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Arriving at a Theistic Belief

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
According to nature we are supposed to feel and sense things. According to nature we can love and hate the situations we get ourselves into. According to nature memory is supposed to serve us to make better circumstances according to reason. That smacks of intentionality that we exist this way. Nature is a rough draft, or sketch upon physical reality. Life wants a journey otherwise life would have grown no senses, no feelings, no limbs to act with. Life would have no sound nor any fury to rage if it wasn't intended to be this way.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
According to nature we are supposed to feel and sense things. According to nature we can love and hate the situations we get ourselves into. According to nature memory is supposed to serve us to make better circumstances according to reason. That smacks of intentionality that we exist this way. Nature is a rough draft, or sketch upon physical reality. Life wants a journey otherwise life would have grown no senses, no feelings, no limbs to act with. Life would have no sound nor any fury to rage if it wasn't intended to be this way.

Nature is not a sentient thing, is does not make decisions or have plans, that's not how evolution works, and natural selection is also influenced by chance or random events, it works relentlessly but insentiently, traits that provide any advantage in surviving lone enough to find a mate and reproduce are obviously more likely to be passed on for that reason. We have evolved brains capable of problem solving, and this has enabled us deny to a certain extent, our evolved instincts, but not all of them and not completely. We don't have entirely free will, but we do have a certain amount of autonomy, governed by circumstance and our biology.

The emotions you are describing are fury or rage are part of all animals fight or flight response, they are evolved.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It's often argued that theists start with a belief in a literal deity (for whatever reasons) then try to find evidence to support it. However I think many people do start with what they consider to be evidence first, even if it's not generally accepted as such.

Why do you believe? Does belief necessarily require evidence? If so, what qualifies?
I think people conceptualize "God" according to their own nature, same as they conceptualize reality. If we have a contentious nature, we see reality and God in a similar way. If we have a forgiving nature, we see reality and God in the same way, and so on. And as for "evidence"; we see the evidence that we naturally or automatically look for, because it's what we expect to be there.

We think we're a whole lot more 'open-minded' and logical about it all than we actually are.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
What is a "literal deity"?

Also I believe for a multitude of reasons (personal experience, argument, witnessing certain works, etc), people have beliefs I think because they think there is evidence for them and they will withstand the tides of life, and what qualifies concerning God can be personal experiences, arguments, and so on.

I favor experience greatly because if someone said to me "El Chapo is in the basement" I would not first argue with them over if that is even possible, I would just go into the basement and if he's not there I would say "you're full of it." To me God is the same way. Theists claim omnipresence and all sorts of things, so "show Yourself" is valid to me as a response to that.
Why are you letting other people define God for you? Why not take some time and really consider the possibility for yourself?

If you keep letting other people define God for you, it's very unlikely that any of their concepts or definitions will resonate as true for you, because they are not you. The God ideal just doesn't work that way. You have to explore the ideal for yourself to gain any real impact from it.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
It's often argued that theists start with a belief in a literal deity (for whatever reasons) then try to find evidence to support it. However I think many people do start with what they consider to be evidence first, even if it's not generally accepted as such.

Why do you believe? Does belief necessarily require evidence? If so, what qualifies?
Statistical distribution, in space and time, of beliefs does not seem to confirm your claim.

Ciao

- viole
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
It's often argued that theists start with a belief in a literal deity (for whatever reasons) then try to find evidence to support it. However I think many people do start with what they consider to be evidence first, even if it's not generally accepted as such.

Why do you believe? Does belief necessarily require evidence? If so, what qualifies?

God won't allow me to tell you. If I told you, others would know that I am right. If others knew that I was right about God, and knew why I thought this way, they would believe that I am a prophet of God. If they believed that, they would worship me. God hates it when someone else is worshiped. God says, that He (God) is God, and there shall be no other. (This doesn't give much credence to the Catholic notion of the Trinity, unless you believe, as they do, that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same God. The assistant pastor of the local Greek Orthodox Church told me that God had split himself into three parts).

When God seeks an assistant, that assistant is put in an awkward spot. Lets take Noah, for example. Noah's neighbors had a hard time understanding why Noah was building a huge ship in the middle of a desert, and the explanation that all of the animals of the world were going to peacefully board the vessel, two by two, without eating each other, was even harder to swallow. (You can imagine my difficulty in buying stuffed animals for my nephew, Noah....have to get him two of everything....though the dinosaurs can be Gay).

