Aren’t we all really worshipping the same God?

[loverofhumanity]

All right - I'll play along and ignore your posts in the thread since the OP.

Would you agree that "we all believe in the same god" would be hypothetically useful for proselytizing?

And can you see how an outside observer could infer a lot of ego and condescension in the dismissal of differences needed for a hypothetical person to say "we all believe in the same god"?

I’m only asking whether or not the mystical feelings that spiritual people have is similar or identical or not and to explain why or why not. There may be many differences so what we all worship might not be the same. It’s being explored here. This is for my learning as well. I think there are both similarities but differences as well unique to each individual. Maybe I’m wrong and we are not all worshipping the same God but reaching out to something unknown.

 

[CG Didymus]

My reply was to @muhammad_isa and not @loverofhumanity , but you're kinda getting at my point: when people say that "everyone" believes in the same god, any differences between the version they believe and the one some other guy believes are a matter of the other guy's god-concept being deficient or incorrect in some way and never a matter of adjusting their own beliefs.

In practice, "we all believe in the same God" is about personal aggrandizement.

In a way, aren't we arguing with the same person, Muhammad Isa and Loverofhumanity? We're just calling them by different names?

But I went back and reviewed what I was responding to...

Buddhists pray to ’something’. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Christians all pray to this ‘something’. What it is nobody knows except it is described as loving, merciful, compassionate and wants what is best for us but apart from a mystical experience none can describe in words what it is they are actually praying to because it’s a mystery to everyone yet they know it exists through inner perceptions not through the outward senses. I believe we are all connecting to the same Reality just that we aren’t aware of it.

I'm okay with someone saying the "experience" is the same or similar. But the "God" they are believing isn't the same. And like with the Christian triune God, if that concept isn't real, then they are praying and worshipping a false belief about a God that doesn't exist. Yet, they "experience" that wrong concept of God as being real.

I’m asking the question whether what we are all worshipping is the same entity or not. It’s for the forum to say what they think.

Does LH really care what others think?

That's how you started the thread, but you've given your own answer many times since then.

I'd say no, because it seems like he is pushing his belief as the one that is true. So, he should be asking, "I believe we all worship the same God. If you don't, then why not? Because my beliefs are based on what God told my prophet, Baha'u'llah. Which is The Absolute Truth."

Whatever we pray to, I believe it is the same reality only we think that we are praying to different gods.

The example of the prophets of Baal contradicts this. The "true" God, the God of Israel, had Elijah kill the prophets of Baal, because they were false prophets believing in a false God. Yet, I would not doubt they had "mystical" experiences about their God.

But the God of one religion isn't the same. When a religion calls their God by a different name it's for a reason. Their God has different characteristics and does different things and expects different things from his followers.

And this is when Muhammad Isa gets replies to me.

That would be an ignorant reason.
The MAIN reason, would be the various different languages that we speak.

My reason is "ignorant" to him? Of course, I could say that he's being ignorant, or stupid or wrong. But why be mean. Let me just say that each language has a different word for "God". But do all people mean the same thing and are describing the same being when they use their word for "God"? When Jews were talking about their God, they were not describing Thor. And they weren't describing the God of the trinitarian Christians.

For example .. God, Jehovah, Allah (Arabic), Yahweh (Hebrew), Brahman (Hindu), Uyyaṉ (Tamil),
Ik Onkar (Sikh), Ahura Mazda (Zoroastrian), Gitche Manitou (Native American) ...

Makes sense to me.

Yeah, similar. Some higher spirit-being. But it's more like they were guessing at what that higher being was like and what it does and what it wants.

Ahura Mazda has a wife. Your god has a wife?

The most popular version of the Christian God is triune. Your god is triune?

And here's some examples on how different they were.

Some people have a concept of what God is like and who he is. Are those concepts all the same? No. Then why would a person believe that those other people with a different concept of God are believing in theirs? Would a Jew, Baha'i or Muslim believe in a triune God? No. Would they believe God has a wife? I don't think so.

