Are we worthy?

[Master Vigil]

This is a concept that has been stuck with me for the past few months. Worth. I originally believed that worth was a total human made conception. The reason that when I go into my wallet, I pull out a 20 because it's worth more than a 5. Why? What a stupid notion that the same piece of material is worth more because of what's printed on it. Who decides worth?

This brought about a whole slew of inner meditations on money, consumerism, evil, illusions, and our "nature", when it comes to worth and our place in this world. In this day and age of consumerism, we truly are what we own. At least it appears that way. We are so attached to the ego, that we are kicking god out of our lives, and replacing him with "stuff". When it makes absolutely no sense because the world is so transient that if we keep relying on this physical "stuff" we will NEVER be fulfilled because everything in this physical world, rots, rusts, decays, dies, etc....

So if we finally accept that inner fulfillment is more important than this "stuff" we constantly try to fill our lives with, we try to fill it with god. Alright, here comes the hard part; It's like applying for a job.... Are we worthy? Employers decide how much your job is worth to them (how much they will pay you to do their work for them). You know your place, and you know it well. You know how to do your job, but you don't understand every single working element of your global fortune 500 company. This lack of knowledge means you are "unworthy" to be paid more. So to speak.

So what about god? As human beings we are the dumbest, densest, hypocritical beings on this planet. We try to understand things by using words, concepts, ideas, etc... When all they are are symbols trying to represent something else. It's like if you were at the intersection of 1st and main, and you asked me where 1st st was. Using words is like me saying, "Well, go straight down main st. until you hit 2nd street. Make a left at 2nd st and go up to magee ave. (Road parallel to main st.) make a left, keep going and then make a left at 1st street."

You're ALREADY THERE!! So in using these pointless useless words (like I'm doing now trying to reiterate my thoughts onto cyberspace ) We come NOWHERE close to understanding god. So in the same sense, are we "worthy" of "getting paid more" by god? Getting paid more being heaven, or salvation, or whatever. Again, what is worth, who or what decides worth, and are we worthy?

I know myself, I am certainly not worthy. I am the dumbest most hypocritical being I know. Perhaps I just judge myself too harshly but nevertheless that is how I feel. However, the more I get into this deep dark place in my soul, the more I feel closer to god. How weird? In Buddhism, it is in ridding the self of suffering that one finds emptiness and enlightenment. But it is in suffering that I find god. Am I worthy? Are any of us worthy?

 

[BucephalusBB]

We try to understand things by using words, concepts, ideas, etc... When all they are are symbols trying to represent something else.

:bow:
This must be the most beautifull quote I read in ages :yes:



But anyways, as atheist, does this mean I feel less the need to be worthy?
Or does it mean I have a larger feeling to need stuff?

 

[Master Vigil]

:bow:
This must be the most beautifull quote I read in ages :yes:

The sad part is it's true. What are we to do???

But anyways, as atheist, does this mean I feel less the need to be worthy?
Or does it mean I have a larger feeling to need stuff?

As an atheist, you're need to be worthy would be directed somewhere else. No less, nor more, just different direction.
I don't think it would reflect on your need for "stuff" fulfillment, more than any of us. Because no matter if you believe or not, we are still in this insane world of consumerism.

 

[ChristineES]

When there is no fulfillment in life, people use "things" substitute for it.

I think every human is hypocritical in some way. If not in religion, then some other way. People cry when they see hungry people on TV, yet when they see a homeless bum looking in the garbage for food, they look at him disdainfully. That homeless man is either insane or on drugs-including alcohol- he was once some mother's baby (there was a hymn about that once)- I feel sad when I see a person on drugs, on alcohol- it is a sad thing. This man is unable to help himself and we are unwilling or unable to help him. Sorry for going off on a tangent. (I was side tracked). There are other examples of hypocrisy every where.

People, as a whole, need to think about others and not be so self-centered. Instead of buying tons of things they don't need, why not give to charity? I could go on, but too much preaching can be irritating to a lot of people, so I will quit now.

 

[anders]

"Worthy" is a worthless concept. I can't imagine affixing price tags to other people or to myself. Some people are more equal than others, of course, like inventors of life-saving drugs or the like. But are they more worthy as humans? Who knows. Who judges, and how? Despite their contributions to humanity, they could have been perfect monsters to their families and acquaintances.

Once upon a time, I dreamt that I would accomplish something that would make my name slightly famous and remembered for at least a few generations. Now, I'm sufficiently happy when I think that I perhaps sometimes make a positive difference in some person's life, and that when I'm gone, some people might remember me as a fairly nice guy. That's worth to me.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

My own feeling (in a poetic sense) is that we are not worthy as such.

Last night I was looking at my feet and pondering the complexity of all the different cells working away, which are themselves made of atoms and sub atomic particles that expert scientists themselves feel their knowledge of is inadequate and inelegant.

