Are we fundamentally good or evil?

[Araceli Cianna]

I started watching the series on Netflix called "The Good Place". It's about a woman who died and finds herself in 'heaven' by accident, because she was a bad person on earth. But it actually turns out this 'heaven' is false and is actually hell.

Now, when I watched it, I didn't like the message of it because it was saying that if you do more good than evil in your life then you go to heaven. The problem being that the absolute tiniest thing you do could be considered good or evil. Since I'm quite self-judgemental the show naturally affected me, and made me realise how selfish I really am, even when I actually thought I was good.

My Christian background came to me and I suddenly had that enlightening thought of "Ah! This is why Christians need Christ, because they feel fundamentally evil without his saving grace". The fall of man then makes more sense.

But it's not my belief. I am trying to shake it but it's making me confused. Are we fundamentally more good than evil? Is it possible to be perfect? Do we need redeeming? Or am I just a self-perfectionist due to bad self esteem and easily find fault with myself?

I mean, I don't do 'bad' things, like murder, deal drugs, steal, hurt people. But, I'm human and I know my intentions are not always pure. I am always looking out for N.o. 1. Do we need to strike a balance instead?

I always believed that people are good deep down. And that all people have equal amounts of good and evil in them but the stronger is the one they choose to feed.

Or is the whole concept of good and evil bogus anyway because we only do what our biological instincts tell us to do? Everything we do is ultimately to ensure the survival of the human race....

But perhaps our flesh really is corrupted and we need to be 'transformed' somehow to actually get into 'heaven' (if you believe it exists).... only problem is I can't imagine it's possible for a such a place to even exist. Otherwise it would strip us completely of what it means to be human?

I'm having an ethical dilemma. Opinions...? Maybe I should forget all this and just carry on with my life, lol.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

1. Original sin is a Christian interpretation of Hebrew Scripture not shared by Jews.
2. Wilson's 2-part The Biological Basis of Morality is worth reading.

 

[Liu]

Or is the whole concept of good and evil bogus anyway because we only do what our biological instincts tell us to do? Everything we do is ultimately to ensure the survival of the human race....

From the perspective of amorality (or moral relativism), to which I subscribe, yes.
(technically, not everything is for the survival of the human race, but everything we do is because it's in our nature to do so)

But perhaps our flesh really is corrupted and we need to be 'transformed' somehow to actually get into 'heaven' (if you believe it exists).... only problem is I can't imagine it's possible for a such a place to even exist. Otherwise it would strip us completely of what it means to be human?

It's all metaphysical speculations based on wishful thinking and/or self-criticism. In the LHP-religions, we even believe that to become divine and immortal, if such is possible at all, clinging to human-made constructs of good and evil is actually a hindrance. It's rather about finding what you truly wish to do yourself, instead of what anyone outside yourself tells you.
Whether that will get you to heaven? Who knows.

 

[bobhikes]

Good and Bad are subjective and Evil is just a subjective classification of Bad. Humans for the most part must be doing good things or the species would not survive for long.

If God exists Good and Bad are relative to God and not human existence, so one would have to Know which God exists and what does said God believe good is. Far as I can tell this is an impossible mission so don't sweat it. Unless God speaks directly to you, just do the good things that help other humans and believe in a forgiving god.

 

[Kemosloby]

I started watching the series on Netflix called "The Good Place". It's about a woman who died and finds herself in 'heaven' by accident, because she was a bad person on earth. But it actually turns out this 'heaven' is false and is actually hell.

Now, when I watched it, I didn't like the message of it because it was saying that if you do more good than evil in your life then you go to heaven. The problem being that the absolute tiniest thing you do could be considered good or evil. Since I'm quite self-judgemental the show naturally affected me, and made me realise how selfish I really am, even when I actually thought I was good.

My Christian background came to me and I suddenly had that enlightening thought of "Ah! This is why Christians need Christ, because they feel fundamentally evil without his saving grace". The fall of man then makes more sense.

But it's not my belief. I am trying to shake it but it's making me confused. Are we fundamentally more good than evil? Is it possible to be perfect? Do we need redeeming? Or am I just a self-perfectionist due to bad self esteem and easily find fault with myself?

I mean, I don't do 'bad' things, like murder, deal drugs, steal, hurt people. But, I'm human and I know my intentions are not always pure. I am always looking out for N.o. 1. Do we need to strike a balance instead?

