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Arriving at a Theistic Belief

Sheldon

Veteran Member
You are free to believe as you choose to believe, and to give your reasons if you wish. You are equally free to extend that courtesy to others, if you see fit to do so.

Using logic and reason to lever people out of beliefs not arrived at by that method, is likely to prove futile. You are obviously of at least average if not above average intelligence, yet you seem a little tardy in learning this lesson.

Well I can only say that in debating topics, I have never tried to lever anyone out of anything, that in my experience is as you say pretty futile. I can only ask what a belief or argument is based on and from there try to treat all claims the same.

It's not lost on me that this kind of disputatious exchange is painful to some theists, but it's not as if I go door to door, or seek people out to disagree with their beliefs. If anyone brings belief into a public forum for debate, then my view is that is their choice. It's not like I single out the theists at parties, just to decry their cherished beliefs. :D Though now I say it, it does sound like a sneaky way to have some fun, or get a shoeing of course.

Tbh I've never understood why people ever get annoyed or angry in a debate forum, as one can walk away anytime, and trust me there isn't an insult or a name I've not had aimed at me, and not just by theists either.

I've met some atheists online who hold some pretty bizarre and idiotic notions, and got pretty tetchy when their ideas were subjected to critical debate. Which I always find amusing, if the only think I learn from a debate, is that some ideas I have are not as sound as I might have imagined, then that is still a good day. For me an idea not examined and critically scrutinised, isn't worth having. I appreciate the compliment, but I flatter myself I'm a middling intellect, and my formal education was mediocre at best. I've learned quite a bit form others online, it's seldom dull anyway.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why do you believe?

As of now, it's because I witness and see the magical nature of Quran and Ahlulbayt (A) and witness the dark sorcery working by deceptions and lies to cover that light.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
True reason, true understanding, may be more mercurial than you conceive them to be, and are best arrived at with subtlety and patience.

Those Victorian butterfly collectors both destroyed the beauty, and missed the true nature, of their subjects by pinning them down.
These platitudes don't actually say anything of substance.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
You are doing it again..
You try to limit people to binary decisions of yay or nay.
Sometimes an issue can be distilled to a yes or no answer.
But I'll play. In what way is my question unreasonable?

It is a form of bullying.
No it isn't. You just feel threatened because of the weakness of your argument.

You won't find truth like that, but I don't think that you are even looking for it.
And as I have repeatedly said, science and reason doesn't deal in "truth". What even is "truth"?

You hide behind a veil of empirical rationality.
In what way am I hiding, and from what?
Ironically, it is the spiritualist/religionist who hides from reality behind a veil of woo.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
So here is a technique used sometimes.

P1: There is no evidence for the supernatural.
C: Therefore it is unreasonable to claim it as true*.
A tad simplistic, but eminently reasonable.
(Note: this is not the same as "even though there is no evidence for the supernatural, we can't rule it out")

*C can vary but it is always with your tribe somehow "wrong", "bad", "irrational" or some other negative evaluation.
Now I have never read in a book or otherwise found someone who can make a deduction that is both valid and sound.
It what way is that neither sound nor valid?

In other words for the following fact of the everyday world as connected to this:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12
You seem to have no idea why you keep posting that link.

Science as a result of its methodology can show that there is no evidence for the supernatural. But science can't tell you if it useful or not to believe in it.
What do you mean by "science"?
Rational thinking can certainly tell us that believing extraordinary claims that have no supporting evidence can be problematic. For example, I tell you that drinking bleach will bring you to a state of spiritual enlightenment.

That is in effect the Is-Ought problem. How ever you try, if you are no different than all other humans in recorded history, you won't be able to show in any form as an evaluation to the effect of the ought as objective, universal, external to the mind and what not.
:confused:
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
If you can't give objective evidence for that reasonable, my world breaks down. You have to come through. The whole of humanity rests on your shoulders. Evidence!!!
With all due respect, your world seems to have broken down some time ago.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Sometimes an issue can be distilled to a yes or no answer.
But I'll play. In what way is my question unreasonable?
...

Again, there is no strong objective reason as with evidence. You are using a subjective standard and so are they. And so am I.
If you accept naturalism, evidence by science and logic, then yes. But you don't have to. That is the problem.

