Are you a liar?

[Altfish]

Only if there's an alternative judge!

I don't believe your judge exists, so there are many judges that will prove to be better

 

[Redemptionsong]

A God of love? Not hardly. How could your loving God allow an estimated 11 million people (including 6 million of his own chosen people) to be murdered in cold blood by the Nazis and do nothing to stop it? How could your God of love allow countless people to be brutally murdered, sexually assaulted (rape, molestation), abused, and die of deadly diseases and viruses? Why does your God turn a blind eye to all the violence and human suffering in the world, and he does absolutely nothing to intervene and stop it?

Finally, where was your God of love when I was being abused (physically, psychologically, sexually) and often beaten to an inch of my life while I was growing up? And for the record, I believed in your God of love when I was a child, and I frantically prayed to him for years begging him to save me from the abuse and pain I was suffering. But your God of love obviously didn't care about me because I suffered all that horrific abuse for 13 1/2 years. The abuse didn't stop until I confronted my abusers face to face shortly after I turned 18. Your God of love couldn't be bothered to save me from being abused when I was growing up, and he's obviously not concerned about all the countless innocent children around the world who suffer abuse at the hands of human monsters.

Where is your (all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present) loving and merciful God, and why does he allow all the brutal violence and immeasurable human suffering in the world? And please don't blame his creation (humanity or Lucifer). Don't you think that the all-knowing, all-powerful CREATOR is personally responsible? He has infinite power and infinite knowledge, and his creation does not.

The NT is clear about the Holy Spirit, the fruit of which is described in these words, 'love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance'.

In opposition to the fruit of the Spirit of God we have, 'Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:' [Gal.5]

I'm sorry that you've been treated badly, but l think it's wrong to blame the Lord. Jesus is the Lord, l believe, and it's evident from the scriptures, and indwelling Holy Spirit, that Jesus is the righteousness of God.

Can you tell me of anything that Jesus said, or did, that does not convey his compassion for mankind, or his righteousness?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes.

Does belief in one God not also mean that there is one absolute, objective, truth?

 

[Rival]

Does belief in one God not also mean that there is one absolute, objective, truth?

It depends what you consider truth. I have a very strict definition of truth with is synonymous with 'fact'. I'm going to need more from you to understand what you mean by 'truth' here. You also seem to be implying that belief in many Gods means there needn't be absolute, objective truth, which doesn't logically follow. So I really need more information.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

My God is the true God since my God said so and everyone else is a liar.

Right...

Christians like to claim that Christianity is the only true religion in the world, but they can't even agree with each other about what the Bible actually teaches. Some Christians claim that salvation in Christ is unconditional (once saved, always saved), while other Christian claim that salvation is conditional, and a person can lose their salvation. And ironically, all these Christians use multiple Bible verses to justify their belief about salvation. Christians also bitterly bicker with each other over what the Bible teaches about baptism. Some Christians claim that baptism is a requirement for salvation, but other devout Christians claim it isn't because they say salvation is by faith alone, and it isn't earned by good works. Not only do Christians consistently argue with each other about whether baptism is a requirement for salvation or not, but they also argue about what a proper baptism entails. Some Christians claim that a person must be fully immersed in water to be baptized, while other Christians claim that a person can be sprinkled with water to be baptized. Long story short, Christians are deeply divided and dissension is historically common with them. That's why we have Protestants galore (with hundreds of denominations and different biblical interpretations), Roman Catholics (who are taught that Protestants can't acquire salvation outside the Catholic Church), and there are also the Orthodox and Anglican.

 

[Rival]

Christians like to claim that Christianity is the only true religion in the world, but they can't even agree with each other about what the Bible actually teaches. Some Christians claim that salvation in Christ is unconditional (once saved, always saved), while other Christian claim that salvation is conditional, and a person can lose their salvation. And ironically, all these Christians use multiple Bible verses to justify their preferred belief about salvation. Christians also bicker with each other over what the Bible teaches about baptism. Some Christians claim that baptism is a requirement for salvation, but other Christians claim it isn't because they say salvation is by faith alone, and it isn't earned by good works. Not only do Christians argue with each other about whether baptism is a requirement for salvation or not, but they also argue about what a proper baptism entails. Some Christians claim that a person must be fully immersed in water to be baptized, while other Christians claim that a person can be sprinkled with water to be baptized. Long story short, Christians are deeply divided and dissension is historically common with them. That's why we have Protestants galore (with hundreds of denominations and different biblical interpretations), Roman Catholics (who are taught that Protestants can't acquire salvation outside the Catholic Church), and there are the Orthodox and Anglican.