I always believed that people are good deep down. And that all people have equal amounts of good and evil in them but the stronger is the one they choose to feed.

Or is the whole concept of good and evil bogus anyway because we only do what our biological instincts tell us to do? Everything we do is ultimately to ensure the survival of the human race....

But perhaps our flesh really is corrupted and we need to be 'transformed' somehow to actually get into 'heaven' (if you believe it exists).... only problem is I can't imagine it's possible for a such a place to even exist. Otherwise it would strip us completely of what it means to be human?

I'm having an ethical dilemma. Opinions...? Maybe I should forget all this and just carry on with my life, lol.

People are fundamentally capable of both good and evil. But one small sin brought death to the world. Which shows God does not tolerate sin in paradise. All people have sinned so how does anyone get back to paradise? That's basically the arguement.

 

[sayak83]

I started watching the series on Netflix called "The Good Place". It's about a woman who died and finds herself in 'heaven' by accident, because she was a bad person on earth. But it actually turns out this 'heaven' is false and is actually hell.

Now, when I watched it, I didn't like the message of it because it was saying that if you do more good than evil in your life then you go to heaven. The problem being that the absolute tiniest thing you do could be considered good or evil. Since I'm quite self-judgemental the show naturally affected me, and made me realise how selfish I really am, even when I actually thought I was good.

My Christian background came to me and I suddenly had that enlightening thought of "Ah! This is why Christians need Christ, because they feel fundamentally evil without his saving grace". The fall of man then makes more sense.

But it's not my belief. I am trying to shake it but it's making me confused. Are we fundamentally more good than evil? Is it possible to be perfect? Do we need redeeming? Or am I just a self-perfectionist due to bad self esteem and easily find fault with myself?

I mean, I don't do 'bad' things, like murder, deal drugs, steal, hurt people. But, I'm human and I know my intentions are not always pure. I am always looking out for N.o. 1. Do we need to strike a balance instead?

I always believed that people are good deep down. And that all people have equal amounts of good and evil in them but the stronger is the one they choose to feed.

Or is the whole concept of good and evil bogus anyway because we only do what our biological instincts tell us to do? Everything we do is ultimately to ensure the survival of the human race....

But perhaps our flesh really is corrupted and we need to be 'transformed' somehow to actually get into 'heaven' (if you believe it exists).... only problem is I can't imagine it's possible for a such a place to even exist. Otherwise it would strip us completely of what it means to be human?

I'm having an ethical dilemma. Opinions...? Maybe I should forget all this and just carry on with my life, lol.

We are fundamentally neurotic and think too much. Thus stop thinking and start laughing.

 

[jackvincent]

Yes.

 

[Brickjectivity]

...Are we fundamentally more good than evil? Is it possible to be perfect? Do we need redeeming? Or am I just a self-perfectionist due to bad self esteem and easily find fault with myself?...

I think its better to categorize our relationships and ask if they are good or evil and whether those need redeeming. You can work to make your relationships better, and that makes you better. What is an ideal friendship? Is it one with zero lies? Is it one where you do whatever the other person wants? Is it a boring one or one full of passion? Should all relationships be the same?

Also we do not live to ourselves alone, and we prosper or suffer in communities and families. What your neighbor does affects you sometimes, and you get lumped in with your neighbors. So you could live alone in a house smiling and making toys for children while your neighbor is torturing flies, and in that case what is the overall goodness of you and your neighbor together who may have never met you. You may want to consider where you live and whom is around you to be a part of your personal balance of good and evil, because it is by most tallies even if that seems unfair.

 

[Sunstone]

I think any close study of child development will fundamentally undermine any notion that we are either born good or that we are born bad.

The human brain is not fully developed until the age of about 23, and many traits that we consider "good" or "bad" are absent in us at birth. Children, for instance, are incapable of genuine compassion until about the age of seven. Black and white dichotomous thinking in some ways is all that's possible until sometime around age of 13-15 (and some people never seem to grow out of it, even after their brains are "wired" to think more realistically). To say that we're born good or evil is to suppose that we're born developmentally complete. That is simply not true.

 

[Spiderman]

We are fundamentally both

 

[Kapalika]

I choose "none of the above" and if I felt like it I could probably dig up some scripture to back that up.