I simply cannot comprehend the immensity of what is happening in my own body. Just this makes me feel that no, I am not worthy to understand nature (or God, etc.) Nevertheless it seems nature has gone to great expense to gift me with existence.

 

[michel]

I know myself, I am certainly not worthy. I am the dumbest most hypocritical being I know. Perhaps I just judge myself too harshly but nevertheless that is how I feel. However, the more I get into this deep dark place in my soul, the more I feel closer to god. How weird? In Buddhism, it is in ridding the self of suffering that one finds emptiness and enlightenment. But it is in suffering that I find god. Am I worthy? Are any of us worthy?

So I am not the only one..........:cover:

Your thoughts mirror mine; the fact that you ask the question "Am I worthy ?" means that you are on the path to "Worthiness".....

I believe that we are on a very long road; sometimes, through our acts, we make that road longer than it need be - sometimes, we take a short cut.

Until we can honestly - without humility, without Vanity (those two are deceptive friends) rid ourselves of the thought an concentration of anything material, we will still be walking up that very long road. Of course, you might come across some steps........)(

 

[Master Vigil]

My own feeling (in a poetic sense) is that we are not worthy as such.

Last night I was looking at my feet and pondering the complexity of all the different cells working away, which are themselves made of atoms and sub atomic particles that expert scientists themselves feel their knowledge of is inadequate and inelegant.

I simply cannot comprehend the immensity of what is happening in my own body. Just this makes me feel that no, I am not worthy to understand nature (or God, etc.) Nevertheless it seems nature has gone to great expense to gift me with existence.

It is odd how Jesus focused on the poor, the sinful, the sick, etc... to preach to. Why? Because they were not as learned and easier to sway? Or were they truly able to understand because of their lowly nature? Is it that the more "worthy" we are in life, the less "worthy" we are in death?

So I am not the only one..........:cover:

Your thoughts mirror mine; the fact that you ask the question "Am I worthy ?" means that you are on the path to "Worthiness".....

I believe that we are on a very long road; sometimes, through our acts, we make that road longer than it need be - sometimes, we take a short cut.

Until we can honestly - without humility, without Vanity (those two are deceptive friends) rid ourselves of the thought an concentration of anything material, we will still be walking up that very long road. Of course, you might come across some steps........)(

So often I think of St. Francis, who gave up everything to be like the birds in the air. And so often I think of Mother Theresa who in such agony, depression, and darkness, radiated with God's love. But then i look at the rich ministers on TV and see no holiness in them. I see a facade, I see happy people preaching words that roll off of their tongues so easily that just as easily they lose their potency . I don't see in them an actual holy, mystical, glory that should radiate from them.

But when I drive past a homeless person in Downtown Pittsburgh, I can see a radiating hunger; a hunger for food, for help, for love, for community, etc... But we all just drive past with our windows rolled up, trapped in our little man made boxes we call automobiles. And we go on living as if nothing is wrong. We don't want to be accountable for that homeless person. But in the end, we are. We are accountable for everyone around us. Because humans are naturally social creatures, we are meant to be with each other, we are meant to care for each other with total love, compassion, and glory.

This I am feeling more and more everyday. I am not worthy. I am not worthy. Please, have mercy on me.

 

[Random]

I believe we are worthy of knowing the full truth about our situation, existentially and every other way, but the difficulty comes with accepting the answer. Some are too proud, some willfully misunderstand, some too saddened, etc. The human failing is in love for the world.

 

[YmirGF]

This I am feeling more and more everyday. I am not worthy. I am not worthy. Please, have mercy on me.

Dan, Master VIgil (and everyone else reading this thread) you are all most worthy of being exactly where you are. You are the one who sets the goalposts or values and you are the one who endeavors to find fulfillment. It is imperative that you believe you are most worthy of the fruits of your labor or you will never realize those fruits as you will continually push them away from yourself -- because you are not worthy of them.

I feel for you Dan (and others here who agree in the worthlessness of the self) but there is much in front of you yet and its is yours if you lose your attachment to concepts of unworth. The game is yours if you want it to be, it is that simple and you are MOST worthy unless you BELIEVE you are not. You simply create your experience by hypnotising yourself into the sensation of or proof of your own sense of worthlessness. Flip the coin and take a plunge into the deep waters of your probable future. WIthout being patronizing Dan, you are still very young. At least you are thinking of things instead of just rolling along in oblivion. Reconsider your thinking because your thinking simply reinforces your perceptions that your thinking IS correct. Beware of Maya.

Take care, friend

Paul/YmirGF

 

[blackout]

Master Vigil...
I SO loved your post...
but the last paragraph made me so very very sad.

I wanted to say something....
but Paul/YmirGF said it for me.
and so wonderfully that I will only say "ditto"...

and frubal you both.

