Are you going to get the flu shot (H1N1)?

[enchanted_one1975]

The nasal spray vaccine contains live but a highly diluted strain; the injectable vaccine is made with dead H1N1 virus.I'm getting the injectable one next week. Getting a mist squirted up your nostril is not particularly traumatic. You've never used cold or sinus medicine before? My two year old is getting the shot brave man that he is.

I'm not afraid of stuff up my nose. Heck my finger goes up there as needed. But to be honest I prefer not to use nasal sprays. They either roll back out your nose or drip down your throat. I prefer to just cover up one nostril and expel boogers out the other one when I get stuffed up. It works great and is environmentally friendly too as all those resources are not wasted on packaging a gross product. I really don't want live virii or bacteria in there, especially potentially lethal ones. All it takes is a small diluted amount of an illness to catch the illness. That's what's gross about it. If your immune system is strong enough to fight off the nose juice it is probably strong enough to fight off the real deal when someone coughs on you at work.

 

[ericoh2]

Here's a webpage citing studies that draw a link between thimerosal in vaccines and mercury. So to say that there is no support for Kennedy's claim is not true.



The Vaccine-Autism Connection – Part I (Thimerosal)

 

[ericoh2]

Here's a webpage citing studies that draw a link between thimerosal in vaccines and mercury. So to say that there is no support for Kennedy's claim is not true.



The Vaccine-Autism Connection – Part I (Thimerosal)

sorry, in the last sentence I meant to say , "so to say there is no scientific evidence for Kennedy's claim is not true."

 

[Nepenthe]

You seem pretty confident in your stance concerning mercury. Where did you get your info and why do you believe it is more valid than the counter argument?

I get the info. from scientific peer reviewed journals.
AAP did an interesting study in '04 on the quality of studies that claimed a thimerasol-autism link and concluded:

Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD, and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions. [emphasis mine]Evidence does not support a change in the standard of practice with regard to administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in areas of the world where they are used.
Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data -- Parker et al. 114 (3): 793 -- Pediatrics​

These are just a small sample of the scientific studies that found no connection between thimerosal and autism. The links are below, the papers were originally published in the following journals but the links are to abstracts of the studies:
The Canadian Journal of Pediatric Science
Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry
Pediatrics & Child Health
Institute of Medicine
New England Journal of Medicine
American Journal of Medical Genetics
Lancet

There are dozens of scientific papers showing again and again there's no causal relationship between thimerosal and autism. Every major medical scientific organization sees no link here: IOM, MHRA, WHO, NHS, CDC, FDA, and EMEA included. The anti-vaccination crowd is an unscientific fringe. There's just no evidence of thimerosal, much less vaccines, being dangerous.

Here's a webpage citing studies that draw a link between thimerosal in vaccines and mercury. So to say that there is no support for Kennedy's claim is not true.

The Vaccine-Autism Connection – Part I (Thimerosal)

There's no scientific support for Kennedy's claim. RFK is a lawyer, has no scientific background and is as woefully ignorant as the other famous anti-vaccer Jenny McCarthy.

 

[ericoh2]

I get the info. from scientific peer reviewed journals.
AAP did an interesting study in '04 on the quality of studies that claimed a thimerasol-autism link and concluded:

Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD, and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions. [emphasis mine]Evidence does not support a change in the standard of practice with regard to administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in areas of the world where they are used.
Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data -- Parker et al. 114 (3): 793 -- Pediatrics​

These are just a small sample of the scientific studies that found no connection between thimerosal and autism. The links are below, the papers were originally published in the following journals but the links are to abstracts of the studies:
The Canadian Journal of Pediatric Science
Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry
Pediatrics & Child Health
Institute of Medicine
New England Journal of Medicine
American Journal of Medical Genetics
Lancet

There are dozens of scientific papers showing again and again there's no causal relationship between thimerosal and autism. Every major medical scientific organization sees no link here: IOM, MHRA, WHO, NHS, CDC, FDA, and EMEA included. The anti-vaccination crowd is an unscientific fringe. There's just no evidence of thimerosal, much less vaccines, being dangerous.

There's no scientific support for Kennedy's claim. RFK is a lawyer, has no scientific background and is as woefully ignorant as the other famous anti-vaccer Jenny McCarthy.

