Are you a liar?

[Left Coast]

I think a lot of folks feel more comfortable redefining Christianity and reinterpreting scripture, as well. What I've learned in studying Middle English is that Mediaeval folks certainly had no problems expanding on scriptural passages and blurring the lines between biblical quotes, saints' myths, and their own homilies. One has the feeling that the Mediaeval preacher is saying, 'Well, so-and-so may as well have said...' and are constantly re-interpreting Biblical passages in line with their own times. Soteriology was debated too, and a new theory gained prominence in the 1100s. I think this legacy helps. The US has an unfortunate Puritan heritage, which was anathema to Mediaeval thought.

Agreed! It is ironic that medieval Christians were often much less literalistic in their interpretation of the Bible than modern Christian fundamentalists are.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Reading this I also thought of how the Bible teaches all are liars( see Psalms 116:11 ). What do you think John means in 1 John 2:22 by calling them liars?

I think that anyone who says that Jesus Christ is not 'God with us' is making God a liar. [Isaiah 7:14; Matt.1:23] Jesus Christ did everything necessary to demonstrate that he was God dwelling amongst men on earth.

The prophets proclaimed Jesus Christ's coming, and to deny prophecy is to say that God's word, which is also Spirit, is not the truth.

Scripture does tell us that all men are sinners, and thus 'liars' [Psalm 116:11], but accepting one's sinfulness and receiving salvation in Christ, is the way to shed the lies! (To my understanding!)

Ultimately, Jesus Christ is a divider. He divides mankind into two camps. Those that are with him, and those that are against him. At judgment, there is no 'fence' to sit on!

 

[Rival]

Agreed! It is ironic that medieval Christians were often much less literalistic in their interpretation of the Bible than modern Christian fundamentalists are.

Honestly!

 

[Redemptionsong]

I don't believe your judge exists, so there are many judges that will prove to be better

You don't have to believe it, for it to be true!

As a humanist, you are totally reliant on the goodness of the present world. Yet, by espousing relative values, you make the possibility of any kind of justice impossible. Justice is based on law that has to be agreed by people; and since relativism states that there is no absolute standard of truth, such a hope of agreement disappears. Your idea of justice will not be someone else's idea of justice.

When a person has faith in one God, they have an authority above. This makes justice, and mercy, meaningful.

 

[Psalm23]

I think that anyone who says that Jesus Christ is not 'God with us' is making God a liar. [Isaiah 7:14; Matt.1:23] Jesus Christ did everything necessary to demonstrate that he was God dwelling amongst men on earth.

The prophets proclaimed Jesus Christ's coming, and to deny prophecy is to say that God's word, which is also Spirit, is not the truth.

Scripture does tell us that all men are sinners, and thus 'liars' [Psalm 116:11], but accepting one's sinfulness and receiving salvation in Christ, is the way to shed the lies! (To my understanding!)

Ultimately, Jesus Christ is a divider. He divides mankind into two camps. Those that are with him, and those that are against him. At judgment, there is no 'fence' to sit on!

I'm wondering about the possibility John was speaking of some people who had lived back in his days instead of it applying to people from each generation afterwards. Could it be possible he was calling some people in his generation liars?

 

[Altfish]

You don't have to believe it, for it to be true!

As a humanist, you are totally reliant of the goodness of the present world. Yet, by espousing relative values, you make the possibility of any kind of justice impossible. Justice is based on law that has to be agreed by people; and since relativism states that there is no absolute standard of truth, such a hope of agreement disappears. Your idea of justice will not be someone else's idea of justice.

When a person has faith in one God, they have an authority above. This makes justice, and mercy, meaningful.

And if you believe it, it doesn't make it true.
Since there is only the 'present world' I am correct to be totally reliant on it.
What evidence do you have for your belief?

 

[VoidCat]

Out of curiosity, what Lucifer do you mean?

It's complicated.

Lucifer is typically seen as a title not a name.

