Asatru and Hinduism

[The Kilted Heathen]

Recently I've seen the comparison made here, as well as sporadically here and there in the past - mostly by universalists and pantheists - that Asatru and Hinduism share much in common. That because both cultures evolved from Proto-Indo-European peoples, the two religions are "cousins." But is this truly so?

Most of what I have been able to find and/or seen are simplistic comparisons between deities. Shiva - Odin as deities of Death (which certainly simplifies Odin, though I do not know how simplified Shiva - or any Hindu deity - is), Thor - Indra as "thunder gods", Jormungandr to Shesha, who destroys each cycle... All are over-simplified, and rely on a rigid and limited view of the Gods as complex individuals and beings.

Not to mention that core myths and cosmologies are completely different. Radically so.

In the Hindu creation myth, there is the progression as so:

1. Nothingness save Vishnu on a cobra
2. Dawn and the introduction of Brahma
3. Brahma - at Vishnu's command - creates the earth, heavens, and skies with three parts of the lotus
4. Brahma creates life on earth.

Contrast this to the Norse creation myth, as is follows:

1. Muspelheim to the South, Niflheim to the North, Ginnungagap (nothingness) in between.
2. Muspelheim and Niflheim clash, creating vast fields of glaciers and fog
3. The being Ymir is born of this clash, as is Audhumla and Buri
4. Giants are born of Ymir, and Odin, Vili and Ve born of Borr - the son of Buri - and Bestla
5. To create life, and all that is, Odin, Vili and Ve slay Ymir, and form the world from it's corpse; Ymir's blood floods out, drowning many giants and forming the oceans.
6. Of Ymir's bones are made stones, of their hair trees and grass, of their skull is the sky dome, and clouds are their brain.
7. Driftwood of ash and elm are given life and being, and carved into man and woman by the three brothers.

I have also seen the comparison that in Hinduism, the world rests on a serpent, and this is paralleled by Jormungandr - however Jormungandr retains the oceans, the world does not rest on him. A small difference, but one that I see worth noting. Also in difference to the destructive snake of Hindu mythology, it is Surtr that will burn and destroy everything that is in the very end, not Jormungandr.

Most comparisons, as mentioned before, seem to rely on nothing more than archetype. The two cultures certainly branched from PIE peoples, but I see nothing to suggest that Germanic paganism - even in the past - has Vedic roots (as was suggested in another thread).

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are taking 'Puranic' 'Vaishnava' references as the only one for creation in Hinduism. They are not the only one, and they are quite recent (thought in the Christian era) as compared to the Vedic references which are completely different and much older.

From BG Tilak's 'Arctic Home in Vedas' (Index - The Arctic Home in the Vedas):

Tishtrya: his fight with Apaosha in the Avesta, 205; a reproduction of Indra’s fight with Vṛitra, 205; lasted for one hundred days, 207; special sacrifices required to be performed at the time, 208; described as bringing circling years of men, 208-209.
Thor, the Norse sun-hero, walking nine paces before being killed by the Serpent, 374.
Thraêtaona: Avestic deity, corresponding to Trita Âptya, 248; restores glory to Yima, 268; slays AziDahâk, 312; accompanied by his two brothers in the Avesta, 312; throws up Vifra-Navâza, 375.
Thridi: old Norse name of Odin, same as Trita, 313.
Triath: an old Irish word for sea, phonetically same as Trita, 313.
Trita Aptya: a Vedic deity assisting Indra in his fight with Vṛitra, 248; Avestic Thraêtaona, 310, urges Indra to fight, 311; falls into a well, 311; derivation of his name, 312; Prof. Max Müller’s view untenable, 312; denotes the third part of the year 311, 313; explained on the Arctic theory, 313; compared to Ivan in the Slavonic mythology, 375.
Triton, Greek, phonetically equivalent to Vedic Trita, 313.