We are fundamentally neurotic and think too much. Thus stop thinking and start laughing.

I was about to say "how very Buddhist of you" then you posted a Buddha...

I think any close study of child development will fundamentally undermine any notion that we are either born good or that we are born bad.

The human brain is not fully developed until the age of about 23, and many traits that we consider "good" or "bad" are absent in us at birth. Children, for instance, are incapable of genuine compassion until about the age of seven. Black and white dichotomous thinking in some ways is all that's possible until sometime around age of 13-15 (and some people never seem to grow out of it, even after their brains are "wired" to think more realistically). To say that we're born good or evil is to suppose that we're born developmentally complete. That is simply not true.

While that's a valid way to convince some, I'd rather just say that what's good to one is bad to another is based on their values and so ultimately good and bad become pragmatic.

I don't think that looking at child development though will convince everyone. Someone I knew once, after their daughter was born, that he was 'amazed' that "you can see the sin nature in them even as an infant". His reasoning was that babies cry a bunch even after being fed and getting attention because they "selfishly" want more attention. Everyone but his wife and her family was horrified by that idea.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm having an ethical dilemma. Opinions...? Maybe I should forget all this and just carry on with my life, lol.

Sounds like an excellent idea! "Good" and "evil" are a construct anyway - a narrative humans make up and project onto the world. When it stops being useful for you - whenever any narrative stops being useful for you and instead is a source of dysfunction in your life - it's time to retire it.

 

[Stevicus]

I started watching the series on Netflix called "The Good Place". It's about a woman who died and finds herself in 'heaven' by accident, because she was a bad person on earth. But it actually turns out this 'heaven' is false and is actually hell.

Now, when I watched it, I didn't like the message of it because it was saying that if you do more good than evil in your life then you go to heaven. The problem being that the absolute tiniest thing you do could be considered good or evil. Since I'm quite self-judgemental the show naturally affected me, and made me realise how selfish I really am, even when I actually thought I was good.

My Christian background came to me and I suddenly had that enlightening thought of "Ah! This is why Christians need Christ, because they feel fundamentally evil without his saving grace". The fall of man then makes more sense.

But it's not my belief. I am trying to shake it but it's making me confused. Are we fundamentally more good than evil? Is it possible to be perfect? Do we need redeeming? Or am I just a self-perfectionist due to bad self esteem and easily find fault with myself?

I mean, I don't do 'bad' things, like murder, deal drugs, steal, hurt people. But, I'm human and I know my intentions are not always pure. I am always looking out for N.o. 1. Do we need to strike a balance instead?

I always believed that people are good deep down. And that all people have equal amounts of good and evil in them but the stronger is the one they choose to feed.

Or is the whole concept of good and evil bogus anyway because we only do what our biological instincts tell us to do? Everything we do is ultimately to ensure the survival of the human race....

But perhaps our flesh really is corrupted and we need to be 'transformed' somehow to actually get into 'heaven' (if you believe it exists).... only problem is I can't imagine it's possible for a such a place to even exist. Otherwise it would strip us completely of what it means to be human?

I'm having an ethical dilemma. Opinions...? Maybe I should forget all this and just carry on with my life, lol.

I think humans have a desire to be "good" - or at least to be seen as "good." Nobody wants to be seen as "evil." Even if someone commits an atrocious act of evil, they may still try to justify it in some way and try to persuade themselves and others that it was ultimate an act of good, not evil.

But I tend to think that humans operate mostly on instinct and emotion, while the rationalizations tend to come later.

 

[PureX]

I started watching the series on Netflix called "The Good Place". It's about a woman who died and finds herself in 'heaven' by accident, because she was a bad person on earth. But it actually turns out this 'heaven' is false and is actually hell.

Now, when I watched it, I didn't like the message of it because it was saying that if you do more good than evil in your life then you go to heaven. The problem being that the absolute tiniest thing you do could be considered good or evil. Since I'm quite self-judgemental the show naturally affected me, and made me realise how selfish I really am, even when I actually thought I was good.

My Christian background came to me and I suddenly had that enlightening thought of "Ah! This is why Christians need Christ, because they feel fundamentally evil without his saving grace". The fall of man then makes more sense.

But it's not my belief. I am trying to shake it but it's making me confused. Are we fundamentally more good than evil? Is it possible to be perfect? Do we need redeeming? Or am I just a self-perfectionist due to bad self esteem and easily find fault with myself?

