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Are You A Communist?

Typist

Active Member
This thread goes out to fellow poster Red Economist who has shared a series of intelligent interesting posts on various subjects, including of course Marxism.

I'm beginning to wonder if I might be a closet communist. I'll explain more as we go.

As a quick place to begin, I've been self employed all my life and thus am by nature very receptive to free market economics. On the other hand, I'm really starting to wonder if big corporations aren't the real threat we face. And how does one deal with that if the big corporations succeed in buying the government?

Communism has a bad name for some very good historical reasons, so I'm not ready to come out of the closet yet. But I have the door cracked and am peeking out. How about you?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Has anyone read?....Animal Farm.
Would that be a fair metaphorical description of communism on the rise?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This thread goes out to fellow poster Red Economist who has shared a series of intelligent interesting posts on various subjects, including of course Marxism.

I'm beginning to wonder if I might be a closet communist. I'll explain more as we go.

As a quick place to begin, I've been self employed all my life and thus am by nature very receptive to free market economics. On the other hand, I'm really starting to wonder if big corporations aren't the real threat we face. And how does one deal with that if the big corporations succeed in buying the government?

Communism has a bad name for some very good historical reasons, so I'm not ready to come out of the closet yet. But I have the door cracked and am peeking out. How about you?

Thanks Typist. *takes a bow*

The violent nature of revolution and dictatorship is good reason to be skeptical and conservative; my advice is generally to read the history before the theory so you know what it actually looks like. Evolutionary Socialism is preferable as it involves fewer risks because it doesn't seek the revolutionary overthrow of the system but it may not be possible in the long-run because of how entrenched the ruling class is.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The approach that is the closest to that which I identify more with is Richard Wolff's Neo-Marxism (his basic approach is more along the lines of what Engels taught), and you can get some info here on him and what he feels should be done: Professor Richard D. Wolff | Economics Professor or Richard D. Wolff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His approach in a nutshell is that businesses should be mostly employee-owned, with local government input as a minority voter, and investors other than employees cannot be majority voters on the board.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Has anyone read?....Animal Farm.
Would that be a fair metaphorical description of communism on the rise?
In the west, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find an economist who advocates government ownership of most business. Wolff, whom I have briefly described above, much prefers a smaller and less intrusive national government.
 

Typist

Active Member
Evolutionary Socialism is preferable as it involves fewer risks because it doesn't seek the revolutionary overthrow of the system but it may not be possible in the long-run because of how entrenched the ruling class is.

Thanks Red, yes, that's what's dawning on me. The ruling class has purchased the government, so is making real change through the democratic process still possible?

Here's just the latest in a series of documentaries which are driving the point home. This one is called Pump, and it explains our relationship with oil and the oil companies in easy to access detail. This is a YouTube trailer, the full video is available on Netflix.


Did you know that Brazil has liberated itself from a dependence on oil, and we could do the same, but the oil companies and purchased government stand in the way?

Every car made in the past couple of decades can be adapted to run on methanol AND ethanol AND regular gas with a simple software patch. Methanol and ethanol can be made from readily available sources right here at home, and pretty much in any country. No need for foreign oil, or foreign oil wars. But, oops, it's illegal to hack your car's software.

Did you know we ship a billion dollars a day out of the U.S to pay for foreign oil, money that could be spent with our own citizens right here at home, giving a huge boost to the economy and employment etc?

Did you know we spend about 10 times more protecting oil sources in the Middle East than we spend on the actual oil?

The video is full of things like this, and clearly demonstrates how we do huge things that are not in our interest for no reason other than building corporate profits. It's been going on for decades, and the government is either unwilling or powerless to change it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Would that be a fair metaphorical description of communism on the rise?
The USSR, yes, but not communism in general. Snow Ball, who got things going in the right direction, is based on Russian Marxist Leon Trotsky.
In the west, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find an economist who advocates government ownership of most business. Wolff, whom I have briefly described above, much prefers a smaller and less intrusive national government.
That's the great irony of Western thought on communism, particularly Marxism. They all think it's a very strong proponent of a strong centralized government that can tell you exactly how to live, when in reality the full fruition on Marx's ideas do not include the state.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
Communism demands coercion and compulsion. Absolute capitalism demands absolutely nothing of the like--it believes in the autonomy of each and every individual. Fascism naturally arises out of communism--which poses another problem with communism: human nature which is created, not by an economic system, but is sewn onto our hearts, will never allow communism to work.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Communism demands coercion and compulsion. Absolute capitalism demands absolutely nothing of the like--it believes in the autonomy of each and every individual. Fascism naturally arises out of communism--which poses another problem with communism: human nature which is created, not by an economic system, but is sewn onto our hearts, will never allow communism to work.
Neo-Marxism does not fit the position you cite above, and it works through a democratic process. Also, your words on capitalism has been shown to be wrong, and on different counts. Nor does fascism somehow automatically arise out of communism, so that's wrong. Nor is any economic system endemic to our human nature, although communism gets far closer than the other economic forms. Other than this, you post was perfect. :D
 

Typist

Active Member
Does democratic rule of law really work?