Since LH is a Baha'i, then why can't he just say something like those other religions believed in one God, but they thought many incorrect things about God. The correct things to believe about God are what the Baha'is teach about God.

LH? Muhammad Isa? Yeah, they have a different belief about who God really is. LH goes one step further than Muhammad Isa, though and believes the true God has sent a new prophet, his guy, Baha'u'llah. Did the God of Islam do that? Did the Christian God send him?

LH believes that yes, he did. The true God has been sending manifestations/messengers since the beginning. So, of course, for a Baha'i, all people have been praying to and worshipping the same God. But they have also been getting things confused and making up things about this "true" God that weren't true. Therefore, this true God had to keep sending new messengers to correct the things the people got wrong.

I don't think that's what's going on. I'm still think that ancient people made up things about the world and the Gods. And people in different cultures saw the differences and believed that those other Gods were false. They were not the same. But were any of them real? Yet, to the believers, they were very real, and they experienced them as if they were real.

"It’s for the forum to say what they think." well LH, that is what I think. Now tell me how the God of the Aztecs, or the God of the Greeks, or any of the other ancient beliefs about God are the same as the God you believe in?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Muhammad Isa? Yeah, they have a different belief about who God really is. LH goes one step further than Muhammad Isa, though and believes the true God has sent a new prophet, his guy, Baha'u'llah. Did the God of Islam do that? Did the Christian God send him?

You confuse issues of creed, with that of monotheism.
We all believe in the same One God .. the God that Abraham worshipped .. and we
recite the same narratives from The Bible /Qur'an.

It is interpretation that often differs.

..Now tell me how the God of the Aztecs, or the God of the Greeks, or any of the other ancient beliefs about God are the same as the God you believe in?

You can't learn much about this topic from sweeping statements ..
Take "the God of the Greeks" for example .. which one would that be?

 

[danieldemol]

Maybe so, but it's message remains the same. It is not going to be changed.

Nah its reinterpreted by apologists all the time. Thousands of sects with their own interpretation are adequate evidence of this.

 

[CG Didymus]

You confuse issues of creed, with that of monotheism.
We all believe in the same One God .. the God that Abraham worshipped .. and we
recite the same narratives from The Bible /Qur'an.

It is interpretation that often differs.


You can't learn much about this topic from sweeping statements ..
Take "the God of the Greeks" for example .. which one would that be?

That's part of the problem with what LH's is saying. Since Baha'is believe that even some religions that believe in many Gods, also have a most high or main God, that the main God is the same as the Baha'is one true God.

All I'm saying is that those religions had a concept of a main God, but it's not the same as what you believe about God.

So, in your view, was there some people that had a religion that believed in a false God? If so, why was that God false and not the triune God of some Christians? Like I've mentioned, Christianity and Judaism have no problem calling some Gods false. I thought that Islam did too. Am I wrong?

Oh, and about which Greek God...

• Zeus​

  
  With the assistance of Hades and Poseidon, Zeus overthrew his father, Cronus, king of the Titans, and became the chief deity in a new pantheon comprising mostly his siblings and children. In addition to controlling the weather, Zeus was noted for his chronic infidelity to his sister-wife, Hera. Among the results of his weakness for comely mortal women was Helen of Troy. His Roman equivalent was Jupiter.
• 
  
• Cruel and fickle, passionate and vindictive, jealous and insecure, petty and insane: the inhabitants of Mount Olympus represent an attempt by the ancient Greeks to explain the chaos of the universe through human nature. Thus, like every deity invented before and since, these gods and goddesses are embodiments of human solipsism. (Of course lightning is caused by a giant, angry man in the sky…obvi. I mean, what else could it be?) The stories of their battles, bickering, and sexual conquests have indelibly influenced the course of Western language and narrative. Here is a selection of some of the A-list names of the Greek pantheon.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's part of the problem with what LH's is saying. Since Baha'is believe that even some religions that believe in many Gods, also have a most high or main God, that the main God is the same as the Baha'is one true God.