Nobody has been able to make all of the world objective, neither with science, philosophy nor religion.
In the end you use for your reason a subjective standard. As the rest of us.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
We can start with the Bible's extraordinary prescience, much of it verifiable since it concerns Israel since 1948!
Oh dear, not this again.
The Bible does not predict any future, real world events. The words in the original texts bear no relation to the meaning arrived at through tortuous semantic gymnastics. They are simply figments of your (and others') imagination.

Note: for a prediction to be a prediction, you must be able to point to the predicted event before it happens.
So, can you tell us of any specific events in the near future that the Bible is predicting?
No. Thought not.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Classic question begging and argument from personal incredulity.
You started with the assumption that "there must be something else" and then accepted whatever seemed to confirm this pre-existing conclusion.
There is literally no evidence or rational argument for the supernatural.

I did not claim there was. I responded to the OP question with my personal answer.

Of course, I understand that you feel that you are able to justify your beliefs to yourself, but every religionist believes that about their beliefs. And they will often reject others' "evidential" belief claims just as others reject theirs.

Again, I'm trying to change anyone's mind but offering my own journey in response to the OP.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
And as I have repeatedly said, science and reason doesn't deal in "truth". What even is "truth"?
Clearly, you have no idea.

In what way am I hiding, and from what?
You say "If something is undetectable to anyone, is it reasonable or unreasonable to insist that it does exist?"

In other words, you claim that it is not reasonable to believe in G-d because "it cannot be detected".
Of course G-d can't be detected, in the way that you demand.
..so you hide from belief in this false sense of "reasonableness" :)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
A tad simplistic, but eminently reasonable.
(Note: this is not the same as "even though there is no evidence for the supernatural, we can't rule it out")

It what way is that neither sound nor valid?

You seem to have no idea why you keep posting that link.

What do you mean by "science"?
Rational thinking can certainly tell us that believing extraordinary claims that have no supporting evidence can be problematic. For example, I tell you that drinking bleach will bring you to a state of spiritual enlightenment.

:confused:

So:
P1: There is no evidence for the supernatural.
C: Therefore it is unreasonable to claim it as true.

Let us rewrite:
P1: The supernatural is without evidence (short - S is WE)
C; To claim something without evidence as true is unreasonable ( short WE is U)
Thus we get;
P1: S is WE
C: WE is U

That is invalid since C doesn't follow from P1. Unless you don't understand a deduction and what makes it valid.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
If you believe that material existence is all there is, then you will naturally try to explain or understand all phenomena in those terms.
This is where religionists so often trip themselves up, by assuming that everyone follows their same mental process (essentially equation begging and confirmation bias).

The reason why we suspect or accept (not "believe") that material existence may be all there is, is because that is what all the evidence points to. (Note: I am talking about actual evidence here, not personal opinion and anecdote).
When evidence comes to light that suggests something else, then our position will change accordingly.

Ironically, it is the religionist who assumes there must be something else, and bases their position on that baseless assumption.

I understand that modern science has made considerable progress in monitoring the way sensation, experience, and response to stimuli register in the brain. Clearly, this does not mean the experience originates in the brain, nor that the entire kaleidoscopic range of human experience can be viewed purely as a neurological function. .
All the evidence points towards consciousness being a product of the physical brain. Every attempt to demonstrate otherwise has failed.

At the very least, you must accept that the measurable neurological response originates normally as a result of sensory stimuli. The brain is responding to something, it is not manufacturing the experience itself; except, as you argue, in the case of hallucination
You appear to be getting confused here. Of course the brain responds to stimulus, but that response appears to be manufactured by the brain.
And yes, the stimulus that the brain is responding can indeed be manufactured by the brain itself. Or do you think that the nightmare that frightens the child actually exists out there somewhere, independent of the child's brain?

Hallucinations are generally accompanied by a range of other pathologies.
Not so. They can occur due to a range of reasons, sometimes spontaneously and sometimes without any other indication of any condition. They can even be induced to order in an entirely healthy brain and body.

When a person betraying other symptoms of psychosis tells us they have been receiving messages from God, we can perhaps dismiss this as a hallucination. When a person tells us that they have had a profound spiritual experience which has led them to a new, infinitely more satisfying and productive way of living than they had been capable of before, we would do well to at least look at the evidence with an open mind.
Indeed. That is what the rational thinker always does. What they don't do is assume that messages from god are a thing in the first pace.
So, are you claiming that any personal moment of realisation that leads to a change in behaviour must have an external, divine source?