"There are a number of other legends in the Celtic and Teutonic literatures which describe the victory of sun-hero over the demons of darkness every year, similar in character to the victory of Indra over Vṛitra, or to the achievements of the Ashvins, the physicians of the gods. Thus in the Norse mythology, Hodur, the blind god of winter, is represented as killing Balder or Baldur, or the god of summer, and Vali the son of Odin and Rind is said to have avenged his brother’s death afterwards. The encounters of Cuchulainn, the Celtic Sun-god, with his enemies, the Fomori or the Fir Bolg, the Irish representatives of the powers of darkness, are of the same character."
The Arctic Home in the Vedas, Randomly chosen from Chapter 'Comparative Mythology', page 377

From Tuisto - Wikipedia:

Tuisto: According to Tacitus's Germania (AD 98), Tuisto (or Tuisco) is the divine ancestor of the Germanic peoples.
The second variant of the name, occurring originally in manuscript E, reads Tuisco. One proposed etymology for this variant reconstructs a Proto-Germanic *tiwisko and connects this with Proto-Germanic *Tiwaz, giving the meaning "son of Tiu". This interpretation would thus make Tuisco the son of the sky-god (Proto-Indo-European *Dyeus) and the earth-goddess.

Tuisto, Tvastar & Ymir: Connections have been proposed between the 1st century figure of Tuisto and the hermaphroditic primeval being Ymir in later Norse mythology, attested in 13th century sources, based upon etymological and functional similarity. Meyer (1907) sees the connection as so strong, that he considers the two to be identical. Lindow (2001), while mindful of the possible semantic connection between Tuisto and Ymir, notes an essential functional difference: while Ymir is portrayed as an "essentially… negative figure" – Tuisto is described as being "celebrated" (celebrant) by the early Germanic peoples in song, with Tacitus reporting nothing negative about Tuisto.

Jacob (2005) attempts to establish a genealogical relationship between Tuisto and Ymir based on etymology and a comparison with (post-)Vedic Indian mythology: as Tvastr, through his daughter Saranyū and her husband Vivaswān, is said to have been the grandfather of the twins Yama and Yami, so Jacob argues that the Germanic Tuisto (assuming a connection with Tvastr) must originally have been the grandfather of Ymir (cognate to Yama). Incidentally, Indian mythology also places Manu (cognate to Germanic Mannus), the Vedic progenitor of mankind, as a son of Vivaswān, thus making him the brother of Yama/Ymir.

Attestation: Tacitus relates that "ancient songs" (Latin carminibus antiquis) of the Germanic peoples celebrated Tuisto as "a god, born of the earth" (deum terra editum). These songs further attributed to him a son, Mannus, who in turn had three sons, the offspring of whom were referred to as Ingaevones, Herminones and Istaevones, living near the Ocean (proximi Oceano), in the interior (medii), and the remaining parts (ceteri) of the geographical region of Germania, respectively.

Theories and interpretations: Tacitus's report falls squarely within the ethnographic tradition of the classical world, which often fused anthropogony, ethnogony, and theogony together into a synthetic whole. The succession of father-son-three sons parallels occurs in both Germanic and non-Germanic Indo-European areas. The essential characteristics of the myth have been theorized as ultimately originated in Proto-Indo-European society around 2,000 BCE.

You can talk about other Gods as well, Ouranos, Perun, etc., we have equivalents of them too.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Thor, the Norse sun-hero, walking nine paces before being killed by the Serpent

Thor has nothing to do with the Sun.

Thridi: old Norse name of Odin, same as Trita,

Do you mean Þriði? That is a name of Odin, but more like a nickname. He is the third son of Borr and Bestla. Trita is also a minor deity, whereas Odin is a major one, and whereas you say Trita aids in the fight against the serpent, Odin is already devoured by Fenrir in the Ragnarök myth when Thor battles Jormungandr. So they are not very comparable at all.

Yet even still, these are simplistic comparisons of archetypes, nothing that truly proves any lineage of the Norse from the Vedas. Further argument for Tuisto and Tvastr rely on words that sound the same, yet the article that you link notes that Jacob's theory rests on assumption.

