Aren’t we all really worshipping the same God?

[TransmutingSoul]

OK, you think we ALL have some ability to sense God. What is it exactly we are able to sense that does NOT require assumption and belief first?

If you are correct then atheists will be able to sense God, so explain.

The only way that can happen is to look at the Messengers who have claimed to be from God. There are True Messengers and there are many false that will make that claim. This life is to offer us that choice.

Our ability is contained in the intention of our heart, in this context our heart is related to Love, Trustworthiness and Truthfulness.

This is the first instruction given by God. This is the Spirit that we all possess, the spirit of good choices of virtue.

"O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."

Then the second instruction is about Justice.

"O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."

If we never make the effort to judge a Messengers claim, we can never find God.

That does not mean that we cannot be a good person, living attributes, it just means that those attributes are temporary, they perish with our life as they were self serving.

The purpose of the Messengers is to inspire us to live those attributes in preference of self for the good of all humanity.

If one is a person that does live life like that, not knowing the source that has inspired those actions, it means their spirit is already in tune with the Message given of God.

Could offer many a differnt answer to consider, it can be explained in many ways

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that right there makes it clear that what you take to be The One God and what many others take to be God are not the same. If God is outside of creation, outside of the universe, then those who believe that God is immanent INSIDE the cosmos are clearly looking at a different God.

It really only means they have a different frame of reference.

All of God's Attributes are put into creation and each one of those attributes can be known by a different name and be seen to be a different God.

Regards Tony

 

[McBell]

It really only means they have a different frame of reference.

All of God's Attributes are put into creation and each one of those attributes can be known by a different name and be seen to be a different God.

Regards Tony

So then, God can be known...

 

[CG Didymus]

OK, you think we ALL have some ability to sense God. What is it exactly we are able to sense that does NOT require assumption and belief first?

This response is based on TS's posts, but it's kind of useless discussing or debating with him. So, I'll discuss them with you.

Different frames of reference he says? Well yeah, like the Fundie Christian frame of reference... We are born sinners and the only way we can be saved is by believing in Jesus. But how true is that? They believe that there is an evil spirit-being out there trying to deceive us. And that the true God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not one of those things is true according to the Baha'i Faith.

Yet there's people that "know" that's true, because they've experienced it. They have felt the love of God. They know that Jesus is in their hearts. They know the Holy Spirit is communicating with them and guiding them. And they that Satan is real and is trying to tempt them to sin.

Yes, belief sure seems to lead people to experience things or imagine things, that they believe are true based on what their religious beliefs tell them is true. But is it real? No matter what the beliefs, as long as a person is believing in some type of God, it is the one and only true God they are believing in? Except, of course, unless it's a false God and a false messenger they're believing in.

It really only means they have a different frame of reference.

The only way that can happen is to look at the Messengers who have claimed to be from God. There are True Messengers and there are many false that will make that claim. This life is to offer us that choice.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So then, God can be known...

No God is Unknowable. The Manifestations of the Holy Spitit can be embraced in the light that they come to us with.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

The only way that can happen is to look at the Messengers who have claimed to be from God. There are True Messengers and there are many false that will make that claim. This life is to offer us that choice.

You and other Baha'i have presented what you think is evidence and the fact is it's not convincing. No one has been convinced including people who believe a God exists.

Our ability is contained in the intention of our heart, in this context our heart is related to Love, Trustworthiness and Truthfulness.

This doesn't tell me anything about the ability you claim exists.

This is the first instruction given by God. This is the Spirit that we all possess, the spirit of good choices of virtue.

"O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."

Then the second instruction is about Justice.

"O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."

Anyone could have written this. It's not convincing as being a divine text.

If we never make the effort to judge a Messengers claim, we can never find God.

Why assume any of it is true when there's no compelling evidence?

That does not mean that we cannot be a good person, living attributes, it just means that those attributes are temporary, they perish with our life as they were self serving.

There's nothing that suggests we live after death. It's called death for a reason.

The purpose of the Messengers is to inspire us to live those attributes in preference of self for the good of all humanity.

There's not much in the messages that is unique, or crucial, or that other religions don't promote. Let's not forget the homophobia that is a seriously negative message in the 21st century. That tells us it is an obsolete message.

If one is a person that does live life like that, not knowing the source that has inspired those actions, it means their spirit is already in tune with the Message given of God.

Assuming a God exists, and the Messengers genuine. Critical minds can't make these assumptions, nor conclude these claims true due to a lack of evidence.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You and other Baha'i have presented what you think is evidence and the fact is it's not convincing. No one has been convinced including people who believe a God exists

I need not prive to you any of this. You walk your path, I will walk mine.

As I said, I see the rejection of God as a self induced ignorance. I have lived too many years listening to the prove God mentality, I have now got zero interest in it.

I wish you all the best and all the happiness this world can provide, but consider what I have offered if you choose to aak me questions. Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

I need not prive to you any of this.

You're on a forum that invites discussion, and there are certain formal and polite rules to discourse. This includes offering support that any claim you make is true in reality. You disrespect others when you make claims and then ignore questions. This isn't Baha'i fellowship where all you ahve to do is state your beliefs and everyone agrees.

You walk your path, I will walk mine.

You bring your path to the forum as if it's objectively true, but then ignore questions. That's bad manners.

As I said, I see the rejection of God as a self induced ignorance.

This is rude. That is a judgment you impose on others because you think you are correct. Yet you avoid answering questions, and that suggests you have no actual knowledge.