All of God's assistance begin to doubt their own sanity. But God sent many assistants to earth (the prophets of God) with the same vision as Saint Thomas the Divine (who wrote Revelation...a chapter of the bible) to warn the world not to attack Iraq. The outcome of that attack is that Iraqis were innocent of terrorism, and their country was destroyed, occupied for 20 years, corrupted by a nation known for sexual corruption and for flaunting excessive wealth. Pearl necklaces were particularly mentioned in the bible, like the "simple pearl necklace of Barbara Bush." A million innocent Iraqis were murdered in the war, and God's wrath was (and will be) harsh. God will end the world, and the war in Iraq started us on that path.

God sent his prophets to earth in a last ditch effort to prevent the war in Iraq. Some will still go to heaven. For example the pope wrote a strongly written See to the United States, with the strongest wording of any See ever written, admonishing President W. Bush from attacking Iraq. The country of Germany (that brought us Hitler) admonished the US for thinking of attacking Iraq. France was highly teased and taunted for refusing to back W. Bush's war in Iraq. Even Tony Blair of England didn't think that the US had any reason to attack the US, but was repaying a WWII debt by sending troops with W. Bush to Iraq (Blair, and the English who supported him, will roast in the lake of fire for eternity).

I must remain humble, like the dust.

Some of God's assistants were outspoken and revered. Moses led his people out of bondage in Egypt, and parted the Red Sea with his brother's (Aaron's) staff. He packed a heavy suitcase (rock rubble from the ten commandments, his brother's staff, and a copy of the Torah, in a wooden box that no one was allowed to open except in special ceremonies held every thousand years (by the Hebrew calendar). Thought to be lost, this Ark of the Covenant, is hidden away to keep it safe, and was last opened in the gentile year of 2000, because the rabbis knew that the world is ending (due to the war in Iraq), and they wanted to open it one last time. The power of the Ark is so great, that it must be carried on wooden poles that fit through special slots in the box.

Moses wasn't humble, but he had an important mission from God to perform, so he had to get the ten commandments, and publicly announce them. He had to part the Red Sea. Moses's Ark of the Covenant was taken to Jericho when the walls were knocked down.

Joan of Ark wasn't very humble, but she, too, had a very important mission to do for God.

There have been many assistants for God down through the ages, but no one ever heard of them. Once God is done with them, he no longer needs them to assist Him.

It begs the question, "why does the all powerful and all knowing God need assistance from anyone?" It is because many people don't follow the word of God, and God makes sure that there are humans helping who will spread the word. It is so frustrating for God to blatantly tell everyone to do something (like don't attack Iraq), and watch them openly defy Him.
 
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Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Statistical distribution, in space and time, of beliefs does not seem to confirm your claim.

Ciao

- viole

True, there are many Gods worshiped around the world.

Yet, when we consider space, time, and the birth of the universe, things get a bit difficult to understand. Where did the energy come from for the Big Bang? Could it be that there was a time warp (that we have never discovered) that caused the end of the universe to end up at the beginning again? That would mean that the beginning (lets call it alpha...first letter of the Greek alphabet). and the end (lets call it omega....last letter of the Greek alphabet) are the same.

Is it possible that as the universe expands, it wraps around to its own beginning?

The bible mentions the alpha and the omega, and makes the claim that they are the same (or that an entity was at both times).

We know that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light across the metric of space. But we also know that the expansion of the universe exceeds the speed of light, and that it is still accelerating. Apparently, some distant parts of the universe that are traveling away from each other due to this expansion (and accelerated expansion) are moving away at faster than the speed of light. Those rapidly moving objects don't obey the Twin Paradox (rocket takes off from Earth at nearly the speed of light and comes back and the twin who went is younger than the twin who stayed, because special relativity). This is because the distant parts of the universe never traveled at all since the big bang. Rather, they remained where they were as the metric of space stretched around them. So we can't say that one aged while the other didn't age as much. Time didn't dilate for them.

The formula for time dilation (using special relativity) isn't made for calculating faster-than-light (superluminal) speeds. If one attempted to use the formula, one would get imaginary numbers. But, since the distant parts of the universe are not really moving from where they were at the big bang, the time dilation formula doesn't apply. One is left to speculate what the faster-than-light expansion of the universe really means (can time travel backwards?).

I would imagine that picking the wrong God to worship would anger God. How does one choose?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Many people have a limited conception of what may constitute reality, and of how others may comprehend and experience it.

You'd think that studying physics would help people understand the real world. Yet, physics has many unanswered questions, and it turns out that the world is far more bizarre than most people think. On the small scale, things are random, and mass can be created out of energy, and energy can be created out of mass. Mass can oscillate (neutrinos). Subatomic particles can tunnel through barriers. Entangled particles somehow change at the same time even if separated by vast distances. The Chinese have just calculated that this "communication" travels at least 10,000 times faster than the speed of light, and Einstein dubbed it "spooky action." It cannot be used for communication because it changes randomly (we can't change it). Our best theories (Quantum Chromodynamics and Quantum Electrodynmics) both predict certain things, but disagree with each other on most things.