Flip the coin and take a plunge into the deep waters of your probable future.

You ARE Worthy! you are.

 

[Willamena]

You are worthy. Just as in your analogy, you're already there.

 

[Master Vigil]

Dan, Master VIgil (and everyone else reading this thread) you are all most worthy of being exactly where you are. You are the one who sets the goalposts or values and you are the one who endeavors to find fulfillment. It is imperative that you believe you are most worthy of the fruits of your labor or you will never realize those fruits as you will continually push them away from yourself -- because you are not worthy of them.

I feel for you Dan (and others here who agree in the worthlessness of the self) but there is much in front of you yet and its is yours if you lose your attachment to concepts of unworth. The game is yours if you want it to be, it is that simple and you are MOST worthy unless you BELIEVE you are not. You simply create your experience by hypnotising yourself into the sensation of or proof of your own sense of worthlessness. Flip the coin and take a plunge into the deep waters of your probable future. WIthout being patronizing Dan, you are still very young. At least you are thinking of things instead of just rolling along in oblivion. Reconsider your thinking because your thinking simply reinforces your perceptions that your thinking IS correct. Beware of Maya.

Take care, friend

Paul/YmirGF

I am starting to understand that being not worthy, is a good thing. At least, this is what the last few weeks of intense meditation and prayer is creating in me. It's an understanding that I am not my own maker, I am not the prime mover (what is, is of no concern at this point and time). I have to sit back, and accept that I am simply not that great. But this is not the end. Once we understand how little we know and how little we understand, then we begin to understand. Like the Zen master who kept filling his student's cup until it overflows and no more could fit in. We first must be empty. Empty not just of physical and material possessions, but of spiritual and psychological possessions. I'm speaking of pride, preconceived notions, expectations, symbolic understandings, what we think we are, what we think we know, how worthy we think we are, etc... When we truly can drop everything. Then our cup can start to fill up (so to speak).

but the last paragraph made me so very very sad.

Again, in Buddhism, ridding the self of suffering leads to enlightenment. But it is in suffering that I find god.

This thread reminds me of the Prayer of Padre Pio, the last to truly take part in the suffering of Christ through Stigmata:

" Stay with me, Lord, for it is necessary to have You present so that I do not forget You. You know how easily I abandon You. Stay with me, Lord, because I am weak and I need Your strength, that I may not fall so often.
Stay with me, Lord, for You are my life, and without You, I am without fervor.
Stay with me, Lord, for You are my light, and without You, I am in darkness.
Stay with me, Lord, to show me Your will.
Stay with me, Lord, so that I hear Your voice and follow You.
Stay with me, Lord, for I desire to love You very much, and always be in Your company.
Stay with me, Lord, if You wish me to be faithful to You.
Stay with me, Lord, for as poor as my soul is, I wish it to be a place of consolation for You, a nest of Love.
Stay with me, Jesus, for it is getting late and the day is coming to a close, and life passes, death, judgement, eternity approaches. It is necessary to renew my strength, so that I will not stop along the way and for that, I need You. It is getting late and death approaches. I fear the darkness, the temptations, the dryness, the cross, the sorrows. O how I need You, my Jesus, in this night of exile!
Stay with me tonight, Jesus, in life with all its dangers, I need You.
Let me recognize You as Your disciples did at the breaking of bread, so that the Eucharistic Communion be the light which disperses the darkness, the force which sustains me, the unique joy of my heart.
Stay with me, Lord, because at the hour of my death, I want to remain united to You, if not by Communion, at least by grace and love.
Stay with me, Jesus, I do not ask for divine consolation, because I do not merit it, but, the gift of Your Presence, oh yes, I ask this of You!
Stay with me, Lord, for it is You alone I look for. Your Love, Your Grace, Your Will, Your Heart, Your Spirit, because I love You and ask no other reward but to love You more and more.
With a firm love, I will love You with all my heart while on earth and continue to love You perfectly during all eternity.
​

Amen"

We can be worthy! We just need a little help.
​

 

[Popeyesays]

Of course we are worthy. At least until we MAKE ourselves unworthy. Mankind is created noble, we abase ourselves by our own actions.

Regards,
Scott

 

[blackout]

I am starting to understand that being not worthy, is a good thing. At least, this is what the last few weeks of intense meditation and prayer is creating in me. It's an understanding that I am not my own maker, I am not the prime mover (what is, is of no concern at this point and time). I have to sit back, and accept that I am simply not that great. But this is not the end. Once we understand how little we know and how little we understand, then we begin to understand. Like the Zen master who kept filling his student's cup until it overflows and no more could fit in. We first must be empty. Empty not just of physical and material possessions, but of spiritual and psychological possessions. I'm speaking of pride, preconceived notions, expectations, symbolic understandings, what we think we are, what we think we know, how worthy we think we are, etc... When we truly can drop everything. Then our cup can start to fill up (so to speak).