All I'm saying is that those religions had a concept of a main God, but it's not the same as what you believe about God..

They are ancient religions .. they have evolved into something often unrecognizable from their roots.
This is why messengers were sent more frequently in the past .. the majority were illiterate, and
needed constant reminders to straighten their path.

These days, we have books and other media .. and of course, a substantial core of orthodox believers.

So, in your view, was there some people that had a religion that believed in a false God?

More like false god(s).
Polytheism was rife in days gone by, as was illiteracy.

If so, why was that God false and not the triune God of some Christians?

..as I say, the ancient religions evolved .. and became more culture than anything else.

Oh, and about which Greek God...

• Zeus​

  ...
  With the assistance of Hades and Poseidon, Zeus overthrew his father, Cronus, king of the Titans, and became the chief deity in a new pantheon comprising mostly his siblings and children. In addition to controlling the weather, Zeus was noted for his chronic infidelity to his sister-wife, Hera. Among the results of his weakness for comely mortal women was Helen of Troy. His Roman equivalent was Jupiter.

Polytheism .. the topic is "the One God" .. a specific monotheism.

 

[CG Didymus]

Polytheism .. the topic is "the One God" .. a specific monotheism.

Everything you said is consistent with what LH says. But Baha'is do have to address polytheism to make it fit into their beliefs. So, whether it's any one of the main Gods that some Hindus believe in or the main God of the Greeks, it has to be similar as far as I can tell.

Krishna, and therefore, Vishnu has to be a true God to Baha'is, but any beliefs that go contrary to Baha'i beliefs has to be disregarded and called a wrong interpretation or a wrong addition into the beliefs of those Hindus.

So why can't Zeus be treated the same way? The Greeks worshipped a main God, therefore, LH's argument that it's the same God that other people were worshipping... they just called him by a different name should apply? Right? Or do you see it differently? And does Islam, like Baha'is, try to bring Hinduism into the group of true religions that were given by the one true God? And if so, how does Islam deal with the other Gods of Hinduism?

 

[Vinayaka]

Everything you said is consistent with what LH says. But Baha'is do have to address polytheism to make it fit into their beliefs. So, whether it's any one of the main Gods that some Hindus believe in or the main God of the Greeks, it has to be similar as far as I can tell.

Krishna, and therefore, Vishnu has to be a true God to Baha'is, but any beliefs that go contrary to Baha'i beliefs has to be disregarded and called a wrong interpretation or a wrong addition into the beliefs of those Hindus.

So why can't Zeus be treated the same way? The Greeks worshipped a main God, therefore, LH's argument that it's the same God that other people were worshipping... they just called him by a different name should apply? Right? Or do you see it differently? And does Islam, like Baha'is, try to bring Hinduism into the group of true religions that were given by the one true God? And if so, how does Islam deal with the other Gods of Hinduism?

Stop asking tough questions, please.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Or do you see it differently? And does Islam, like Baha'is, try to bring Hinduism into the group of true religions that were given by the one true God? And if so, how does Islam deal with the other Gods of Hinduism?

Huh?
I've already said that ancient religions evolved into what they are today!
In their present form, they contain errors, and often polytheistic in nature.

That does NOT mean that they do not have roots in monotheism.
In fact, we see evidence of this in many.

..and you know how "Islam" views this. Polytheism is a no no.
That is because it leads one astray .. away from a unified authority.

 

[CG Didymus]

Stop asking tough questions, please.

Yeah, you're right. What was I thinking.

 

[1213]

Nah its reinterpreted by apologists all the time. Thousands of sects with their own interpretation are adequate evidence of this.

I think we don't need interpretations, we can have the message directly from the Bible, without people distorting it with their interpretations.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think we don't need interpretations, we can have the message directly from the Bible, without people distorting it with their interpretations.

Errr, no.
Have you not heard of idioms and parables?

 

[danieldemol]

I think we don't need interpretations, we can have the message directly from the Bible, without people distorting it with their interpretations.

