Article, “Internal Proofs of Bible Authenticity”

[Hockeycowboy]

Hey Blü2, how’s it going?

I have time constraints (due to other responsibilities), so right now, I can only address these:

But that's folktale, tribal origins lore. There was no historical Garden of Eden and no historical creation.

I say there was.

Otherwise, Jesus’ sacrifice of a (perfect) life for a (perfect) life - the Mosaic Law’s standard for justice - has no value or meaning if Adam didn’t exist.

Not only that, but there are two Garden stories, not one, in the bible, underlining that tales have local varieties.

No, there’s just one; chap.2 is the same story with added details.

By the way, the bible gives no basis for the suggestion that a "year" can be read as "a thousand years" whenever the reader wishes.

I would tend to agree.

I can find only one relevant reference in the Tanakh ─

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
and that's plainly poetic,

Oh, so now we get into poetry…

Let’s go on….

. (I set out the relevant texts here >Gravitational waves in Newton theory are 4-th order, in Einstein's are 2-nd!!!<.)

When I was reading this post, I kept thinking about what Newton would say.
So I was intrigued, and went to your link…

And here, you began critiquing the Bible. Unfortunately, though, what you earlier attributed to poetry… you said Psalm 90:4 was “plainly poetic”… now you claim the other scriptures, are not poetic, but reflect the erroneous thinking of the time. (Sounds like a biased interpretation to me.)

If the Bible only represented the ancient worldview, then we wouldn’t have the accurate description of the Earth @ Job 26:7…where it’s situated “on nothing”… or Job 38:16… where God asks Job, “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?”

Who knew of those things back then? Nobody!

Only in modern times, were such things discovered. And they verified the Bible.

I’m curious (completely different subject)…. what is your take on those who claim to “speak with the dead”, and other invisible entities?

And why would the God of the Bible prohibit such activity?

Any ideas?

 

[Audie]

Hey Blü2, how’s it going?

I have time constraints (due to other responsibilities), so right now, I can only address these:

I say there was.

Otherwise, Jesus’ sacrifice of a (perfect) life for a (perfect) life - the Mosaic Law’s standard for justice - has no value or meaning if Adam didn’t exist.

No, there’s just one; chap.2 is the same story with added details.



I would tend to agree.

Oh, so now we get into poetry…

Let’s go on….

When I was reading this post, I kept thinking about what Newton would say.
So I was intrigued, and went to your link…

And here, you began critiquing the Bible. Unfortunately, though, what you earlier attributed to poetry… you said Psalm 90:4 was “plainly poetic”… now you claim the other scriptures, are not poetic, but reflect the erroneous thinking of the time. (Sounds like a biased interpretation to me.)

If the Bible only represented the ancient worldview, then we wouldn’t have the accurate description of the Earth @ Job 26:7…where it’s situated “on nothing”… or Job 38:16… where God asks Job, “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?”

Who knew of those things back then? Nobody!

Only in modern times, were such things discovered. And they verified the Bible.

I’m curious (completely different subject)…. what is your take on those who claim to “speak with the dead”, and other invisible entities?

And why would the God of the Bible prohibit such activity?

Any ideas?

I've an idea you really should put in the
time needed to understand, and internalize
the concept of intellectual integrity.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The entire archaeological record in Canaan/Judea. If the ancient Isrselites came in from Egypt and quickly displaced the Canaanites, there would be a discontinuity in the archeological record when suddenly, across the region that would become Judea, Canaanite cultural indicators disappear and Israelite cultural indicators replace them: everything from pottery styles to building and village layouts to burial practices, etc.

... but we don't see this. Instead, we see "that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture... In short, Israelite culture was largely Canaanite in nature."

The ancient Isrselites emerged from the ancient Canaanites; they didn't sweep in and replace them.



How do you expect me to "show you" this in the format of an online discussion?

Edit: the first time I encountered this was nearly 20 years ago in Karen Armstrong's book "The Great Transformation: the Beginnings of our Religious Traditions." Not only is this book not available online in a way I can just point you to, I returned the book to the library almost two decades ago, so I don't even have a personal copy to send you if I wanted.

You can find plenty of sources online that talk about this, but they're all generally a quick paragraph followed by a citation of an actual book by an archaeologist.