At large distances, things are also strange. We struggle to understand the acceleration of the expansion of the universe, and realize that distant stars that are moving away at faster than the speed of light (due to the expansion of the universe) really never moved at all, so the Twin Paradox doesn't apply (time didn't dilate, unless a supernova knocked them off course). Their movement is a consequence of the stretch of the metric of space, rather than proper motion across the universe.

String theory remains an unproven mystery that takes faith to believe (and many scientists believe).

Scientists know that a big bang occurred. But recent papers state that it was never in a singularity (crushed by gravity to a point with zero dimensions). It is unknown where that energy ball (that banged) came from.

The more answers we find, the more questions we find.

To some people, the way a car works is a mystery. If you hand them a bucket of bolts and parts and tell them to put their car back together, they might be a bit stunned (especially when handed a bill). Yet, most accept that a car works, and they drive them (when they work). They can't comprehend the reality of how a car works. Nor how a TV works. They rely on MRIs, CAT scans, and a host of medical equipment. It is all a mystery, yet part of a reality that they can't grasp. They take, on faith, that the various devices in our modern society will function correctly.

Does science destroy faith, or does it foster faith by fostering trust?

I don't suggest leaping to the conclusion that God exists, just because science has reached an unknown. Eventually science might understand everything. We can't prove God just by saying that we don't know everything about science.

In conclusion....sanity is over-rated.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
According to nature we are supposed to feel and sense things. According to nature we can love and hate the situations we get ourselves into. According to nature memory is supposed to serve us to make better circumstances according to reason. That smacks of intentionality that we exist this way. Nature is a rough draft, or sketch upon physical reality. Life wants a journey otherwise life would have grown no senses, no feelings, no limbs to act with. Life would have no sound nor any fury to rage if it wasn't intended to be this way.

Either God made our senses, or they occurred naturally from evolution. Lets not leap to the conclusion that if we hear a noise God must have made our ears.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's often argued that theists start with a belief in a literal deity (for whatever reasons) then try to find evidence to support it. However I think many people do start with what they consider to be evidence first, even if it's not generally accepted as such.

Why do you believe? Does belief necessarily require evidence? If so, what qualifies?
I would say that the vast majority of theists are raised to believe in a deity and never bother to look for evidence; they just take it as given that their beliefs are true.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...Does belief necessarily require evidence? If so, what qualifies?

I think it always needs evidence and at the minimum the evidence is that he got the idea somehow. Without knowing the idea, person could not believe it. And that the idea exists, is the minimum evidence. In many cases I understand it is not necessary enough.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I would say that the vast majority of theists are raised to believe in a deity and never bother to look for evidence; they just take it as given that their beliefs are true.

It's when theists believe that they are doing God's work by killing those who don't believe as they do, that we have problems.

Look at all of the killing that has been done in God's name. War in Iraq (W. Bush: "I'm fightin' evil.") That killed 1,000,000 innocent people out of haste, and diplomacy was the last resort (war was the first). God: "Thou shalt not kill" "turn the other cheek."

In Europe, Jews were tortured into converting to Christ, and, in order to save their immortal souls, before they; could switch back, they were killed (so they would go to heaven).

Religions are warped from their mandates of peace, to Dark Age religions of war, torture, and killing. One religion attacks another, so the other religion attacks back. That certainly wasn't in God's plan.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I would say that the vast majority of theists are raised to believe in a deity and never bother to look for evidence; they just take it as given that their beliefs are true.


Have you bothered to look for any evidence to support this assumption?

Disclaimer; this is not an invitation to get googling.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Nature is not a sentient thing, is does not make decisions or have plans, that's not how evolution works, and natural selection is also influenced by chance or random events, it works relentlessly but insentiently, traits that provide any advantage in surviving lone enough to find a mate and reproduce are obviously more likely to be passed on for that reason. We have evolved brains capable of problem solving, and this has enabled us deny to a certain extent, our evolved instincts, but not all of them and not completely. We don't have entirely free will, but we do have a certain amount of autonomy, governed by circumstance and our biology.

The emotions you are describing are fury or rage are part of all animals fight or flight response, they are evolved.

That's a good explanation for natural occurrence of life, and says nothing of its ingenuity.
 

Suave

Simulated character
It's often argued that theists start with a belief in a literal deity (for whatever reasons) then try to find evidence to support it. However I think many people do start with what they consider to be evidence first, even if it's not generally accepted as such.