I know that there are major medical scientific organizations that deny the link with autism and mercury. Honestly though I feel that these groups as a whole are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies so I don't have much of an incentive to take their word over an individual scientist or doctor who does a study. I just don't understand why you are saying "There's no scientific support for Kennedy's claim." I can pull up several studies that link the two. Here's a recent one from this year. Study Proves Link Between Thimerosal and Autism Neurotoxicity
I don't see how you can say there is "no" scientific evidence to support Kennedy's case.

 

[Irish]

How about you?

Nope. I'm not getting the flu shot because I've already had pandemic H1N1 influenza A this year. I was horribly sick for 3 days but apparently I'm now alive and kickin'.

 

[cardero]

Are you going to get the flu shot (H1N1)?

No, because I Am Legend.

 

[Nepenthe]

I know that there are major medical scientific organizations that deny the link with autism and mercury. Honestly though I feel that these groups as a whole are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies so I don't have much of an incentive to take their word over an individual scientist or doctor who does a study. I just don't understand why you are saying "There's no scientific support for Kennedy's claim." I can pull up several studies that link the two. Here's a recent one from this year. Study Proves Link Between Thimerosal and Autism Neurotoxicity
I don't see how you can say there is "no" scientific evidence to support Kennedy's case.

The small samples of journals I listed as well as the medical organizations like the CDC are in the hands of big pharma? The vast majority of scientific studies have shown no causal link whatsoever (Wiki' has a good breakdown and links to the non-controversy) but you suggest those studies can be dismissed because the companies are under the thumb of big pharma? The anti-vacc' crowd is as obstinate as creationists sometimes; ignoring the vast majority of scientific evidence that makes their claims invalid and unsupported while seeing shadowy conspiracies where there are none.

The problem with the study you linked is that Dr. Greier has been severely criticized for this study since he has refused to allow access to his statistical analyses so other scientists can replicate his work and/or critique it. Greier has also been accused of improperly interpreting data and mislabelling important statistical analyses in various papers. Greier and his son are notorious anti-vaccers and he's been accused of plagarism and ethics violations.

But I do find it ironic that you'd accuse the organizations and studies I linked as being in cahoots with big pharma when your link is to the journal Toxicology & Environmental Toxicology where the published study was funded by CoMeD, Inc. through a grant from the Brenen Hornstein Autism Research & Education Foundation and the non-profit Institute of Chronic Illnesses, Inc.
CoMed is a non-profit dedicated to mercury free vaccines- and I'm fine with their bias as long as the research they fund is scientifically substantiated. And the Brenen Hornstein Autism group has a pretty wide umbrella where they incorporate studies that are extremely controversial. Again, no worries as long as the real science filters out the pseudoscience. But the Institute of Chronic Illnesses, Inc. is a problem. Dr. Mark Greier and his son claim the I.o.C.I., Inc. approved their study yet nobody has heard of them. The organization was registered by Dr. Greier as a non-profit in 2005 in Maryland, and the address for the organization is Greier's home address. The fraud runs deeper than this post will allow so here's a link explaining all the shennanigans anti-vacc fanatics like Greier have pulled to continue their crusade under the guise of a scientific sounding organizationn. Big pharma is nothin' compared to the anti-vaccer charlatans.
neurodiversity weblog: An Elusive Institute

 

[Alceste]

I've never had a flu shot and have no plans to get one any time soon. I'm skeptical of the need for vaccinations for minor illnesses. I suppose if the virus mutated and became life-threatening I might reconsider. I've had Hepatitis vaccinations and some gross malaria pills (quinine - barf) for traveling, and I'm still walking upright.

In general though, I prefer preventive measures and natural remedies (could be something as simple as bed rest and lots of tea) to pharmaceuticals.

I'm extremely skeptical of research into pharmaceuticals because it is almost always done by the makers of the pharmaceuticals in question. When the snake-oil salesman tells you the snake-oil works, it's reasonable to be skeptical, even if he operates out of a lab and publishes his findings in peer-reviewed journals. It's much too easy to cook an experiment in the design phase to make it give the desired result - whatever side you're on.