What about Jericho do you think is both "in line with the Biblical narrative" and relevant to what I'm saying?

Are you familiar with the Biblical record? Have you read the pertinent accounts?

Heres one:
Deuteronomy 8:10-12

Some changes, though, were quite evident.

Regarding Jericho, I posted the information already…archaeologist Titus Kennedy…

Everything from the pattern of how the walls collapsed, to the burnt grain left unlooted.

And it’s relevant, because they were Canaanite.

But we are told that the Israelites did adopt many Canaanite practices, because they didn’t drive them all out. — Judges chap 1:21 - chap 2:3

So again, we have the Biblical record supported by facts.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Israelite cultural indicators replace them: everything from pottery styles to building and village layouts to burial practices, etc.

Really? Now these people, according to the Bible, had been slaves! They hadn’t had the freedom to develop a ‘particular style of pottery.’

The reason we know better these days is because we've looked and measured and looked again and measured again.

Measuring is best.
But inductive reasoning isn’t based on measuring; it’s based on guessing / philosophy, and that can be misleading.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Post them.

Post them.

Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence.
The government of Egypt has been hindering any searches relating to the Exodus for ages, since the account puts Egypt in a bad light (although it’s been thousands of years.) As for the Red Sea, they don’t allow retrieval of artifacts from the waters, and neither does Saudi Arabia on its eastern side.

Actually, evidence is not absent.
Heard of the Ipuwer document? That is just one piece, of quite a few. The engraving recently discovered by Dr. Titus Kennedy on a temple wall in N. Sudan (once S.Egypt) is another.

“Almost all”, does not a consensus make.

Yeah, I agree that was wrong Lol.

Your comment doesn’t refute the Biblical Account. The Bible says nothing of a meteor or asteroid.

You should ask yourself, what did they find? What evidence were these researchers trying to interpret, motivating them to use such a rarely occurring explanation?

It requires a lot of heat to create the caliber of sulfur they’ve found, and that area lacks volcanic activity.

You only get to ask one question per post. I am applying the Gish Gallop Rule. Especially since you only made a bunch of false and ignorant claims and have not presented any evidence.

It does not take "a lot of heat to create the caliber of sulfur". That is a claim that you should have supported rather than stating as a fact. All that it takes is a source of sulfur and organic material. There has been quite a bit of volcanic activity in the area in the past in Israel and there is quite a bit of volcanic ash. One element often associated with it is volcanic ash. Now one only needs water, and the last I time I checked it does rain sometimes in Israel, and a basin of some sort A low lying inland sea would be ideal. Does Israel have any of those? You will have to remind me. Mix it in with some organic material that is oxygen hungry and you can form reduced sulfur as a result. You might want to read this article:

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/reports/reports-1991/he/report_1991_Minster-T-Carbon-Sulfur-Marine-Senonian-Organic-Rich-Iron-Poor-Sediments-Israel-GSI-Rep-MNI-1991.pdf

So please, do not bring up sulfur or "brimstone" again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, the Seventh Day is not mentioned as having an evening & morning. For a reason: it’s not literal.

This borders on circular reasoning. Paul wasn’t speaking about yesterday, a 24-hr day. Come on.
You should already be aware that the Bible uses symbolism all the time!
The Apostle Paul knew it. With the enlightenment that Jehovah God gave Paul, Paul passed on that enlightenment to Jehovah’s worshippers. No one else though, it seems. Luke 10:21

I see, so things that are even more clearly false are just "symbolic". Like the Adam and Eve myth. And the Noah's Ark myth. Okay, I can accept that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, there’s just one; chap.2 is the same story with added details.

And different order of when various things were magically zapped into existence. But you forgot, you just showed how all of that is symbolic. It never happened that way.

 

[Audie]

You only get to ask one question per post. I am applying the Gish Gallop Rule. Especially since you only made a bunch of false and ignorant claims and have not presented any evidence.