The Lucifers I worship are both Lucifer the demon and Samael. Most oftenly both are associated with Christianity and with the bible. However I don't believe him to be like how Christianity teaches or in the bible. I believe this character to have been created by human consiousness and by belief rather then a deity that has always existed.
I also worship the Roman deity Lucifer which has no connection to the Christian God. I believe all 3 of them to be aspects of the same deity.

I don't even know if the Christian God exists.

 

[Spiderman]

My God is the true God since my God said so and everyone else is a liar.

Right...

Not to mention, the OP sounds more than a little hostile towards or at least an insult to those who adhere to Judaism.

 

[Spiderman]

Yes, I'm deeply familiar with Christianity and I grasp where the OP is coming from. I don't have disdain for Christianity and their intrafaith arguments are really none of my business. I find Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox doctrines and theology quite well thought out when one looks at them and considers their internal consistency. I have most trouble with Protestants, to be honest, and have never really argued with Catholics or Orthodox.

You would make a better God than the one portrayed in the OP , who condemns and judges non Christians as being "liars", and Anti-christs!

Even if a person has mistakes in their Theology, if they are following their conscience, how can the OP allude to some idea or judgement that Jews, Pagans, Buddhists, Hindus (why can't Christians be more like @JustGeorge ?), wiccans, Shintoists, native American Shamans, Voduns, and beyond, are all "liars!", because of alleged "mistaken" Theology. Really?

Unless I am misunderstanding the OP, it strikes me as very insulting, judgemental, condemning, and alluding to those who deny the Divinity of Christ as "Anti-christs"?? And liars?

Thank you OP, for giving people reason not to be Christian.

 

[Left Coast]

You don't have to believe it, for it to be true!

As a humanist, you are totally reliant of the goodness of the present world. Yet, by espousing relative values, you make the possibility of any kind of justice impossible. Justice is based on law that has to be agreed by people; and since relativism states that there is no absolute standard of truth, such a hope of agreement disappears. Your idea of justice will not be someone else's idea of justice.

When a person has faith in one God, they have an authority above. This makes justice, and mercy, meaningful.

All that it takes for that supposedly absolute standard for moral values to fall apart at a practical level is for someone to simply say: no, God doesn't think that's immoral. He thinks that's perfectly fine. Then what? You just have humans arguing with each other by proxy about what's moral and what isn't, using what God supposedly thinks about the issue as a go-between. Non-theists just cut out the middle man since he's useless to solve the moral problem anyway.

 

[Spiderman]

The evangelist John asks a very challenging question in his first epistle (1 John 2:22). He asks, 'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

He goes on to say, 'He is an anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:'

Strong words from a man who preached a God of love!

But, how does one arrive at the position that a man is a liar if he denies that Jesus is Christ? I guess the opening premise is that God is Truth [Deut. 32:4 etc]. From here one can reasonably deduce that God's Word is true, and that Christ, coming from God, is the Word of God [Rev. 19:13]. If this be the case, then a denial of Christ is a denial of truth [John 14:6]. To deny truth is to make truth a lie. Is this, therefore, the unforgivable sin?

Christ deniers really have no rock to stand on when 'truth' becomes a victim, as happens in war. Where is the hope of justice if there is no God to hear your cry? If your daughter is raped and murdered by soldiers, or your son tortured, tied and shot in the back of the head, how do you respond? Hate and seek revenge? Add your vitriol to the great hell of war? Seek justice from courts that may never provide justice? Give up on life itself, with no hope of glory?

I'm with Paul, who said, 'For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.' [Phil.1:21]

I believe Jesus is a lamb of God, whose sacrifice and suffering and death takes away the sins of the world, and atones for sin.

I believe the lambs offered up as sin offerings in the old testament, prefigured the crucifixion.

BUt honestly, your post kind of disgusts me.

It condemns many people that I love and cherish, people with much love, humility, and charity, and Scripture says "God is love".

