other mental disorders are discouraged while those had by transgendered peoples are largely supported.
It's a matter of which aspect of a person you consider the deciding factor. If you say, it's their chromosomes or the genitals one was born with, then your arguments are coherent. However, I would deem it more important to consider the personality of the person.
I could not disagree with this more.

There are absolute realities that we have need to recognize no matter what people do or believe.

A blind person may never have seen light, but that does not mean that light does not exist. The experiences or personality of the blind person cannot change that fact.

A white person cannot become a black person, even if they adapt and design their entire lives around all things "black" (whatever those may be), they cannot change their race.

No one can change their age. They may want to be younger and even have selected surgery in an attempt to delude themselves and others, but no one can change their age.

Same goes for all those kids sporting fake IDs to get liquor. The license may say they are the legal age, but reality would disagree.

No matter how effeminate a man is, he is not a woman and can never be a woman. The same goes for all the masculine women out there. They will never be men.

Those are the facts of the physical universe and they should not be tossed aside to appease someone's delusions or to spare their feelings.
It has been tried, but it didn't work.
Hormones on the other hand have been proven to work.
Well, what "works" is rather subjective.

To me, a prescription that would help people overcome delusion and accept reality would be what would "work."

However, you misunderstood my comment.

What I was asking was why a male-to-female transgendered person would take those hormones that would cause their body to become more feminine to align with their delusional image of themselves, rather than take those hormones that would make them more masculine, like testosterone and others.

Why would they rather try to adapt to their delusion rather than the reality of their physical body?

I mean, we tell the schizophrenics and others that the voices in their heads are not real, so why does the media and other outlets support the delusions of the transgendered?
Again, a matter of definition.
Not in biology..
Still they are a significant part of the population. I don't have numbers, but just going by what Wikipedia says there must be several percentage points of people born with genital or chromosomal abnormalities that make them neither male nor female.
I think I read somewhere that it was about 1 in 2000.

However, I believe in most cases that the characteristics of one gender are more dominant than the other.

I don't there there are many, if any, people who fall right on the middle line between the genders.
Transpeople are about 0.4% of the whole population (that number is based on how many actually got their name and official gender changed by court here in Germany, the actual number is therefore probably higher).
I believe that number would decrease significantly once their delusions are no longer entertained and supported.
That comment of mine was mainly said in jest.
Yeah, I figured, but many false things have been said about Christ on this thread so I had my radar up and my finger on that big red button.
 
Last edited:

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I believe so. My call to love trumps anything else. Without compassion and understanding, one can't reflect Christ's love.
Hi! Haven't seen you in awhile!
Too bad more don't hold this position. It would make life so much easier.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
You can love a person without agreeing with what they do.

If not, then Christ never truly loved anyone.

Precisely. Placing conditions on something is the opposite of being unconditional. God supposedly loves all, yet he places conditions on humans to earn their love. That is not unconditional love.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Hi! Haven't seen you in awhile!
Too bad more don't hold this position. It would make life so much easier.
You incorrectly believe that loving someone should also mean to agree with everything they believe and do.

It is possible to love and respect someone and also believe they are delusional about their gender.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Precisely. Placing conditions on something is the opposite of being unconditional. God supposedly loves all, yet he places conditions on humans to earn their love. That is not unconditional love.
I don't follow your logic.

How did you come to the conclusion that God places conditions on humans to earn their love?
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
You incorrectly believe that loving someone should also mean to agree with everything they believe and do.

It is possible to love and respect someone and also believe they are delusional about their gender.

Love means not placing conditions on someone else that fits your needs.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I just wish the media would stop exploiting those with this mental illness so they can get the proper care they need.
A very good amount of psychologists who counsel transgender patients do not accept being transgender in itself a mental disorder, but rather a condition that can lead to mental disorders such as depression and anxiety from the dysphoria caused by a mismatched body and brain, and social difficulties from others.
And, this "proper care" you insist on, if someone has gender dysphoria the proper care, as always in psychology, revolves around the needs of the individual client and helping them to meet their established goals (what they seek from therapy). Not everyone with gender dysphoria does transition, some just cross dress once in awhile, some just take hormones, some live full time as their identified sex but decline any surgery, and some get them. And just because you show up and say "this is how I feel" does not mean you will get hormones and surgery, as it must be clear the client has gender dysphoria and not another disorder that may have triggered such thoughts.

The hormones and transition surgery don't help lower the suicide rate in the transgender community.
Actually, they do, by quite a lot. My own statement is only anecdotal, but it's been so many years since I've had any thoughts of suicide or thinking I'd be better off dead.
What I was asking was why a male-to-female transgendered person would take those hormones that would cause their body to become more feminine to align with their delusional image of themselves, rather than take those hormones that would make them more masculine, like testosterone and others.
I actually tried that, back when I was still very much in denial of who I am, wanting to be a man, and considered my gender dysphoria a very dark secret I was taking to the grave, and was very desperate to "purge" myself of it. The overall effects of the testosterone worked, and did what testosterone is supposed to do, but it did nothing to help my gender dysphoria. I can't say it made it worse, but it certainly did nothing to help me feel better about being a man.
Estrogen, on the other hand, it wasn't long at all before pretty much everyone that knows me was mentioning they could notice a tremendous improvement in my mood, mental states, self esteem, and confidence. People say I'm more relaxed, more open, more conversational, more easy going, and not as stressed or tense or closed off to the world. And they're right. I smile so much more than I used to, I'm far happier than I've ever been (to heights I didn't know existed), and I can even say it's been so so very long since I cried myself to sleep because I was so depressed.
I'll take the giggling and playful me over the ultra-depressed-not giving one **** about life or anyone-no goals or direction-destructive-never caught criminal me of the past any day. That old me is long dead, a former life, shed like an ugly husk.

Not in biology..
Humans aren't just biology though. Were it so, we wouldn't have psychology, sociology, or anthropology.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Love means not placing conditions on someone else that fits your needs.
I agree.

When did I say that I won't love a transgendered person until they accept their biological gender?

I want them to accept reality. I don't want them to be bound by a delusion that causes depression and suicidality.

I am concerned about their needs. Not my own.
"Follow my law or burn"
So, what if a parent tells their young child to follow their instruction, which is not to touch a hot stove?

And then the parent explains that the consequence of touching a hot stove would be that the child would get burned.

This parent is placing conditions on their love for the child?
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
I agree.

When did I say that I won't love a transgendered person until they accept their biological gender?

I want them to accept reality. I don't want them to be bound by a delusion that causes depression and suicidality.

I am concerned about their needs. Not my own.

So, what if a parent tells their young child to follow their instruction, which is not to touch a hot stove?

And then the parent explains that the consequence of touching a hot stove would be that the child would get burned.

This parent is placing conditions on their love for the child?

I cannot take your level of ignorance seriously. Yes, it is ignorance.
 
Top