Why do you believe? Does belief necessarily require evidence? If so, what qualifies?

I'm confident a simulator ( a.k.a. God) actually exists, because there are real indicators of us living in a simulation, and a simulated universe might be a testable hypothesis.

God is life's Creator. Our genetic code's creator has left this mathematical pattern in our genetic code conveying to me the symbol of an Egyptian triangle as well as the number 37 embedded in our genetic code.
Eight of the canonical amino acids can be sufficiently defined by the composition of their codon's first and second base nucleotides. The nucleon sum of these amino acids' side chains is 333 (=37 * 3 squared), the sun of their block nucleons (basic core structure) is 592 (=37 * 4 squared), and the sum of their total nucleons is 925 (=37 * 5 squared ). With 37 factored out, this results in 3 squared + 4 squared = 5 squared, which is representative of an Egyptian triangle.

The “Wow! signal” of the terrestrial genetic code
  • May 2013
  • Icarus 224(1):228–242
DOI:10.1016/j.icarus.2013.02.017
Authors:

Vladimir Shcherbak
Maxim Makukov

The mathematical pattern of the number 37 being used as a key factor for conveying an Egyptian triangle might be related to the gematria value of 37 appearing in the Hebrew language of Genesis 1:1.

genesis%2B11%2Bvalues.png


You shall have no gods before the creator of the heavens and earth, life's creator!

God is the controller of simulations.

There are five indications of us living in a simulation:

1. Crude simulations and virtual realities have already been simulated by computers .
A study conducted by Henry Markram and his team at the Blue Brain project have successfully simulated elements of a rat’s neocortical column, a complex layer of brain tissue common to all mammalian species. " Henry Markram at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne and his team built their model based on experimental measurements of rat brain slices. The simulation represents roughly 37 million synapses, or neuronal connections, in the brain region that receives sensory information from the whiskers and other parts of the body. Using the model, the team simulated rat whisker movement and saw similar neuronal responses to those observed in rat experiments."

Computer model of rat-brain part - Nature.


I realize a computer simulation of a rat's neocortical column is nowhere near the complexity of a computer simulation of an entire living human brain, but this does demonstrate at least a bit of progress so far being made towards an entire human brain's consciousness being simulated by a computer.

Perhaps when scientists have figured out how to read the actual results of a consciousness simulation, then the simulation hypothesis will become a widely accepted theory.

2. Wave-function collapse - Matter exists as a probability wave that collapses to a particle upon observation. Wave-function collapse would be expected in a simulated reality, because computational resources would be conserved by only simulating observed matter.

3. Matrix glitches - Paranormal phenomenon might happen in a simulation where the rules governing the simulation are disrupted or changed

4 Compromises in simulation algorithms - The human mind and the internet use very similar algorithms or methods to manage the flow of information., these methods often take short cuts to conserve energy or conserve computational resources, this might be expected in a computer simulation.

Study: Internet, Human Brain Use Similar Algorithms to Process Info

5. Computer code found in string theory.


It might not be lights-out game-over after ionic currents cease flowing across the minds of God's favorite characters who might be re-simulated or re-animated in a virtual paradise world by God.

Some physicists have proposed a method for testing if we are in a numerical simulated cubic space-time lattice Matrix or simulated universe with an underlying grid.
[1210.1847] Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation

Based on the assumption that there'd be finite computational resources, a simulated universe would be performed by dividing up the space-time continuum into individually separate and distinctive points. Analogous to mini-simulations that lattice-gauge theorists conduct to construct nuclei based on Quantum Chromodynamics, observable effects of a grid-like space-time have been studied from these computer simulations which use a 3-D grid to model how elementary particles move and collide with each other. Anomalies found in these simulations suggest that if we are in a simulation universe with an underlying grid, then there'd be various amounts of high energy cosmic rays coming at us from each direction; but if space is continuous, then there'd be high energy cosmic rays coming at us equally from every direction.
In a simulated universe, we'd expect to observe cosmic rays travelling predominately along the axes of the lattice of our simulated universe/Matrix in contrast to being observed emanating equally in all directions of unconstrained space; this implies the existence of a simulator ( a.k.a. -God)

High Energy Physics - Phenomenology
Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation
Silas R. Beane, Zohreh Davoudi, Martin J. Savage
(Submitted on 4 Oct 2012 (v1), last revised 9 Nov 2012 (this version, v2))
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
That's a good explanation for natural occurrence of life, and says nothing of its ingenuity.

Evolution explains the diversity of life, not it's origins, and that diversity includes human ingenuity, as I explained in my post.
 
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