Many of these people have sacrificed and suffered a lot for the greater good, and I love the Hindu Gandhi, believing he was noble minded , a good person, and in Heaven.

There are souls I believe are in heaven, who I bless , and ask that they pray for and bless me.

Am I a liar?

 

[Spiderman]

I mean, if my Theology , traditions, or beliefs, are at odds with yours, am I a liar?

 

[Redemptionsong]

If Jesus Christ is God (and the Son of God), then he is also all-powerful, all-knowing and ever-present, which means he also had the divine power to stop the abuse and pain I suffered for 13 1/2 years. The Bible says that Jesus was with God in the beginning and all things were created through him. Jesus, the son of God, had foreknowledge that the world would go to hell in a hand basket, but like God the Father, he turned a blind eye to all the brutal violence and all the human suffering. Furthermore, he allowed himself to be brutally sacrificed by God the Father in order to clean up the horrific mess that God initially made when he created the world.

As I've mentioned before in other threads, according to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). If God has infinite knowledge and wisdom (omniscient) and infinite power (omnipotent), and he is present everywhere simultaneously (omnipresent), then he had foreknowledge that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation with the apple, and they would disobey him. In other words, the fall of humanity was foreknown by God, and he allowed it to happen. The Bible claims that God knows our innermost being, and he knew us before we were born (Psalm 139:13-16). Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he also knows our every thought and every decision that we have ever made, and the decisions we will make in the future. If God created Adam and Eve with the full knowledge that they would be tempted by the apple from the Tree of Life, which resulted with them taking a bite of the apple and disobeying God, then why did he hold them responsible for their sin? Furthermore, if God created mankind with the full knowledge of the impending fall into sin and disobedience against him, then why does he hold humans responsible for their sins?

Why would a loving and merciful God condemn unbelieving humans to an eternal hell of torture for humanity falling into sin when it was completely out of their control? God obviously has foreknowledge of future events because according to Genesis 3:15, he planned to sacrifice Jesus thousands of years before it happened. It means that he deliberately planned for Adam and Eve to fall into temptation, he deliberately planned to curse the rest of humanity for Adam and Eve disobeying him, and he deliberately had a plan to correct this problem by brutally sacrificing his only son. That's not a loving God. That is a sadistic and psychopathic God.

If you've made this argument before, then I'm surprised that you haven't also heard a scriptural response!

Adam and Eve were commanded (on penalty of death) not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil [Genesis 2:17]. They were 'tempted', which means that the outcome was not determined. God knew the outcome, but the freewill of Adam and Eve was still a factor that needed to be manipulated by Satan.

The story of the fall is a story about human self-righteousness. It's a story about the rebellious heart of man.

The redemption of man involves the repair of the Spirit in the heart of man. Only by the receiving of the Holy Spirit, lost to man at the fall, can a relationship of knowledge be re-established. It was the mission of Jesus Christ to overcome sin and death, and to renew the Spirit in man. The Gospel has nothing to do with man's righteousness, which is why it's described as a Gospel of grace.

It is wrong to imagine that the Father sent the Son against the Son's will. It was always in the will of the Son to do what His Father commanded, even unto death.

Let's not also forget that the purpose of one man's death was to bring (eternal) life to any who would repent and believe in Him. That's not sadism, it's a sacrifice based on love.

 

[Left Coast]

All men are sinners.

This is not about false teaching, which may lead a person astray. It's about the acceptance or denial of what is true. John's point is that evil will reject the light because 'the darkness comprehended it not' [John 1:5]

If a person doesn't comprehend something, and thus gets something about it wrong, they are not a liar. So the author of the Gospel of John contradicted what the author of 1 John said. The author of 1 John is just plain incorrect. People aren't liars simply for not believing Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And if you believe it, it doesn't make it true.
Since there is only the 'present world' I am correct to be totally reliant on it.
What evidence do you have for your belief?