Again, in Buddhism, ridding the self of suffering leads to enlightenment. But it is in suffering that I find god.

This thread reminds me of the Prayer of Padre Pio, the last to truly take part in the suffering of Christ through Stigmata:

" Stay with me, Lord, for ...............................​

We can be worthy! We just need a little help. ​

ok. linguistical disconnect I think.
In StaceySpeak what you said was... "I am not of worth"...
or "I cannot "recieve"... because I am somehow "defective".
and what you MEANT was... "I am not "all that"!" :flirt:
"I am not the "master" of all the UniVerse!"

I agree with this outlook completely.
As long as we understand that we are CO-creators IN God....
and not the Capitol "RULERS" of all creation....
than we are free to SHINE in our self intrinsic WORTH
as eternal sons and daughters of God.

Unless that is...
we somehow think we are "defective" beings...
LESS THAN what we ACTUALLY are in God's Potential for us!

But We must reach out for that infinite potential in the secure faith...
that we ARE OF INFINITE WORTH... and value.


Just a side comment...
I used to be the most devout Roman Catholic you have ever seen.
Padre Pio was my very favorite male saint.
A kind of "patron" saint to me.

Yet after my change....
my walk out of the world....
I never "begged" God again.
Never.
Not once.
For anything.

"Stay with me Lord , for................."
(especially repeated over and over)....

implies by it's very nature...
that the "implorer" does not already KNOW...
that God IS EVER AND ALWAYS with them already.

I rather now prefer to say
(in my own common vernacular)...

Oh God!....
You KNOW how much I enjoy Your "divine"(awesome) and "glorious" (wonderful) company!
Thank you for sharing in your life with me!
You truly are the best!

Pray as if it has already been done. Right?

We ARE already there.

If only we could get our faces out of the map...
and see the treasure!

 

[Master Vigil]

Yes I never meant worthless.

 

[hannahrose1209]

I may suggest reading some Paul Tillich! He branches on some of the same thoughts!!

 

[Master Vigil]

Thank you Hannah, I will have to look into his work.

 

[Azakel]

Worth or worthless, this got me thinking, dang you M_V ^_^

When I do go into a darker side of myself, think of all the thing a can do or even that I know nothing I take this time to look inside me. And I do seem to became more spiritual, I won't say closer to God, because me God concept is at there. But when this happen I start to fall into depression, and I don't take meds for it, I can keep me self under control. So then I have start thing that I can do anything and that I am worth some..... everything? And it balances out. I get stuck in the middle.

 

[YmirGF]

I am starting to understand that being not worthy, is a good thing. At least, this is what the last few weeks of intense meditation and prayer is creating in me. It's an understanding that I am not my own maker, I am not the prime mover (what is, is of no concern at this point and time). I have to sit back, and accept that I am simply not that great. But this is not the end. Once we understand how little we know and how little we understand, then we begin to understand. Like the Zen master who kept filling his student's cup until it overflows and no more could fit in. We first must be empty. Empty not just of physical and material possessions, but of spiritual and psychological possessions. I'm speaking of pride, preconceived notions, expectations, symbolic understandings, what we think we are, what we think we know, how worthy we think we are, etc... When we truly can drop everything. Then our cup can start to fill up (so to speak).

Forgive me Dan, but it has been eons since I have thought along these lines. I suppose I hit it in my early 20's as well. If you understood what I mean by the multidimensional self you would understand the real answers to all your speculations. I do agree that you are making inroads in that you are now open to the perceptions of other far more advanced portions of Self that can begin to shine through. You have to understand that I am not a materialistic person and never have been, so it was never much of an issue for me. I figure I got that point a few lifetimes back, lol. I guess what I would advise is that you have as much compassion for the ego as you have for everything else. No, do not let it rule you like a jealous little tyrant that fears its own end, but rather, make it a friend that readily accepts that there is more to self than it has suspected before. Many people assume that this larger aspect of self is God and to an extent it indeed is, but only to an extent. Like "truth" it is relative to the perspective taken.

Again, in Buddhism, ridding the self of suffering leads to enlightenment. But it is in suffering that I find god.

Am I hearing this correct, lol? The reason why I ask, is that I was an avowed impersonalist who embraced the Buddha mind as much as I was able. Then, one day I began to notice something that impinged on my meditations. It didn't seem to be "of me" and was at first, just a presence. Is this perchance what you are encountering? Sorry if it is not but it is a bit odd when Taoists start talking about "god", lol.

We can be worthy! We just need a little help.

The thing is MV, that you have all the help you truly require and then some... right here, right now. Indeed, we can be most worthy, Dan, but only when we lose out attachment to punishments and rewards. At that point, it's "party time".​