There are no sects that I know of that simply systematically read the bible from beginning to end then don't say what it means.

Also at this point you are already relying on translations of an ancient text which have their own degree of distortion through interpretation - granted it is lesser than the common folk through attempts at being scholarly but you can still find big differences between translations eg the word servant in place of the word slave etc.

 

[Ds83]

In the world today many people worship in different ways and using different names but aren’t they all really praying to the same one God or Reality? Explain why or why not you agree or disagree. This thread is mainly for those who worship some God but anyone may comment.

Some are similar and derived from the same archetypes, but have gone their own ways with time. So while Mene for Moon and king Minos may derive from a common Manu figure found in proto indo european myths, they should not be seen as a 1 for 1 match.

Further, the over development in many religions led to a simplification in the structure.

The 12 constellations for example all have their own stories attached to them. Yet we find figures such as Herakles whose life story came to embody all the 12 constellations. Representing a simplification of the Astral worshippings (or an example the early sciences as simply a means of understanding ones world and a simplification of the this information.

There are certainly similarities between cultures.

1. Creation in Greek, Hindu, Latin, Christianity and Norse accounts all match roughly including a void or time of nothingness before creation.

2. Typically the first generation of gods and men known as the Golden Age. See greek Golden age, golden age of the Jotuns, or the preflood biblical people living near 1000 year lives.

3. The period ends in a rebellion, war and flood. Seen in the Titanomachy in Greek leading to flood of Deucalion, the Aesir vs the Jotuns and death of Ymir in Norse causing a flood, and the flood of Noah.

4. We see a foundation of the new and the agricultural coming to odds with the old pastoral.
This is the Trojan war Herakles fights in (after killing Albion/ Lalebion upon his 12 labors). Or the Trojan war after this following theft of Helen of Troy (sister to Castor and Pollux) and the 10000 ships launched.
This is Aeneas and the Romans vs the Albans and the Sabines following Sabine bride theft.
Its the Aesir vs Vanir in the Norse sagas after theft of Idunn.
Or the Cainanite war following moses crossing red sea and 14 labors to wed Rachel and Leah given by Laban to Jacob, father of 12 tribes of Israel.
Or the Tuatha de Danann and their ships sailing to Ireland to make war upon the Fomorians.


5. The death of the Golden sun god giant.

Lugh killing Balor of the evil eye, or Loki killing Baldr the golden sun god, or Achilles killed by Paris (Alexander). Or David killing Goliath.

6. The Journey to the underworld.
Seen when Odin tries to retrieve Baldr. Or the Irish Voyage of Bran. Or the Welsh Bran the Blessed crow. Or Odysseus and seeing Achilles shade in underworld.

Each of these stories became their own thing though with their own cultural flavors and tones that represent a deep cultural tie and a part of heritage.

While its good to see the links between them, i think its important to hold each to its own too and not let either be washed away or assimilated by another.

 

[1213]

Errr, no.
Have you not heard of idioms and parables?

Bible explains them, so we don't need interpretations for them.

 

[Maninthemiddle]

Most people put Reliigion before God

 

[Trailblazer]

Most people put Reliigion before God

I sure don't. I don't even like organized religion, even my own!

 

[Maninthemiddle]

I sure don't. I don't even like organized religion, even my own!

Great, then you will not be spiritually constrained and held back by man made rules that are culturally motivated.

 

[Trailblazer]

Great, then you will not be spiritually constrained and held back by man made rules that are culturally motivated.

No, I won't be. I only follow the teachings and Laws of Baha'u'llah, who I believe was a Messenger of God.
Those were written in His own pen, so I don't have to rely upon interpretations.

 

[soulsurvivor]

In the world today many people worship in different ways and using different names but aren’t they all really praying to the same one God or Reality? Explain why or why not you agree or disagree. This thread is mainly for those who worship some God but anyone may comment.

If you worship an angry, jealous, vengeful cruel god, then we are not worshipping the same god. I only believe in kind, forgiving, loving gods.