It does not take "a lot of heat to create the caliber of sulfur". That is a claim that you should have supported rather than stating as a fact. All that it takes is a source of sulfur and organic material. There has been quite a bit of volcanic activity in the area in the past in Israel and there is quite a bit of volcanic ash. One element often associated with it is volcanic ash. Now one only needs water, and the last I time I checked it does rain sometimes in Israel, and a basin of some sort A low lying inland sea would be ideal. Does Israel have any of those? You will have to remind me. Mix it in with some organic material that is oxygen hungry and you can form reduced sulfur as a result. You might want to read this article:

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/reports/reports-1991/he/report_1991_Minster-T-Carbon-Sulfur-Marine-Senonian-Organic-Rich-Iron-Poor-Sediments-Israel-GSI-Rep-MNI-1991.pdf

So please, do not bring up sulfur or "brimstone" again.

You sure sulfur has different calibers?
Like bullets?

And...is it Gish, or Chase Squirrel Thro' Treetops
you are worried about? ( trick question)

 

[blü 2]

Hey Blü2, how’s it going?

Could be worse, thanks. Hope all things are good at your house,

[There was no historical Garden of Eden and no historical creation.]
I say there was.

Otherwise, Jesus’ sacrifice of a (perfect) life for a (perfect) life - the Mosaic Law’s standard for justice - has no value or meaning if Adam didn’t exist.

But ─ please correct me if I'm wrong ─ the ONLY mentions of original sin in the bible are Paul's two references to the Fall of Man. There's absolutely nothing about sin, a fall, death entering the world, spiritual death or anything of that sort in the Genesis Garden story. There, God states [his] reasons for expelling Adam and Eve at Genesis 3:22-23 ─ namely, to protect his own position.

And according to an article I read, the idea that the Garden story was about the fall of man is first found among Alexandrian Jews practicing the midrash tradition ─ taking bible passages and interpreting them fancifully to mean something new and decidedly different ─ late in the second century CE.

(I've never understood why Jesus had to go on his suicide mission anyway ─ and it is expressly a suicide mission ─ what it achieved that an omnipotent God couldn't achieve with one snap of those mighty fingers.)

No, there’s just one; chap.2 is the same story with added details.

The alternative Garden story is at Ezekiel 28.11-19.

I would tend to agree.

Oh, so now we get into poetry…

Let’s go on….

There are indeed poetic references in those quotes about biblical cosmology that I linked.

But it's also relevant that the bible offers no alternatives compatible with our present understanding. Nothing indicates an understanding of a spherical earth, gravity, a heliocentric solar system, of orbits (earth or moon or planets), of deep space instead of a fixed hard dome (firmament) over the earth to which the stars are affixed, the nature of stars, and of galaxies ─ let alone relativity &c. Nor, I suggest, would an ordinary reader expect such things from documents so ancient.

If the Bible only represented the ancient worldview, then we wouldn’t have the accurate description of the Earth @ Job 26:7…where it’s situated “on nothing”

Job 26
7 He stretches out the North over the void
and hangs the earth upon nothing.
8 He binds up the waters in his thick clouds,
and the cloud is not torn open by them.
...
11 The pillars of heaven tremble
and are astounded at his rebuke.​

How does 7 indicate modern knowledge?
What is surprising about 8? It demonstrates no remarkable insight into the hydro cycle, or into the nature of clouds.
What modern concept is denoted by "the pillars of heaven"?

I’m curious (completely different subject)…. what is your take on those who claim to “speak with the dead”, and other invisible entities?

I tried it once>Does God live within atheists?<.

But I've neither seen nor read anything to alter my understanding that life, including human life, is the product of biology, and that when you die, the sense of self and all memories and all traits and functions of the body are extinguished forever.

 

[blü 2]

But inductive reasoning isn’t based on measuring; it’s based on guessing / philosophy, and that can be misleading.

Empiricism is the observing part of science.

Induction is the part where you say E=mc2, that is, where you note that E=mc2 appears to have universal application, and, often enough, proceed accordingly.

 

[Audie]

You only get to ask one question per post. I am applying the Gish Gallop Rule. Especially since you only made a bunch of false and ignorant claims and have not presented any evidence.

It does not take "a lot of heat to create the caliber of sulfur". That is a claim that you should have supported rather than stating as a fact. All that it takes is a source of sulfur and organic material. There has been quite a bit of volcanic activity in the area in the past in Israel and there is quite a bit of volcanic ash. One element often associated with it is volcanic ash. Now one only needs water, and the last I time I checked it does rain sometimes in Israel, and a basin of some sort A low lying inland sea would be ideal. Does Israel have any of those? You will have to remind me. Mix it in with some organic material that is oxygen hungry and you can form reduced sulfur as a result. You might want to read this article:

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/reports/reports-1991/he/report_1991_Minster-T-Carbon-Sulfur-Marine-Senonian-Organic-Rich-Iron-Poor-Sediments-Israel-GSI-Rep-MNI-1991.pdf

So please, do not bring up sulfur or "brimstone" again.