God's Word, or Spirit.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If a person doesn't comprehend something, and thus gets something about it wrong, they are not a liar. So the author of the Gospel of John contradicted what the author of 1 John said. The author of 1 John is just plain incorrect. People aren't liars simply for not believing Jesus is the Messiah.

The Bible has many contradictions in it, but that's a whole other can of worms to open up.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I believe Jesus is a lamb of God, whose sacrifice and suffering and death takes away the sins of the world, and atones for sin.

I believe the lambs offered up as sin offerings in the old testament, prefigured the crucifixion.

BUt honestly, your post kind of disgusts me.

It condemns many people that I love and cherish, people with much love, humility, and charity, and Scripture says "God is love".

Many of these people have sacrificed and suffered a lot for the greater good, and I love the Hindu Gandhi, believing he was noble minded , a good person, and in Heaven.

There are souls I believe are in heaven, who I bless , and ask that they pray for and bless me.

Am I a liar?

I'm not passing judgment, l'm quoting the scriptures!

You say that Jesus was 'a lamb of God', but John called Jesus 'the Lamb of God' [John 1:29]. This is not a minor distinction, for the claim made by Jesus himself is that he is the only way to the Father.

What do you think Jesus meant? [John 14:6]

 

[Spiderman]

The Bible has many contradictions in it, but that's a whole other can of worms to open up.

Interesting, you mentioned a can of worms regarding the Bible.

Earlier today, not long before you said that, I was reading about Martin Luther appearing for "the Diet of worms", and the "Edict of worms".

But the "diet of worms" was where Luther would not recant, it was about the Bible, and Solascriptura Doctrine of it, so to see "the Bible"...compared to a "open a can of worms", shortly after studying "Diet of worms" gave me an interesting amusing vision in my imagination.

Thank you for that, friend!

 

[Spiderman]

I'm not passing judgment, l'm quoting the scriptures!

You say that Jesus was 'a lamb of God', but John called Jesus 'the Lamb of God' [John 1:29]. This is not a minor distinction, for the claim made by Jesus himself is that he is the only way to the Father.

What do you think Jesus meant? [John 14:6]

All kinds of people and Angels are connected to Jesus, according to Scripture.

Scripture says "we are one body in Christ".

Paul said "it is no longer I who live, but Christ", in Scripture.

If a person can be transformed into Christ, we are one body in Christ, that would mean a lot of people carry Jesus in them, are one with Christ, and can lead people to the Father.

Jesus also said "call no man your Father", but Scripture says "honor your father and your mother", and Paul said "I became your Father", and Stephen referred to Abraham as Father.

So, call no man your Father, doesn't mean call no man your Father.

Jesus also said "call no man your teacher". He obviously didn't mean what he said.

Jesus said "if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out".. He didn't mean it , or I would have no eyes.

Jesus said you can move mountains and trees with faith the size of a mustard seed.

Jesus often didn't mean what was said.

Scripture is extremely hard to interpret.

God is love Scripture says. There are Christians with no love, and Buddhists who are full of love.

Please quit assuming you know exactly what Jesus was talking about, in a book that very often doesn't speak literally!

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Interesting, you mentioned a can of worms regarding the Bible.

Earlier today, not long before you said that, I was reading about Martin Luther appearing for "the Diet of worms", and the "Edict of worms".

But the "diet of worms" was where Luther would not recant, it was about the Bible, and Solascriptura Doctrine of it, so to see "the Bible"...compared to a "open a can of worms", shortly after studying "Diet of worms" gave me an interesting amusing vision in my imagination.

Thank you for that, friend!

Poor Martin Luther. He certainly opened up Pandora's Box when he sparked the Reformation, didn't he? Now there are thousands of diverse Protestant churches that have a different biblical interpretation and different beliefs about salvation, baptism, the end times, and several other theological topics related to the Bible. Most Christians endlessly bicker with other Christians and accuse other Christians of not being truly saved. Personally, I think it's erroneous for any Christian to claim that Christianity is the only true religion and all other religions are false when Christians can't even agree with each other about what the Bible actually teaches.