In my view the Bahai faith permits execution by burning, so are you sure it is the same God as yours which forbids execution?
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Aren’t we all really worshipping the same God?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
It seems a near certainty you'd stand by it even if it was explained to you. Such is the blessing and bane of the unshakeable faith of dogmatic fundamentalism, which atheists as well as theists can hold.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I know nothing about this. Do you have a citation for this statement? Thanks
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I agree with you. It's that LH is claiming that any worship of any God is really worshipping the same God that Baha'is believe in... they just call that God by a different name. But if people define their God or Gods differently and have different beliefs and practices, then I don't think LH's claim is accurate.
Because he is a Baha'i, I think what he's trying to argue is that since, for Baha'is, there only one God, and all religions are one, that all people are really worshipping that one true God. They just call him by different names. But those religions also believe different things about their God... even how many Gods there are... and what that God wants from them. And some ancient religions did believe their God wanted human or animal sacrifices.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Here's the quote from Baha'u'llah. Then one from the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. And then the Baha'i Universal House of Justice
"Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another's life, him also shall ye put to death. Take ye hold of the precepts of God with all your strength and power, and abandon the ways of the ignorant. Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book. He, verily, hath power to ordain whatsoever He pleaseth."
With regard to this provision, Shoghi Effendi in a letter written on his behalf gives the following explanation:
In the Aqdas Bahá'u'lláh has given death as the penalty for murder. However, He has permitted life imprisonment as an alternative. Both practices would be in accordance with His Laws. Some of us may not be able to grasp the wisdom of this when it disagrees with our own limited vision; but we must accept it, knowing His Wisdom, His Mercy and His Justice are perfect and for the salvation of the entire world. If a man were falsely condemned to die, can we not believe Almighty God would compensate him a thousandfold, in the next world, for this human injustice? You cannot give up a salutary law just because on rare occasions the innocent may be punished.
"...merely the fundamental principles of the punishments for murder and arson are given in the Kitab-i-Aqdas. Willful murder is to be punished either by capital punishment or life imprisonment. Such matters as degrees of offense and whether any extenuating circumstances are to be taken into account, and which of the two prescribed punishments is to be the norm are left to the Universal House of Justice to decide in light of prevailing conditions when the law is in operation. Arson, as you yourself can see from the newspapers, is becoming an increasingly frequent offense-scarcely a day passes without some building being burned or blown up, often causing agonizing death to innocent people. Bahá'u'lláh prescribes that a person who burns a house intentionally is to be burned or imprisoned for life, bur again, the application of these punishments, the method of carrying them out and the fixing of degrees of offense are left to the Universal House of Justice. Obviously there is a tremendous difference in the degree of the offense of a person who burns down an empty warehouse from that of one who sets fire to a school full of children."
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks CG.
Unfettered
A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
"Are we all really worshipping the same God but by different names?"
Conceptually, probably. In reality, probably not.
Conceptually, probably. In reality, probably not.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That's the question. The God of a Born-Again Christian is very different than the God of a Baha'i... or a Hindu... or a Jew. Then Atheists have a legitimate question... are any of these Gods real? They too easily could have been made-up. But, if people are taught to believe in them, these Gods do become very real... for the believer.
But, as you know, even Baha'is redefine who God is. There are not many Gods. God is not a trinity made up of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Baha'is don't believe that any of those Gods are real. They have their own concept of who God is, and they are trying to get others to believe in that God, the God as defined by the Baha'is.
No Baha'i knows God, nor does any other person of any other faith, or no faith, know God.
Thus knowing this, it is impossible to redefine a God that can never be defined.
The Oneness of God can be only found in the Oneness of the Messengers, otherwise a person's concept of God is erroneous.
Regards Tony
Sure, the founder of the Baha'i faith known as Baha'u'llah wrote a book called the Kitab-i-Aqdas which he described as his most holy book and which contains the bulk of his law.
In the Kitab-i-Aqdas it states;
'Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death.'
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 34-49
Kind regards.
McBell
Unbound
Make up your mind
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Men did, and men will end it in whatever way they want. So, what is the need for God/Gods/Goddesses? Thanks to your God for spiritual help.
Nah, I do not have a wavering faith. I have abandoned faith in favor of evidence.
Ah! Those uneducated people from Middle-East over the centuries?
Abbas (Abdul-Baha) and Shoghi were great magicians. They could bring out pigeons from their sleeves whenever Bahaollah said something which is considered foolish today, like in case of women or LGBTQ. Now this responsibility is with their House of Justice since Bahaollah's line has ended.
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But that second entry would also cover things like angels that are categorically not gods.
zakariaH
New Member
It is possible that some monotheistic religions did worship the same God and named it differently due to their language. For example, Jehovah and Allah may have been the same deity at one point but as time has gone on all monotheistic religions (except Islam) have deviated from their original message. This means the idea of God and who is being worshipped has changed meaning in todays world, it is hard to say that everyone is worshipping the same God.