The tobacco companies kill about 400,000 people a year, just in America, and it appears no one can stop them.

At what point do we realize that it's insane to allow big corporations to kill that many people routinely decade after decade, and that we are powerless to do anything about it within democracy, because they now have enough profits to buy the government?

How many people do the tobacco companies have to kill before it dawns on us that we ought to simply track down the tobacco company executives, shoot them in the back of the head, and nationalize all their assets?

Tobacco could still be made available to serve those hopelessly addicted. But why should the corporate killers be allowed to walk away scot free with billions in their pockets?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Communism has a bad name for some very good historical reasons, so I'm not ready to come out of the closet yet. But I have the door cracked and am peeking out. How about you?

There's an old joke about the difference between capitalism and communism. Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's the other way around.

I don't think communism and capitalism are the only two games in town, so I don't think we have to choose either one or the other.

I think there might be a middle ground somewhere between communism and capitalism, although when judging the history of communism and how it came about in other countries, it's also a good idea to look at the specific circumstances and the overall histories of the countries in question. Extremism prevails when more people are pushed to the extreme. I don't think it's gotten to that point yet here in America, although it's hard to say what the future may hold.

I'm probably more along the lines of a socialist/progressive. Some of my views might overlap with that of a communist in that we might see the world similarly. Part of the problem with the way communism and socialism have been perceived in America is that it never really got a truly fair test or examination, since it was almost always associated with allegiance to a foreign power.

There's still the lingering stench left over from the Cold War and various Red Scares we've had in the past that there can't be any real debate about the pluses and minuses of our economic system without a certain level of red-baiting. I've encountered numerous pro-capitalist ideologues who take on a decidedly "love it or leave it" and "those who are not with us are against us" attitude, which makes any reasonable public debate an uphill battle.

My main worry at this point is that if nothing can be done to reverse the trends of malaise, political gridlock, internal rot, and the corruption (as you mention corporations buying the government), the system itself will function more and more at a diminished capacity coupled with greater internal confusion and dissension. That could lead to a rise in extremist activity from both ends of the spectrum. At that point, there may only be two choices left.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
I prefer the term socialist. Communism has acquired too many negative connotations, and suggests blind or at least rigid adherence to Marx and his intellectual successors.

I actually believe that the market economy is likely to unwind itself as technology improves our ability to use information in order to allocate resources, and improves our underlying ability to produce with declining use of labor. We are seeing this play out with automation as well. While previous improvements in technology tended to generate and destroy jobs in roughly equal numbers, at least over time, I think that we are actually looking at changes that will simply eliminate lots of work. There will still be a role for human labor for the foreseeable future, but it will be a labor-light economy.

The transition to a just division of the fruits of this technological advancement is the really difficult part, and not at all inevitable. That is where I suspect the revolutionary component could come into play, but not for a long while.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Animal Farm, as I recall, worked well till the greedy, despotic, anti-socialist pigs usurped the system.

I see myself as more socialist than communist. When the commons - those services used and needed by everyone (police, fire, education, healthcare &c) - are publicly owned, we get their services wholesale and their organization and financing is transparent (or should be). Discretionary goods and services can be left to the free market.
I'm also a fan of co-operatives - businesses run by the workers, whose profits are shared by same.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's not accurate to assume Marx is the godfather or founder of communism. It was around before him, and it was a London-based communist party that approached him and Engels to write a manifesto for them.
Viewing Marx in such way, that he invented communism, is as erroneous as believing Darwin established the idea of evolution.

Animal Farm, as I recall, worked well till the greedy, despotic, anti-socialist pigs usurped the system.
True. And in the end the greed anti-socialist pigs were shown to be indistinguishable from the greedy farmers.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good point, Shadow. The Hutterites were communist way back in the 16th century, and remain so today, and there are indications of Hebrew communes two thousand years ago.
I'm sure there are plenty of other historic examples in the anthropological literature.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
For some economic activities I think it's best that the workers (the ones specifically doing the work) control the means of production. For some others it's best that the industry is owned and operated by the public (not the workers). That's about as far as I go with it. Many if not most areas of economic activity should remain within the market.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Communism demands coercion and compulsion. Absolute capitalism demands absolutely nothing of the like--it believes in the autonomy of each and every individual. Fascism naturally arises out of communism--which poses another problem with communism: human nature which is created, not by an economic system, but is sewn onto our hearts, will never allow communism to work.