Furthermore, it notes - as you posted - that such myths would have taken origin in Proto-Indo-European cultures, which I noted as a common ancestor of Germanic and Hindu culture. Yet this does not mean or indicate that Norse myths came from the Vedas; rather that both evolved separate from that PIE culture, as did many others.

I still see nothing to corroborate Asatru having roots in Vedic culture.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I never said that European tribes have copied things from Vedas. All of them are from the same stem. It is like we are all from Homo erectus. Surely, in the last 4,000 years, they have developed in different ways. That was my hurried first post. For a better post I will need more time.

 

[Vinayaka]

RP, I am with you. I see no similarities that are convincing. And yes, the universalists and others with pre-discussion agendas and lenses will find all things trivial and obscure that have some remote similarity and bring them to the forefront. That's the nature of the debate. I apologize for previously commenting in your DIR, without due thought on it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, Vinayaka, I understand that you are an "Aryans were Indians" person (from where they spread all over the world taking their language and mythology along with them. They tamed horses when they reached the Eurasian steppes ).

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, Vinayaka, I understand that you are an "Aryans were Indians" person (from where they spread all over the world taking their language and mythology along with them. They tamed horses when they reached the Eurasian steppes ).

No, I'm officially agnostic on the subject, which has nothing to do with the OP anyway. I only put out the other viewpoint when certain people speak about historical conjecture as if it were fact.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I never said that European tribes have copied things from Vedas.

Nor did I say that you specifically have. But a few people (and not necessarily on this site, it's a somewhat common claim) have.

 

[Aupmanyav]

QUOTE="Vinayaka, post: 5096528, member: 27944"]No, I'm officially agnostic on the subject, which has nothing to do with the OP anyway.[/QUOTE]IMHO, it is important. Aryan migrating into India from Eurasian steppes connects them to Indo-European people elsewhere more easily. North of Caspian to Lithuania or India cuts the distance by half as compared to India to Lithuania. That is better supported by Archaeology than 'Out of India' theory.

Aryan Journeys (Seroglazove, North of Caspian is the oldest 7,000 BC. Travels according to archaeological dates)
Click on the map to get a readable image. It seems IE people went in all three directions - North, East and West. It seems that they traveled to East later than West and North.

Dates of IE Cultures

 

[Vinayaka]

IMHO, it is important. Aryan migrating into India from Eurasian steppes connects them to Indo-European people elsewhere more easily. North of Caspian to Lithuania or India cuts the distance by half as compared to India to Lithuania. That is better supported by Archaeology than 'Out of India' theory.

Yes I do realise you are very attached to this Eurocentric version of history, despite your Indian culture. Why is beyond me? Does it make a difference to how we perform our dharma today?

The other version, not that I agree to it either, is that the Aryan Invasion Theory, and its cousin, the Aryan Migration Theory, is absolute myth, total hogwash, and has been disproven many times over by DNA evidence, archeology, and more. I implore the reader to do their own research, and come to their own conclusions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

1. Because the historical evidence is stronger for it. Compared to it 'Out of India' theory looks like what they say 'out of one's ***'). 2. No, it does not affect my Hinduism except that it connects me to other pagan belief in Eurasia and elsewhere against monotheistic religion ('Pagans of the World, Unite' sort of thing. Sure pagans include the Africans, American, Australians and others as well). 3. Migration, because no Aryan friction with the indigenous is mentioned in the RigVeda. It calmly crosses the bridge from Polytheism to Philosophy (philosophical takes as compared to the praises in the earlier books).

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

1. Because the historical evidence is stronger for it.

Stronger for what?

Sure pagans include the Africans, American, Australians and others as well

No, not really. Universalists do, but by and large Paganism is Euro-centric. Even still, this isn't about Paganism as a whole, this is about the correlation that many make between Asatru and Hinduism.

I can only assume that this weak link is made due to the ill-informed Nazi use of "Aryan" - not accusing Hindu's of anything, necessarily, but that's a link that unfortunately "ties" our two cultures. A false link, but a link all the same. In actuality, though, I don't believe there is much at all about our two cultures and faiths that are similar. As recognized, Hindu culture and Germanic culture both sprang from the Proto-Indo-European peoples, but this only indicates common root, not that what grew from that is related one from the other, as is sometimes claimed.