We are both. And what's more, we do not possess the wisdom to know the difference most of the time. And THIS is why we need to practice forgiveness. Why we need to forgive others when they "trespass against us" and why we need to ask others for their forgiveness even when we think we are "innocent" of any trespass against them. This is why we need to be redeemed by some higher power, and are not able to redeem ourselves.

I mean, I don't do 'bad' things, like murder, deal drugs, steal, hurt people. But, I'm human and I know my intentions are not always pure. I am always looking out for N.o. 1. Do we need to strike a balance instead?

I think we need to understand that we are not God. We do not have the wisdom, knowledge, or insight to know our own motives, or the motives of others in most instances. So we are not equipped to stand in judgment of ourselves, each other, or the world around us. Yet we presume to possess this "knowledge of good and evil" all the time. And then use that presumption to judge all creation as if we were gods, and as if creation exists to serve our needs and desires. This is mankind's "original sin" in the Bible. This is the sin that leads us into all other sins. This sin of hubris, and self-delusion.

The Christian ideal as I understand it is that we trust in the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity that exists within us all, as we are reflections of our Creator; instead of following our own selfish and self-centered delusions of what is right and wrong, good and evil. And then trust that God will make up the difference when we inevitably screw up. Even when we can't see it, or can't see how.

I always believed that people are good deep down. And that all people have equal amounts of good and evil in them but the stronger is the one they choose to feed.

I think we feed one 'side' of us or the other, every time we choose to act on them. Every time we lie it becomes a little easier for us to do it again. Every time judge and condemn another, it becomes a little easier to do it again, and to hold onto that self-righteous indignation a little longer. And so on.

We are defining ourselves by our choices, every day of our lives. We are creating who we will become. And repentance, and forgiveness, are tools we can use to change that course when we feel that it's taken a wrong turn; that it's making us into someone that we don't want to be.

Or is the whole concept of good and evil bogus anyway because we only do what our biological instincts tell us to do? Everything we do is ultimately to ensure the survival of the human race....

I think we both know that isn't true. The fact that you can ask the question pretty much proves that.

But perhaps our flesh really is corrupted and we need to be 'transformed' somehow to actually get into 'heaven' (if you believe it exists).... only problem is I can't imagine it's possible for a such a place to even exist. Otherwise it would strip us completely of what it means to be human?

I'm having an ethical dilemma. Opinions...? Maybe I should forget all this and just carry on with my life, lol.

I think we should concern ourselves with who, what, and where we are, now, and worry about "heaven", later. And, anyway, ethics are supposed to be a "dilemma". That dilemma (unknowing) is what gives us the freedom to choose who we are, and who we want to become. It's what makes us "co-creators" of ourselves. But to appreciate that, we need to humble ourselves. And stop pretending that we should have all the answers. We don't. And we shouldn't. And if we did, life would be both pointless, and very boring.

 

[sun rise]

...

But it's not my belief. I am trying to shake it but it's making me confused. Are we fundamentally more good than evil? Is it possible to be perfect? Do we need redeeming? Or am I just a self-perfectionist due to bad self esteem and easily find fault with myself?

I mean, I don't do 'bad' things, like murder, deal drugs, steal, hurt people. But, I'm human and I know my intentions are not always pure. I am always looking out for N.o. 1. Do we need to strike a balance instead?

I always believed that people are good deep down. And that all people have equal amounts of good and evil in them but the stronger is the one they choose to feed.

Or is the whole concept of good and evil bogus anyway because we only do what our biological instincts tell us to do? Everything we do is ultimately to ensure the survival of the human race....

But perhaps our flesh really is corrupted and we need to be 'transformed' somehow to actually get into 'heaven' (if you believe it exists).... only problem is I can't imagine it's possible for a such a place to even exist. Otherwise it would strip us completely of what it means to be human?

I'm having an ethical dilemma. Opinions...? Maybe I should forget all this and just carry on with my life, lol.

When you wrote 'choose to feed', are you referring to this story:

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.

“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

There is another frame-of-reference which goes something like: there is no such thing as good or evil. "Evil" is the residue of a more primitive self and "good" is what people evolve into.