I have lived too many years listening to the prove God mentality, I have now got zero interest in it.

Then why are you posting your beliefs on an open forum?

 

[Valjean]

For example we can see the signs of the great flood. Or Jews were scattered as it was promised, if the do wrongly. And it was also told they will be gathered back, as we can see nowadays happening. Obviously there is many thing that we can't directly see. But there are big things that come true as the Bible tells. And for me that is a reason to believe it.

We see no signs of a world flood. Floods leave distinct geological evidence. There is no such evidence of Noah's flood.
Nor is there evidence of a large population of Egyptian Hebrews, or of a massive exodus of same.

 

[Valjean]

No, this advice is recorded in the Holy Books and is the foundation of a Faith in God.

Regards Tony

It's in one holy book; a book of unknown authorship, replete with factual errors, contradictions, editing and fantastical, unevidenced claims.
I agree that it's the foundation of Christian faith, but faith is unfounded belief, not knowledge.

 

[Valjean]

Well, we probably both have confidence in our OWN beliefs.
Nothing strange about that, OR significant .. unless of course, you think that you are
so much more superior than I am.

But one of your two different beliefs is evidenced and reasonable, the other is not. They are not equivalent.

 

[Valjean]

I guess I'm just mesmerized by that unknown beginning that started it all. I'm sitting in the sun on a chilly day, listening to the sounds and looking at the budding out of early spring and I'm in continuous awe. How did this circle of life come to be? Except for what man has misused it works so well after millions of years. Fascinating.

And science endeavors to answer just these questions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I guess I'm just mesmerized by that unknown beginning that started it all. I'm sitting in the sun on a chilly day, listening to the sounds and looking at the budding out of early spring and I'm in continuous awe. How did this circle of life come to be? Except for what man has misused it works so well after millions of years. Fascinating.

I am also in absolute awe of many things in nature. However, it does have its dark side: animals eating other animals, broken bones, infections, cancer, earthquakes, volcanos, hurricanes, droughts.... all of these cause tremendous suffering and its not due to humans.

 

[Aupmanyav]

..so why is there such a big page about it in wiki, with so many refs. ?

I am sure there are pages on magic and after-life in Wikipedia too with many references. There is a page on voudoo too.

I guess I'm just mesmerized by that unknown beginning that started it all. I'm sitting in the sun on a chilly day, listening to the sounds and looking at the budding out of early spring and I'm in continuous awe. How did this circle of life come to be? Except for what man has misused it works so well after millions of years. Fascinating.

Not surprised. Some say it is eternal (but why it is so?), others say it arose out of nothing (but why it is so?). Only further research may give us the answers to 'why's.

 

[1213]

We see no signs of a world flood. Floods leave distinct geological evidence. There is no such evidence of Noah's flood.

You don't see the evidence, because you think it was like a normal local small flood. By what the Bible tells, it was nothing like that. The whole thing started by braking the original single continent, which pieces sunk. One evidence for it is the modern continents.

Nor is there evidence of a large population of Egyptian Hebrews, or of a massive exodus of same.

Bible and Jews are evidence for that. And that is quite lot, in comparison to anything else happening at that time.

 

[1213]

Really? What signs?

Please look the answer for Valjean. (post #235)

Scattering of people. Promised or not, this is 21st Century and people are migrating from one place to another. You can find Hindus, Gujaratis, Sindhis and Sikhs in all parts of the world.
It was not different even in olden days. Indo-Aryans came from Pontic steppes to Central Asia and then to India.

Was it said to Hindus over thousands of years ago that they will be scattered?`And was it said to them that in much later time they will be gathered back to their home land?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But one of your two different beliefs is evidenced and reasonable, the other is not..

Again, that is purely your opinion.
If you claim it to be MORE than just your opinion, you effectively claim that the majority of people
are imbeciles.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am sure there are pages on magic and after-life in Wikipedia too with many references. There is a page on voudoo too..

That's true .. but without free-will, you could not choose to read them.

 

[F1fan]

You don't see the evidence, because you think it was like a normal local small flood. By what the Bible tells, it was nothing like that. The whole thing started by braking the original single continent, which pieces sunk. One evidence for it is the modern continents.View attachment 89616

Bible and Jews are evidence for that. And that is quite lot, in comparison to anything else happening at that time.

Bible stories are not evidence of anything definitive. Experts in geology don't back up the flood myth. Experts in biology don't back up the creation myth. Experts in cosmology don't back up the creation myth, neither version. Experts in genetics and migration of humans don't back up the post flood myth. And experts in various fields of science don't back up the Exodus story.

Yet true believers still refer to invalid religious sources as if they are evidence. The source you cite are only valued by believers who seek to reinforce established religious beliefs that were not derived from reaon and evidence, but adopted socially from the previous generation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You don't see the evidence, because you think it was like a normal local small flood. By what the Bible tells, it was nothing like that. The whole thing started by braking the original single continent, which pieces sunk. One evidence for it is the modern continents.

Bible and Jews are evidence for that.

That does not require a God. The continents are floating on magma. Have moved, will keep on moving. The signs of that are on other planets too.
Yeah, half the world's Jews are in Israel now. In what way that benefited the Jews, a nation which is perpetually at war!

That's true .. but without free-will, you could not choose to read them.

I will read them if I need to read them. The need is not created by free-will. If need is there, then I will be forced to read them. Many things are involved.