So, generally I avoid them as much as possible unless the benefits to be gained definitely outweigh the risks. So, Hepatitis? Sure - poke me. The flu? I'll take my chances, thanks.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

The small samples of journals I listed as well as the medical organizations like the CDC...http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/ar...the-evolution-of-the-lupron-protocol-part-two

Are you willing to die for these journals and organizations? I'm not.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I am too old... It is not being offered to those over 65.
I have had the seasonal flue jab.
My son in law has had many hundres of Swine flue victims in his surgery. He has not had a single one over the age of 45.
The worst cases have been school children and those in their early twenties, though he has not had a death yet, though some have been in intensive care.

 

[ericoh2]

The small samples of journals I listed as well as the medical organizations like the CDC are in the hands of big pharma? The vast majority of scientific studies have shown no causal link whatsoever (Wiki' has a good breakdown and links to the non-controversy) but you suggest those studies can be dismissed because the companies are under the thumb of big pharma? The anti-vacc' crowd is as obstinate as creationists sometimes; ignoring the vast majority of scientific evidence that makes their claims invalid and unsupported while seeing shadowy conspiracies where there are none.

The problem with the study you linked is that Dr. Greier has been severely criticized for this study since he has refused to allow access to his statistical analyses so other scientists can replicate his work and/or critique it. Greier has also been accused of improperly interpreting data and mislabelling important statistical analyses in various papers. Greier and his son are notorious anti-vaccers and he's been accused of plagarism and ethics violations.

But I do find it ironic that you'd accuse the organizations and studies I linked as being in cahoots with big pharma when your link is to the journal Toxicology & Environmental Toxicology where the published study was funded by CoMeD, Inc. through a grant from the Brenen Hornstein Autism Research & Education Foundation and the non-profit Institute of Chronic Illnesses, Inc.
CoMed is a non-profit dedicated to mercury free vaccines- and I'm fine with their bias as long as the research they fund is scientifically substantiated. And the Brenen Hornstein Autism group has a pretty wide umbrella where they incorporate studies that are extremely controversial. Again, no worries as long as the real science filters out the pseudoscience. But the Institute of Chronic Illnesses, Inc. is a problem. Dr. Mark Greier and his son claim the I.o.C.I., Inc. approved their study yet nobody has heard of them. The organization was registered by Dr. Greier as a non-profit in 2005 in Maryland, and the address for the organization is Greier's home address. The fraud runs deeper than this post will allow so here's a link explaining all the shennanigans anti-vacc fanatics like Greier have pulled to continue their crusade under the guise of a scientific sounding organizationn. Big pharma is nothin' compared to the anti-vaccer charlatans.
neurodiversity weblog: An Elusive Institute

Thank you for the links, I'm glad you went through the trouble to find them . I'm not saying dismiss anything, I was saying that just because it's a big government company it doesn't carry any extra weight with me. I see motive for financial gain anywhere big pharma and anything tied to the federal gov't are working together. That doesn't mean to dismiss everything from them or that all they say is a lie, but it should at least keep you skeptical. But I really don't think you're getting the point of my post. You're exactly right, many of the independent studies may also have bias and could well be misrepresented. My point was that it is irresponsible to be so sure that vaccines are safe when there are several studies, many more than that of Dr. Greier that suggest vaccines are harmful. And there's no way you can prove that either side is completley wrong or right. Several doctors say not to take it and every source I have ever came across says mercury is poison. I have also read that the swine flu vaccine will have 25 mcg per dose, which is five times the amount of mercury the EPA deems safe for a 100 pound individual. So for me, it seems more logical to veer on side of what's natural and not put any extra poison in yourself, especially with something as minor as the flu being the risk you take.

 

[jamaesi]

Jeez, the only conspiracy theory I can see with the swine flu vaccine is that conspiracy theorists might get wiped out cause they won't get vaccinated.

Check this site out, will ya?

 

[Panda]

Nope I'm not, never had normal flu so not really bothered about this either.

My dads partner is a GP and she said last week was her busiest week in a long time due to all the people with swine flu, and those who think they do but actually have a cold.

To be fair this doesn't seem anymore dangerous than normal flu.

 

[Nepenthe]

Are you willing to die for these journals and organizations? I'm not.

Whaaaa...?!?!
Why would I be willing to die by accepting the scientific concensus? I don't follow your logic.