I also don't believe in the Christian heaven and hell but rather view them as the pleasure and pain we feel when we review our lives and the times we acted with love and compassion and the times we fell short. Once the review is complete and the lessons absorbed we're reborn to try again.

It's easy to tie oneself into intellectual and emotional knots over questions like this. So I endorse your thought of living your life - according to your best understanding of what is "good", helpful, compassionate, loving, kind, generous.

 

[Muslim-UK]

The Earth is a blessing for us to be enjoyed and respect. It's certainly not hell by a long stretch of the imagination.

We are fundamentally good by nature. For as long as one is alive, the blessings of God continue to shower down. Pray and earn masses of good deeds, remember your Lord often and earn good deeds, smile at someone, yep you earn a good deed. Turn to your Lord often and earn good deeds, it's never ending. Fast in the Holy Month and all your minor sins from the past year, and the year to come are nullified. Cleanse yourself before prayer and it wipes away minor sins since your last prayer.

What all this means is, the one who strives and struggles in this life, makes time for God will have a guarantee of success in the hereafter. These blessings are open to all right up until death overcomes you.

 

[SabahTheLoner]

Good is what benefits us. Evil is what harms us. We would like to think we're always doing a favor, but we also can do huge disfavors. In fact it's not uncommon to do both at the same time.

 

[David1967]

"Are we fundamentally good or evil?"

Yes to both. We all have the capacity for both good and evil. Its up to us to choose which path to follow.

 

[MohammadPali]

I think we are fundamentally good, with a hint of temptations.

 

[Silverscale derg]

I started watching the series on Netflix called "The Good Place". It's about a woman who died and finds herself in 'heaven' by accident, because she was a bad person on earth. But it actually turns out this 'heaven' is false and is actually hell.

Now, when I watched it, I didn't like the message of it because it was saying that if you do more good than evil in your life then you go to heaven. The problem being that the absolute tiniest thing you do could be considered good or evil. Since I'm quite self-judgemental the show naturally affected me, and made me realise how selfish I really am, even when I actually thought I was good.

My Christian background came to me and I suddenly had that enlightening thought of "Ah! This is why Christians need Christ, because they feel fundamentally evil without his saving grace". The fall of man then makes more sense.

But it's not my belief. I am trying to shake it but it's making me confused. Are we fundamentally more good than evil? Is it possible to be perfect? Do we need redeeming? Or am I just a self-perfectionist due to bad self esteem and easily find fault with myself?

I mean, I don't do 'bad' things, like murder, deal drugs, steal, hurt people. But, I'm human and I know my intentions are not always pure. I am always looking out for N.o. 1. Do we need to strike a balance instead?

I always believed that people are good deep down. And that all people have equal amounts of good and evil in them but the stronger is the one they choose to feed.

Or is the whole concept of good and evil bogus anyway because we only do what our biological instincts tell us to do? Everything we do is ultimately to ensure the survival of the human race....

But perhaps our flesh really is corrupted and we need to be 'transformed' somehow to actually get into 'heaven' (if you believe it exists).... only problem is I can't imagine it's possible for a such a place to even exist. Otherwise it would strip us completely of what it means to be human?

I'm having an ethical dilemma. Opinions...? Maybe I should forget all this and just carry on with my life, lol.

One can not be strictly good, nor evil. Even my kind has an issue, we're predatory, we must eat meat but at the same time we good in our respect we pay for our meals as well as having a code not to kill kids, nor humans. The human one is because they're gross but that's besides the point. The phrase "as above so below" and the symbol that goes with it of baphamit or however it's spelled, the goat holding a dark moon as well as a light moon. Good can't be without evil, nor evil without good in the same way predators can't live without prey, nor can prey live (successfully) without predators.

The looking for "god" thing in my view is for those blind. Sure like a sheep you can follow the sheep in front without question right to slaughter, but if you open your eyes you will see your doom, maybe not yours personally but the earth.

Humans were made by a god that is evil in my eyes. One that killed millions because he made a mistake but he's the one that's self proclaimed "all knowing" surely he'd see it coming. The part of non human animals being lesser to humans makes me upset about that believe as well.

I can certainly tell the pure humans from the non pure humans (those with non human animal souls in them) from that statement, only pure humans would want to ensure the survival of humanity despite there being so many humans on the earth, only a human would kill predators or any creature not for food basically because they feel humans are superior, something I don't understand