Arriving at a Theistic Belief

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yeah, that actually made it worse.

Use more words.
What is the everyday world and is subjectivity a part of it?

 

[BilliardsBall]

If this is something you really want, you had better offer something beyond bare subjective assertions, and irrational arguments. As I remain dubious.

You remain skeptical, not dubious.

So far, against "Israel has fulfilled 60 specific prophecies since 1948, including the prediction that it would be established in 1948," you have "lucky guesses".

 

[Sheldon]

You remain skeptical, not dubious.

I am sceptical, and I remain dubious, they are not mutually exclusive.

So far, against "Israel has fulfilled 60 specific prophecies since 1948, including the prediction that it would be established in 1948," you have "lucky guesses".

You keep making this bare unevidenced claim, and I have explained why asserting that even well evidenced predictions coming absolutely true require divine intervention is irrational , sadly you simply ignore this, so I can only infer you have no answer and are happy to keep repeating your unevidenced and irrational assertion. The last part is a straw man, as it is not what I said at all.

 

[DNB]

What "facts" would they be?

Xerox, ..try sending one.

 

[DNB]

The Church seems to think it's a possibility.
Church of England to consider 'animal baptism'

But as you are well aware (hopefully!) I wasn't referring to animals following a specific human religion. The point was about some animals showing a "spiritual" side. Maybe try dealing with that rather than failed attempts at deflection through humour. Leave that to the experts.

You've spotted a camel with a yarmulke on its head?

 

[DNB]

There is no single, universal answer.
However, one major element would be supremacist ideological intolerance and dehumanisation*.
People are inherently empathetic and altruistic. They generally don't feel it is ok to kill simply in order to get what they want. To override this, ideologies use the dehumanisation of outgroups. If people are convinced that others are somehow not really the same, then all sorts of appalling behaviour can be justified in the greater good.
Societies where such ideologies are absent tend to rank higher in safety, security, welfare, health, etc.

* This includes things like organised crime, not just religious and political.

Why is that?

 

[DNB]

A single sentence devoid of facts, you're priceless, and "case closed"? I don't think you have a very good grasp of how public debate works.

Are you still watching Sheldon on TV?

 

[Sheldon]

You've spotted a camel with a yarmulke on its head?

"Seeing Spirituality in Chimpanzees
Some animals have been observed performing the same rituals over and over, leading scientists to speculate that they might have a sense of the sacred.
By Barbara J. King"

"Mysterious chimpanzee behaviour could be 'sacred rituals' and show that chimps believe in god. The ritual has similarities with the building of shrines or cairns, a human ritual that has been happening for thousands of years and across civilisations."

"What do chimp ‘temples’ tell us about the evolution of religion?"

While none of this conclusive, it puts your sweeping claim that no other animals are spiritual in the correct context, as unevidenced bs you simply made up.

 

[DNB]

"Seeing Spirituality in Chimpanzees
Some animals have been observed performing the same rituals over and over, leading scientists to speculate that they might have a sense of the sacred.
By Barbara J. King"

"Mysterious chimpanzee behaviour could be 'sacred rituals' and show that chimps believe in god. The ritual has similarities with the building of shrines or cairns, a human ritual that has been happening for thousands of years and across civilisations."

"What do chimp ‘temples’ tell us about the evolution of religion?"

While none of this conclusive, it puts your sweeping claim that no other animals are spiritual in the correct context, as unevidenced bs you simply made up.

You're trying to undermine my assertion based on an example of only one animal, that is not even conclusive?
Do your shoes have Velcro straps?

 

[Sheldon]

You're trying to undermine my assertion based on an example of only one animal, that is not even conclusive?
Do your shoes have Velcro straps?

Since your claim was an absolute moratorium on any other animal, one example is sufficient to refute it.

Quod erat demonstrandum

 

[DNB]

Since your claim was an absolute moratorium on any other animal, one example is sufficient to refute it.

Quod erat demonstrandum

Keep trying, you have yet to find one conclusive example.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I am sceptical, and I remain dubious, they are not mutually exclusive.



You keep making this bare unevidenced claim, and I have explained why asserting that even well evidenced predictions coming absolutely true require divine intervention is irrational , sadly you simply ignore this, so I can only infer you have no answer and are happy to keep repeating your unevidenced and irrational assertion. The last part is a straw man, as it is not what I said at all.

Example: "Israel will be surrounded by enemies who will attack her when she is reestablished as a Jewish nation:

Evidence: War that began on May 14/15, 1948 (the day modern Israel was established to find her ancient enemies still wanted to destroy her 2,500 years after Israel's diaspora)!

We have different definitions, certainly, for "evidence".

 

[Sheldon]

Keep trying, you have yet to find one conclusive example.

It represents objective scientific evidence your sweeping unevidenced claim was unfounded. This hilarious attempt to move the goalposts now, and try and try and shift the burden of proof is fooling no one champ.

As I asked you the first time you made your ludicrous and unevidenced claim, and several times since, what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support it? I think by now we can all see the answer.