In Liberal political theory, "fascism" is not the product of government but a potential in human nature. This dates back to Hobbes leviathan in which he postulated that the natural state of man was anarchy in which "life was brutish, cruel and short" because everyone was screwing over everyone else. The idea of the social contract supposedly came from people surrendering some portion of their freedom to achieve collective stability, particuarly the capacity for violence based on the principle of non-aggression. The attraction of liberalism is that competition in the market place disperes economic power, and limited constitutional government disperes political power. By doing so, so it is cliamed, an individuals capacity for selfishness is cancelled out by competitive behaviour through this social arrangement. So really, people are only "free" under liberalism is so far as they can compete with one another.

The human nature argument is a really important one since if human nature cannot change, any concentration of economic and political power takes off the breaks to man's worst ambitions and you end up with a "totalitarian" system of government. So "fascism" does not arise out of increased government power- rather the power of the government gives people the ability to pursue their own selfish ends. In other words, people are "naturally" totalitarian when given the oppurtunity. Fascism is the tryanny of one; Liberalism is the tryanny of many disguised by competition. If human nature does exist liberals are just as fascist as communists because it is universal. liberals are fascists waiting to happen, or as Lord acton put it "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

The contradiction of capitalism is that the scientific, economic and technological progress increases expoentiually, whilst moral and political progress "lags"; this can be resolved by resorting to fascism, anarchy, or by communism. The idea that human nature is inherently selfish is a product of theology, and virtually eqivilent to the 'soul'; the idea that human selfisness is innate comes from the concept of original sin. it does not represent a scientific (or more accurately, materialist) understanding of man's nature, nor his moral capacities and limits. consequently, arguments regarding human nature do not present a real picture of what human beings as individuals are capable of, or what kind of society we could create. The idea that capitalism is natural is eqivilent to saying it is because "god says so". Communism rests on the argument that human beings can experience "moral progress" through increased scientific knowledge of human behaviour and motivations and that behaviour can be changed by education and consciousness self-mastery. Communism is an attempt to apply such knowledge to running society. Because this knowledge is imperfect, communism does and has historically degenerated into something closely resembling fascism and it remains a danger in any future attempt to build a communist society. But it is not inevitable because moral progress is possible.

My main worry at this point is that if nothing can be done to reverse the trends of malaise, political gridlock, internal rot, and the corruption (as you mention corporations buying the government), the system itself will function more and more at a diminished capacity coupled with greater internal confusion and dissension. That could lead to a rise in extremist activity from both ends of the spectrum. At that point, there may only be two choices left.

This is actually the thing which keeps pushing me further and further left. It seems that the ruling class is testing the capitalist system to it's limits and is oblivious to them. Human beings (and the planet) can only take so much before things start to unravel.

Did you know that Brazil has liberated itself from a dependence on oil, and we could do the same, but the oil companies and purchased government stand in the way?

I didn't actually; you might want to look up Cuba's "Special Period" after the collapse of the USSR when it lost access to it's Oil Supply. I came accross it in reference to scenarios concerning peak oil. it was tough but they did eventually get through it.

The ruling class has purchased the government, so is making real change through the democratic process still possible?

honestly, I don't know but I hope so. The road to reform and revolution are the same by the mass mobilisation of people, so we could work to reform the system and by doing so actually prepare the ground for overthrowing it. Ultimately, Democratic Socialism and Communism differ only in the destination and to some extent the speed and methods to get there.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Does democratic rule of law really work?

The tobacco companies kill about 400,000 people a year, just in America, and it appears no one can stop them.

At what point do we realize that it's insane to allow big corporations to kill that many people routinely decade after decade, and that we are powerless to do anything about it within democracy, because they now have enough profits to buy the government?

How many people do the tobacco companies have to kill before it dawns on us that we ought to simply track down the tobacco company executives, shoot them in the back of the head, and nationalize all their assets?

Tobacco could still be made available to serve those hopelessly addicted. But why should the corporate killers be allowed to walk away scot free with billions in their pockets?


In a free market society no one forces anyone to stick the vile things in their faces. In a communistic society the ruling entity(s) would deny them the right to be stupid in the first place.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Good point, Shadow. The Hutterites were communist way back in the 16th century, and remain so today, and there are indications of Hebrew communes two thousand years ago.
I'm sure there are plenty of other historic examples in the anthropological literature.
It goes back probably several million years, and was the dominant economic form up until the formation of civilizations, empires, and states only several thousand years ago.

In most hunter & gathering societies, based on comparisons of bands studied in historical times, if you shot a deer, that deer is not yours-- it's the band's. If I have a leg that's been gored, you help me until I can get back on my feet. This relationship was almost universal as far as we can tell.

Therefore, to be a communist is to be a human. ;)
 
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