Essentially, since it is evident that the Torah and NT/OT bibles have been changed, the idea that we all worship the same God is not true in modern times. The attributes of God in each religion are fundamentally different and have major contentions with the respective faiths of today.
Look at orthodox Christians, they worship the trinity, and Islam worships Allah alone.
State of the Thread so far (as I read it):
Lumpers continue to lump all deity concepts together and explain why vastly different things should be considered part of some One God.
Anti-lumpers, on the other hand, continue to point out that different things are different, and should not be lumped together...
Lumpers continue to lump all deity concepts together and explain why vastly different things should be considered part of some One God.
Anti-lumpers, on the other hand, continue to point out that different things are different, and should not be lumped together...
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do the Scriptures of a religion tells things about the deities of that religion? If not, how do we know about Vishnu or Shiva? Or how do we know about the God of Israel? And how did early Christians come up with the Trinity? They must have used New Testament and Bible verses to support their belief?
So yes, make up your mind. Your religion tells us about God. That he sent several manifestations/messengers. That God's messages have been progressive. And what is God like? Is he all-knowing, all-loving etc.? How do you know that?
Is Jesus, literally, the son of God? Is the Holy Spirit God? If this is wrong, how do you know it's wrong? If there are not many Gods, how do you know that? Then about the different names? I gave you one name, Baal. Now what about the Egyptian Gods? And did Moses and the Israelites consider any of them real? But Baha'is do? I doubt it. Unless you consider Ra real? Or maybe Amun? Or maybe the people just made them up?
Here's a list of Egyptian Gods....
Male[edit]
- Aker – A god of Earth and the horizon[3]
- Amun – A creator god, patron deity of the city of Thebes, and the preeminent deity in Egypt during the New Kingdom[4]
- Anhur – A god of war and hunting[5][6][7]
- Aten – Sun disk deity who became the focus of the monolatrous or monotheistic Atenist belief system in the reign of Akhenaten[8]
- Atum – A creator god and solar deity, first god of the Ennead[9]
- Bennu – A solar and creator deity, depicted as a heron[10]
- Geb – An earth god and member of the Ennead[11]
- Hapi – Personification of the Nile flood[12]
- Horus – A major god, usually shown as a falcon or as a human child, linked with the sky, the sun, kingship, protection, and healing. Often said to be the son of Osiris and Isis.[13]
- Khepri – A solar creator god, often treated as the morning form of Ra and represented by a scarab beetle[14]
- Khnum (Khnemu) – A ram god, the patron deity of Elephantine, who was said to control the Nile flood and give life to gods and humans[15][16]
- Khonsu – A moon god, son of Amun and Mut[17]
- Maahes (Mahes, Mihos) – A lion god, son of Bastet[18][19][6]
- Montu – A god of war and the sun, worshipped at Thebes[20]
- Nefertum – God of the lotus blossom from which the sun god rose at the beginning of time. Son of Ptah and Sekhmet.[21]
- Nemty – Falcon god, worshipped in Middle Egypt,[22] who appears in myth as a ferryman for greater gods[23]
- Neper – A god of grain[24]
- Osiris – god of death and resurrection who rules the underworld and enlivens vegetation, the sun god, and deceased souls[25]
- Ptah – A creator deity and god of craftsmen, the patron god of Memphis[26]
- Set – An ambivalent god, characterized by violence, chaos, and strength, connected with the desert. Mythological murderer of Osiris and enemy of Horus, but also a supporter of the king.[27]
- Shu – Embodiment of wind or air, a member of the Ennead[28]
- Sobek – Crocodile god, worshipped in the Faiyum and at Kom Ombo[29]
- Sopdu – A god of the sky and of Egypt's eastern border regions[30]
- Thoth – A moon god, and a god of writing and scribes, and patron deity of Hermopolis[31]
- Wadj-wer – Personification of the Mediterranean sea or lakes of the Nile Delta[32]
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Female[edit]
- Amunet – Female counterpart of Amun and a member of the Ogdoad[3]
- Anuket – A feathered headdress wearing goddess of Egypt's southern frontier regions, particularly the lower cataracts of the Nile[33][7]
- Bastet – Goddess represented as a cat or lioness, patroness of the city of Bubastis, linked with protection from evil[34]
- Bat – Cow goddess from early in Egyptian history, eventually absorbed by Hathor[35]
- Hathor (Egyptian: Het-Hert) – One of the most important goddesses, linked with the sky, the sun, sexuality and motherhood, music and dance, foreign lands and goods, and the afterlife. One of many forms of the Eye of Ra.[36]
- Hatmehit - Fish goddess
- Heqet – Frog goddess said to protect women in childbirth[37]
- Hesat – A maternal cow goddess[38][39]
- Imentet (Amentet) – An afterlife goddess closely linked with Isis and Hathor[40][19]
- Isis – Wife of Osiris and mother of Horus, linked with funerary rites, motherhood, protection, and magic. She became a major deity in Greek and Roman religion.[41]