 

[challupa]

No I'm not getting the shot. I have already had the real thing. It wasn't pleasant and lasted a bit longer than I remember flus generally last (I hadn't been sick in ages though). It starts quite quickly. Sore throat, then the congestion and then the fever and headache. The headache is what really got me cause I never get them and am a real baby when I do... However, I found going for a walk (slow one lol) really helps ease the symptoms. The muscle aches are ugly too. Pain meds are really handy with this flu.:yes:

 

[Nepenthe]

Thank you for the links, I'm glad you went through the trouble to find them . I'm not saying dismiss anything, I was saying that just because it's a big government company it doesn't carry any extra weight with me. I see motive for financial gain anywhere big pharma and anything tied to the federal gov't are working together. That doesn't mean to dismiss everything from them or that all they say is a lie, but it should at least keep you skeptical. But I really don't think you're getting the point of my post. You're exactly right, many of the independent studies may also have bias and could well be misrepresented. My point was that it is irresponsible to be so sure that vaccines are safe when there are several studies, many more than that of Dr. Greier that suggest vaccines are harmful. And there's no way you can prove that either side is completley wrong or right. Several doctors say not to take it and every source I have ever came across says mercury is poison. I have also read that the swine flu vaccine will have 25 mcg per dose, which is five times the amount of mercury the EPA deems safe for a 100 pound individual. So for me, it seems more logical to veer on side of what's natural and not put any extra poison in yourself, especially with something as minor as the flu being the risk you take.

No worries. What else is there to do on a Friday night?
I'm no fan of big pharma- when the free market is intimately tied to a basic human right like health care I am very skeptical and cynical. That's why I lean towards as many scientific studies and organizations to tip the balance so to speak. I don't deny many of these organizations have some shadiness in their background particularly when it comes to profit motives trumping health care. It's an unfortunate and inherent consequence of capitalism's influence on the pharamceutical world. The trick is to look as at much info. as possible and be wary, be skeptical, but not dismissive of what's out there.

I will agree with you 100% that H1N1 and the flu panics that seem to be hyped every year are, well, hyped every year. It's the flu, and it's not any more deadly than other strains; the concern is over how widespread it is and how that statistically means more people have a greater chance of dying from it.

 

[ericoh2]

No worries. What else is there to do on a Friday night?
I'm no fan of big pharma- when the free market is intimately tied to a basic human right like health care I am very skeptical and cynical. That's why I lean towards as many scientific studies and organizations to tip the balance so to speak. I don't deny many of these organizations have some shadiness in their background particularly when it comes to profit motives trumping health care. It's an unfortunate and inherent consequence of capitalism's influence on the pharamceutical world. The trick is to look as at much info. as possible and be wary, be skeptical, but not dismissive of what's out there.

I will agree with you 100% that H1N1 and the flu panics that seem to be hyped every year are, well, hyped every year. It's the flu, and it's not any more deadly than other strains; the concern is over how widespread it is and how that statistically means more people have a greater chance of dying from it.

Yeah it's really hard for us to really know what's going out there. It's a shame we just can't get honest information and those doing the research would just keep an open mind and go where the info would takes them. Thanks again for all the info. its good to see at least some people are trying to get an informed opinion instead of just going along with hype. Well I hope everything goes well for all no matter what decision they make. Have a nice weekend .

 

[Alceste]

Personally, I think it's likely that governments are oiling the wheels to refine methods of getting vaccines out as quickly as possible in the case of a lethal pandemic, like another Spanish flu. It's like a fire drill. I'm glad they're doing it, but I don't think I need to sign up for a poke for this one.

 

[Jackytar]

I work in an Emergency room and get exposed to everything. My immune system is currently so built-up that it is attacking squirrels in our back yard.

I used to get whatever flu is going around every year like clock work. Then I started taking the flu shot and in 6 or 7 years I've had the flu only once - last year when they didn't predict the strain right. I've already had the seasonal flu shot and will get the H1N1 next week.

Seems to me the anti-vaccine folks have no sense of history. I've cared for folks with polio. It wasn't that long ago. And the Spanish flu (also a H1N1 strain) was less than a century ago. What was the body count? 50 million in one year?

I may choose not to have the swine flu shot if I didn't work in health care. But I sure as heck wouldn't go around telling others it's dangerous. As somebody said - may take out all of the conspiracy theorists. I would add Glenn Beck fans as well. Natural selection in action...

"The only thing dumber than the helmet is the helmet law, the point of which is to protect a brain that is functioning so poorly, it's not even trying to stop the cracking of the head that it's in..." - Jerry Seinfeld

Jackytar