In the meantime the scientific evidence undermining your claim is there for all to see, and just as with your original claim the only response you have is hand waving.

 

[Sheldon]

Example: "Israel will be surrounded by enemies who will attack her when she is reestablished as a Jewish nation:

Evidence: War that began on May 14/15, 1948 (the day modern Israel was established to find her ancient enemies still wanted to destroy her 2,500 years after Israel's diaspora)!

So the claim you are offering for a prediction is hardly extraordinary is it, they were already surrounded by enemies. However lets be generous, and assume this claim was unequivocal, and lets assume for the sake of argument the claim happened exactly as predicted, so what?

Even allowing the massive licence I've given here, the best you can claim is that something extraordinary and inexplicable has occurred. Your work is still all before you, to prove this required divine inspiration, as I already explained several times. Unless you're going to resort to an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

 

[DNB]

It represents objective scientific evidence your sweeping unevidenced claim was unfounded. This hilarious attempt to move the goalposts now, and try and try and shift the burden of proof is fooling no one champ.

As I asked you the first time you made your ludicrous and unevidenced claim, and several times since, what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support it? I think by now we can all see the answer.

In the meantime the scientific evidence undermining your claim is there for all to see, and just as with your original claim the only response you have is hand waving.

The only hilarious aspect about anything that I've stated, is that I bothered to impart such logic to you?
Einstein, animals have no moral or religion cognizance on any level, nor do they have the capacity to comprehend such concepts. That includes all non-human creatures on the earth.
Animals kill indiscriminately. A lion kills an antelope, a seal kills a penguin, an orcas kill squid - none of these actions have any moral implications to either the prey nor the predator. In other words, so many animals kill other animals to eat, how do you expect them to protest a theft, a slanderous remark, adultery or selfishness? Of course, they will never allow the same treatment that they do to others, to be done to them, but that's not out of justice, that's selfish self preservation.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So the claim you are offering for a prediction is hardly extraordinary is it, they were already surrounded by enemies. However lets be generous, and assume this claim was unequivocal, and lets assume for the sake of argument the claim happened exactly as predicted, so what?

Even allowing the massive licence I've given here, the best you can claim is that something extraordinary and inexplicable has occurred. Your work is still all before you, to prove this required divine inspiration, as I already explained several times. Unless you're going to resort to an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Think about what you're asking "So, they were already surrounded by enemies."

Redact to "A people without a homeland, in diaspora and under persecution for millennia, come back to their homeland, to find their enemies still wanting to destroy them after millennia . . . "

It's not as you wrote "something extraordinary and inexplicable has occurred". It's 60 prophecies, 60 somethings extraordinary.

Extreme prescience demands that we--if we're honest--assume the prescience is real or else someone manipulated behind the scenes. God shows extreme prescience in the Bible regarding scientific discoveries and world history.

 

[Sheldon]

The only hilarious aspect about anything that I've stated, is that I bothered to impart such logic to you?
Einstein, animals have no moral or religion cognizance on any level, nor do they have the capacity to comprehend such concepts. That includes all non-human creatures on the earth.
Animals kill indiscriminately. A lion kills an antelope, a seal kills a penguin, an orcas kill squid - none of these actions have any moral implications to either the prey nor the predator. In other words, so many animals kill other animals to eat, how do you expect them to protest a theft, a slanderous remark, adultery or selfishness? Of course, they will never allow the same treatment that they do to others, to be done to them, but that's not out of justice, that's selfish self preservation.

You're just repeating your unevidenced claim ad nauseam. Not once have you demonstrated any objective evidence to support it, I shan't even feign surprise that having made your unevidenced assertion, you now seek to reverse the burden of proof.

 

[osgart]

Isn't it horribly redundant that people ask for physical evidence of a deity? People who buy into there being a God infer a God from things that are evident in reality.

So a more productive question for atheists is: What reasons do theists have for inferring that a deity exists?

Who knows!, it might lead to different kinds of debate, or discussions. It's quite clear that deities are not physical objects in the world.

 

[lukethethird]

Isn't it horribly redundant that people ask for physical evidence of a deity? People who buy into there being a God infer a God from things that are evident in reality.

So a more productive question for atheists is: What reasons do theists have for inferring that a deity exists?

Who knows!, it might lead to different kinds of debate, or discussions. It's quite clear that deities are not physical objects in the world.

The real question is: why believe a fictitious character from The Bible stories is real and why continue to believe in adulthood? I would never ask for physical evidence for God, that would be silly, like asking for physical evidence for Casper the ghost.

 

[DNB]

You're just repeating your unevidenced claim ad nauseam. Not once have you demonstrated any objective evidence to support it, I shan't even feign surprise that having made your unevidenced assertion, you now seek to reverse the burden of proof.

Wow, you are overtly and categorically incorrigible??? You need evidence to prove whether or not animals kill incessantly and indiscriminately, and without compunction?
They eat their prey alive - what part of their constitution do you not understand? And like a pedantic *** you request proof - like I've said to you enough times, open your oblivious eyes!