Yes, I'm deeply familiar with Christianity and I grasp where the OP is coming from. I don't have disdain for Christianity and their intrafaith arguments are really none of my business. I find Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox doctrines and theology quite well thought out when one looks at them and considers their internal consistency. I have most trouble with Protestants, to be honest, and have never really argued with Catholics or Orthodox.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

The NT is clear about the Holy Spirit, the fruit of which is described in these words, 'love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance'.

In opposition to the fruit of the Spirit of God we have, 'Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:' [Gal.5]

I'm sorry that you've been treated badly, but l think it's wrong to blame the Lord. Jesus is the Lord, l believe, and it's evident from the scriptures, and indwelling Holy Spirit, that Jesus is the righteousness of God.

Can you tell me of anything that Jesus said, or did, that does not convey his compassion for mankind, or his righteousness?

If Jesus Christ is God (and the Son of God), then he is also all-powerful, all-knowing and ever-present, which means he also had the divine power to stop the abuse and pain I suffered for 13 1/2 years. The Bible says that Jesus was with God in the beginning and all things were created through him. Jesus, the son of God, had foreknowledge that the world would go to hell in a hand basket, but like God the Father, he turned a blind eye to all the brutal violence and all the human suffering. Furthermore, he allowed himself to be brutally sacrificed by God the Father in order to clean up the horrific mess that God initially made when he created the world.

As I've mentioned before in other threads, according to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If God has infinite knowledge and wisdom (omniscient) and infinite power (omnipotent), and he is present everywhere simultaneously (omnipresent), then he had foreknowledge that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation with the apple, and they would disobey him. In other words, the fall of humanity was foreknown by God, and he allowed it to happen. The Bible claims that God knows our innermost being, and he knew us before we were born (Psalm 139:13-16). Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he also knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made, and the decisions we will make in the future. If God created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple from the Tree of Life, which resulted with them taking a bite of the apple and disobeying God, then why did he hold them responsible for their sin? Furthermore, if God created mankind with the full knowledge of the impending fall into sin and disobedience against him, then why does he hold humans responsible for their sins?

Why would a loving and merciful God condemn unbelieving humans to an eternal hell of torture for humanity falling into sin when it was completely out of their control? God obviously has foreknowledge of future events because according to Genesis 3:15, he planned to sacrifice Jesus thousands of years before it happened. It means that he deliberately planned for Adam and Eve to fall into temptation, he deliberately planned to curse the rest of humanity for Adam and Eve disobeying him, and he deliberately had a plan to correct this problem by brutally sacrificing his only son. That's not a loving God. That is a sadistic and psychopathic God.

 

[Redemptionsong]

To lie means to intentionally, knowingly say something false. Many people in the world honestly do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Even if they're wrong, that doesn't make them liars.

What kind of unjust deity would punish people for the thought crime of honestly believing/not believing something?

To deny that Jesus is the Christ one must have some knowledge of Jesus, and also what is meant by the title 'Christ'. Is that not fair?

 

[Left Coast]

To deny that Jesus is the Christ one must have some knowledge of Jesus, and also what is meant by the title 'Christ'. Is that not fair?

One can have beliefs about Jesus that are not true and honestly believe them. Or honestly not believe things about Jesus that are true. Right?

So someone can have some beliefs about Jesus, and know what the word "Christ" means, and honestly not believe Jesus is the Messiah. So those people are not "liars," even if it turns out they're wrong.

So again, what kind of abhorrent deity would punish someone for that thought crime?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What kind of unjust deity would punish people for the thought crime of honestly believing/not believing something?

That is a sadistic psychopathic barbaric bloodthirsty genocidal God, who ordered his chosen people to mercilessly slaughter the people of other nations for their land. For example, the God of the Bible ordered the Israelites to wipe the Amalekites off the face of the Earth (Deuteronomy 25:17; Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2-3). He ordered them to kill every man, woman, child, infant, and all their animals. The God of the Bible callously killed a man and his wife for lying to the Apostle Peter (Acts 5:5-10). The God of the Bible also committed worldwide genocide after he got ticked off about how his creation, human beings, were deplorably behaving exactly how he created them to be. The God of the Bible personally killed people, and he ordered his chosen people to mercilessly kill other people in cold blood, so they could take possession of land that was promised to them by this God. In light of all this (and more regarding God's atrocious behavior toward mankind), I personally think it's immensely misguided for Christians to claim that their God is a loving, merciful God. I feel wretched when I think of all the years I believed in this savagely cruel and murderous God.