And admit to getting this one wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is amazing how many stories are true if you only read the books that they are in.

I think that would include the resurrection stories in the NT.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You sure sulfur has different calibers?
Like bullets?

And...is it Gish, or Chase Squirrel Thro' Treetops
you are worried about? ( trick question)

To be fair "caliber" has several definitions. In the dictionary the first has to do with quality. The diameter of a gun or the that of the bullets that it shoots is a secondary definition:

Definition of CALIBER

degree of mental capacity or moral quality; degree of excellence or importance; the diameter of a bullet or other projectile… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[shunyadragon]

Really? Now these people, according to the Bible, had been slaves! They hadn’t had the freedom to develop a ‘particular style of pottery.’

Every culture developed a particular style of pottery, and at the time all cultures bought, sold and owned slaves including the Hebrews.

Measuring is best.

Objective measuring with evidence id indeed best

But inductive reasoning isn’t based on measuring; it’s based on guessing / philosophy, and that can be misleading.

You need to understand the difference and use of inductive versus inductive reasoning. IT is fully obvious your clueless.

 

[shunyadragon]

Really? Now these people, according to the Bible, had been slaves! They hadn’t had the freedom to develop a ‘particular style of pottery.’

Every culture developed a particular style of pottery, and at the time all cultures bought, sold and owned slaves including the Hebrews.

Measuring is best.

Objective measuring with objective evidence is indeed best, but you fail to do this based on your agenda.

But inductive reasoning isn’t based on measuring; it’s based on guessing / philosophy, and that can be misleading.

You need to understand the difference and use of inductive versus inductive reasoning. IT is fully obvious your clueless.

 

[Audie]

To be fair "caliber" has several definitions. In the dictionary the first has to do with quality. The diameter of a gun or the that of the bullets that it shoots is a secondary definition:

Definition of CALIBER

degree of mental capacity or moral quality; degree of excellence or importance; the diameter of a bullet or other projectile… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

No need to dictionary me.
And
Sulfur don't come in no stinkin calibers

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Every culture developed a particular style of pottery, and at the time all cultures bought, sold and owned slaves including the Hebrews.

Objective measuring with objective evidence is indeed best, but you fail to do this based on your agenda.

You need to understand the difference and use of inductive versus inductive reasoning. IT is fully obvious you’re clueless.

Did you know that your response,
“Every culture developed a particular style of pottery, and at the time all cultures bought, sold and owned slaves including the Hebrews”…..
…is completely out of context?!!

It seems you are the clueless one, lol.

 

[Audie]

Did you know that your response,
“Every culture developed a particular style of pottery, and at the time all cultures bought, sold and owned slaves including the Hebrews”…..
…is completely out of context?!!

It seems you are the clueless one, lol.

But he doesn't just make things up.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Really? Now these people, according to the Bible, had been slaves! They hadn’t had the freedom to develop a ‘particular style of pottery.’

Sounds like you don't understand that every cultute has its own way of doing things and that these differences can be seen in the archaeological record.

The best explanation for the Exodus myth is the Babylonian Captivity: once the Israelites really were forcibly removed from their land and enslaved, they needed to make sense of what had happened. The Exodus myth developed as a way to understand their current Babylonian predicament, including what caused it (lack of loyalty and obedience to God), what could fix it (restored loyalty and obedience to God) and hope that they would get through it.

 

[Audie]

Sounds like you don't understand that every cultute has its own way of doing things and that these differences can be seen in the archaeological record.

The best explanation for the Exodus myth is the Babylonian Captivity: once the Israelites really were forcibly removed from their land and enslaved, they needed to make sense of what had happened. The Exodus myth developed as a way to understand their current Babylonian predicament, including what caused it (lack of loyalty and obedience to God), what could fix it (restored loyalty and obedience to God) and hope that they would get through it.

Stories have a way of growing over time