"...Confined in a hospital [our friend's] gorge rose as he bitterly called out: "If there is a God, he hasn't done much for me!"
But later, alone in his room...like a thunderbolt, a great thought came. It crowded out all else:
'Who are you to say there is no God?'
This man recounts that hs tumbled out of bed to his knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of Infinite Power and Love..."
Cool story bro. Not sure why you think that contains any "evidence" though.

Easy enough to dismiss the experience above as a hallucination if you are so inclined. But consider this; the man who had that experience walked out of an institution whose doctors had pronounced him a hopeless case, and never went back there. Instead, a once hopeless drunk, he went on to lead a full and productive life characterised by love and service towards others. If his experience was really just a hallucination, wouldn't we expect it to have led him in the opposite direction - not out of a psychiatric ward, but into one?
So you are saying that such epiphanies and changes of heart must be assumed to be caused by something external to the brain.
You should really reserve judgement until there is something more than just your desire for it to be true.

That man's experience is by no means a one off be, I've personally met and spoken with many like him. History and literature is replete with other examples;
But at the end of the day, you are still just assuming that an event that can be perfectly well explained through the internal workings of the brain must somehow be evidence of a god.

Tolstoy's account of Prince Andrei's epiphany at the dressing station during the Battle of Borodino being imo one of the most transcendent passages of writing in the Western canon.
And how, exactly, is a fictional character's experience evidence for a god orchestrating such moments of clarity?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Clearly, you have no idea.
Well, I don't consider it to be a thing, but you keep using the term so I was asking you.
Do you not know?

You say "If something is undetectable to anyone, is it reasonable or unreasonable to insist that it does exist?"
That was the question I posed, yes.

In other words, you claim that it is not reasonable to believe in G-d because "it cannot be detected".
No. I asked you for your position on the issue of belief. I was not stating mine.

Of course G-d can't be detected, in the way that you demand.
I haven't demanded that god be detected.

..so you hide from belief in this false sense of "reasonableness" :)
No idea what point you are trying to make here.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
So:
P1: There is no evidence for the supernatural.
C: Therefore it is unreasonable to claim it as true.

Let us rewrite:
P1: The supernatural is without evidence (short - S is WE)
C; To claim something without evidence as true is unreasonable ( short WE is U)
Thus we get;
P1: S is WE
C: WE is U

That is invalid since C doesn't follow from P1. Unless you don't understand a deduction and what makes it valid.
Obviously, if you believe that it is reasonable to insist that something exists despite there being no evidence for its existence, then you will claim it doesn't follow.
However, such a belief is clearly unreasonable. ;)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Obviously, if you believe that it is reasonable to insist that something exists despite there being no evidence for its existence, then you will claim it doesn't follow.
However, such a belief is clearly unreasonable. ;)

No, just that both versions are without evidence or logic. You have no evidence and not logic to show it. It is an opinion/belief not based on evidence or logic.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It is a bad thing, imo. It implies that only that which can be shown to exist through scientific observation can be acceptable as evidence to rational human beings.
That is false.

We are able to evaluate historical phenomena, and make reasonable conclusions. That does not entail empirical observation.
Without reliable, testable, repeatable data, any conclusion is speculative to a degree. Historical accounts are no exception. No rational thinker would insist on the absolute veracity of thousand year old anecdotal accounts.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No, it isn't. It is more complex than you suggest.
Either all these people are being irrational, or there is something more going on.
Do these people have no reason for their beliefs?
I don't think so. They have reasons, that you wish to deny as being rational.

You usually do this by crying "fallacy", and terminating the debate.
We know that people act irrationally through natural causes, so why do you think a load of people acting irrationally must have a supernatural cause.

As Sam Harris said..."If you wake up tomorrow morning thinking that saying a few Latin words over your pancakes is going to turn them into the body of Elvis Presley, you have lost your mind. But if you think more or less the same thing about a cracker and the body of Jesus, you're just a Catholic."

And citing the number of people experiencing x as an argument for the truth of x is classic ad pop.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
There is no burden of proof here Sheldon, we are neither in a court of law nor are we conducting an experiment under laboratory conditions.
But we are presenting claims and arguments. Surely I don't have to explain what "burden of proof" entails in this context?
 
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