- Maat – Goddess who personified truth, justice, and order[42]
- Menhit – A lioness goddess[43]
- Mut – Consort of Amun, worshipped at Thebes[44]
- Neith – A creator and hunter goddess, patron of the city of Sais in Lower Egypt[45]
- Nekhbet (Nekhebit) – A vulture goddess, the tutelary deity of Upper Egypt[46]
- Nephthys (Egyptian: Nebet-Het) – A member of the Ennead, the consort of Set, who mourned Osiris alongside Isis[47]
- Nepit – A goddess of grain, female counterpart of Neper[48]
- Nut – A sky goddess, a member of the Ennead[49]
- Pakhet – A lioness goddess mainly worshipped in the area around Beni Hasan[50]
- Renenutet – An agricultural goddess[51]
- Satet – A goddess of Egypt's southern frontier regions[52][6]
- Sekhmet – A lioness goddess, both destructive and violent and capable of warding off disease, protector of the pharaohs who led them in war, the consort of Ptah and one of many forms of the Eye of Ra.[53]
- Tefnut – Lioness goddess of moisture and a member of the Ennead[54]
- Wadjet (Uatchit) – A cobra goddess, the tutelary deity of Lower Egypt[55]
- Wosret (Egyptian: Usret) – A goddess of Thebes[56]
Both male and female forms[edit]
- Anubis/Anput – The god/goddess of funerals, embalming and protector of the dead[57]
- Hapi – Personification of the Nile flood[12]
- Heh – Personification of infinity and a member of the Ogdoad[58]
- Kek – The god of Chaos and Darkness, as well as being the concept of primordial darkness. Kek's female form is known as Kauket.
- Nu (Nun) – Personification of the formless, watery disorder from which the world emerged at creation and a member of the Ogdoad[59]
- Ra (Re) – The foremost Egyptian sun god, involved in creation and the afterlife. Mythological ruler of the gods, father of every Egyptian king, and the patron god of Heliopolis.[60]
- Tatenen – Personification of the first mound of earth to emerge from chaos in ancient Egyptian creation myths[61]
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I think it's important to understand why Baha'is want to lump all the Gods together. Not only do they need there to be only one God, but they need all the religions to be from that one God. And they acknowledge the differences in the religion and explain those differences as being because God gave specific and limited information to certain people. He gave them laws and moral codes that fit their culture at that time. Later, in a different place, the people got more information, more updated information. They got new rules and moral codes.State of the Thread so far (as I read it):
Lumpers continue to lump all deity concepts together and explain why vastly different things should be considered part of some One God.
Anti-lumpers, on the other hand, continue to point out that different things are different, and should not be lumped together...
So, there is already "God given" differences in religions, then Baha'is say that the people added wrong interpretation and man-made traditions into the religion. We finally get to today. Baha'is believe their rules and information are the newest teachings from that one true God. These rules are meant to unite all the people the world over. That if we believe in their prophet and follow his teachings, we will have world unity and be able to live in peace.
This "lumping" is what one Baha'is, Loverofhumanity, believes is true and is necessary for us to get away from believing our Gods and our religions are different, and that ours is the only correct and true religion. He'd like us to see that all religions are essentially one. And that all along, we've been praying and worshipping the same God... just calling him different names. Maybe.... but maybe not. I'm an "anti-lumper". I think it's much more likely that people just made up their religions and their deities.
For the sake of unity, I'd be more in favor of "dumping" all the old Gods instead of "lumping" them. But that's because I don't believe they were necessarily real.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is do not lump all the Gods together, we say that we believe only in the one true God.
“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73
“Every created thing will be enabled (so great is this reflecting power) to reveal the potentialities of its pre-ordained station, will recognize its capacity and limitations, and will testify to the truth that “He, verily, is God; there is none other God besides Him.” Gleanings, p. 262
For the sake of truth, I'd be more in favor of "dumping" all the old Gods instead of "lumping" them, and that's because they lead people to have false beliefs about God.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is do not 'need' anything, we just believe certain things.
Baha'is do not lump all the Gods together, as we do not even believe that the Gods some people believe in are even real.
Baha'is only believe in the one true God.
The God is the Qur'an is the closest approximation to the one true God that Baha'u'llah wrote about.
I cannot speak for the other Baha'is but I believe that the God of the Bible was terribly misrepresented, particularly in the Old Testament.
Moreover, what many people 'believe' about God is off by about 100,000 miles.
“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167