 

[Left Coast]

I feel wretched when I think of all the years I believed in this savagely cruel and murderous God.

I can empathize with that feeling, but I don't see you that way. If you're like most Christians/ex-Christians I know, you were likely indoctrinated into your beliefs from a young age and/or not even told about many of those awful things up front.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I can empathize with that feeling, but I don't see you that way. If you're like most Christians/ex-Christians I know, you were likely indoctrinated into your beliefs from a young age and/or not even told about many of those awful things up front.

You're correct because I was never told when I was a child. I read the Bible when I was a teenager and for many years as an adult, but I tried to ignore all the horrific things I read about God. If I asked other Christians about what I read, then I was either told that it's wrong for me to question God (and a sin), and I don't have a right, or Christians would tell me that they don't understand it either, but they have faith that God is good, loving and merciful. I was told that God has his reasons why things happen the way they do, and we mere humans aren't supposed to know his reasons yet. We're supposed to go along with whatever happens, and we shouldn't question God. I was told that I had to have faith that God knows what's best for me, but I was severely abused while growing up. And when I asked how being abused like that was best for me, they couldn't answer. I was told that God didn't stop the abuse while I was growing up because I didn't have enough faith in him. I was also told that I'm a cursed soul and God hates me.

 

[Left Coast]

You're correct because I was never told when I was a child. I heard the Bible when I was a teenager and for many years as an adult, but I tried to ignore all the horrific things I read about God. If I asked other Christians about what I read, then I was either told that it's wrong for me to question God (and a sin), and I don't have a right, or Christians would tell me that they don't understand it either, but they have faith that God is good, loving and merciful. I was told that God has his reasons why things happen the way they do, and we mere humans aren't supposed to know his reasons yet. We're supposed to go along with whatever happens, and we shouldn't question God.

All the more reason you should not see yourself as a wretch for your former beliefs. The emotional manipulation for you not to question was strong.

 

[Rival]

All the more reason you should not see yourself as a wretch for your former beliefs. The emotional manipulation for you not to question was strong.

It's a shame because that's not the attitude I find here in Europe. Such religious brainwashing would be considered cultish here and uncommon. Critical editions of the Bible with critical footnotes are welcomed by Christians. I'm not saying we haven't our share of closed minds, but it's definitely not something I come across often.

 

[Left Coast]

It's a shame because that's not the attitude I find here in Europe. Such religious brainwashing would be considered cultish here and uncommon. Critical editions of the Bible with critical footnotes are welcomed by Christians. I'm not saying we haven't our share of closed minds, but it's definitely not something I come across often.

That probably explains why Christianity is declining there and is more of a cultural thing for most folks.

 

[Rival]

That probably explains why Christianity is declining there and is more of a cultural thing for most folks.

One of my local vicars was a nuclear physicist, lol.

 

[Left Coast]

One of my local vicars was a nuclear physicist, lol.

And I'm betting s/he had no problems with evolution, either!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Christ deniers really have no rock to stand on when 'truth' becomes a victim, as happens in war. Where is the hope of justice if there is no God to hear your cry? If your daughter is raped and murdered by soldiers, or your son tortured, tied and shot in the back of the head, how do you respond? Hate and seek revenge? Add your vitriol to the great hell of war? Seek justice from courts that may never provide justice? Give up on life itself, with no hope of glory?

Of course not. The only rational thing to do is assume - for no particular reason - that an invisible magic god and his invisible magic son, along with their army of invisible magic angels, will fix all of our problems.

 

[Rival]

That probably explains why Christianity is declining there and is more of a cultural thing for most folks.

I think a lot of folks feel more comfortable redefining Christianity and reinterpreting scripture, as well. What I've learned in studying Middle English is that Mediaeval folks certainly had no problems expanding on scriptural passages and blurring the lines between biblical quotes, saints' myths, and their own homilies. One has the feeling that the Mediaeval preacher is saying, 'Well, so-and-so may as well have said...' and are constantly re-interpreting Biblical passages in line with their own times. Soteriology was debated too, and a new theory gained prominence in the 1100s. I think this legacy helps. The US has an unfortunate Puritan heritage, which was anathema to Mediaeval thought.

 

[Rival]

And I'm betting s/he had no problems with evolution, either!

I doubt he had.