To compare it to biological evolution, Asatru and Hinduism are related as humans and monkeys are.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Stronger for what?

Stronger for Aryan Migration Theory (AMT) as compared to Out of India Theory (OIT).

.. but by and large Paganism is Euro-centric. Even still, this isn't about Paganism as a whole, this is about the correlation that many make between Asatru and Hinduism.

I do not limit Paganism only to Europe.

As recognized, Hindu culture and Germanic culture both sprang from the Proto-Indo-European peoples ..

That satisfies me.

Heathenry (Asatru): Heathenry, also termed Heathenism or Germanic Neopaganism, is a modern Pagan religion. Classified as a new religious movement, its practitioners model their faith on the pre-Christian belief systems adhered to by the Germanic peoples of Iron Age and Early Medieval Europe. To reconstruct these past belief systems, Heathenry uses surviving historical, archaeological, and folkloric evidence as a basis, although approaches to this material vary considerably.
Heathenry (new religious movement) - Wikipedia

Our advantage is that we do not have to reconstruct anything. We have a vigorous continuous living Indo-European tradition.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Asatru (of the Aesir):

"All the Vedic gods have shared the same title, not excepting even goddesses." "Varuna was the all-knowing asura, Prajāpati the Supreme Being; Indra, the Maruts, Tvastri, Mitra, Rudra, Agni, Vāyu, Pushan, Savitri, Parjanya, the sacrificial priests, were all asuras. In fine, Deva (god) and asura were synonymous expressions in a multitude of texts." Hindu Mythology, Vedic and Puranic: Part III. The Inferior Deities: Chapter VI. The Asuras

If that is not close to Aesir, then what is?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I do not limit Paganism only to Europe.

You might not, but we do. But again, not the issue I was addressing.

Our advantage is that we do not have to reconstruct anything. We have a vigorous continuous living Indo-European tradition.

It's not a competition, you know.

Asatru (of the Aesir):

Asatru actually means "Faith in/to the Æsir."

"All the Vedic gods have shared the same title, not excepting even goddesses." "Varuna was the all-knowing asura, Prajāpati the Supreme Being; Indra, the Maruts, Tvastri, Mitra, Rudra, Agni, Vāyu, Pushan, Savitri, Parjanya, the sacrificial priests, were all asuras. In fine, Deva (god) and asura were synonymous expressions in a multitude of texts."

Honestly, I see nothing close to the Æsir here.

Æsir is the tribe. A individual god is an ás, pluralized æsir. Odin is an ás, Odin and Thor are æsir. The feminine is ásynja, pluralized as ásynjur. Frigga is an ásynja, Frigga and Saga are ásynjur. More than this, there are also those of the Vanir tribe - such as Freyr and Freyja - and those who are Jotnar (sing. jotunn), such as Sif, Skadi, and Loki. Compound this that some - like Thor and Odin - were half-Jotun themselves.

In Asatru, and modern English, we use the terms "god" and "goddess", depending on the deity in question. But that really neuters what they are, and is indicative only of the worship of them. Yes, Thor is the God of Thunder, but more accurately he is the Ás of Thunder.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In Vedas, Asura is used in the sense of 'mighty'. Yes, even the Vanirs are mighty, that is why at places even the Vedic demon of darkness whom Indra kills, Vritra (one who covers), is called an 'asura'.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Only the Vanir aren't "demons", or even considered evil beings. Not even the Jotnar are truly considered evil, and many are helpful to mankind. So I'm still not seeing any connection.

 

[SomeRandom]

I agree. Those who claim similarities are picking simplistic ones (Shiva is not the God of death specifically. Well maybe in some traditions. He is the God of destruction that brings about the death of an old age so it can be reborn, as it were. Rough translation though that is I hope it made sense.)
I am very much going through a "classical story" phase as I often go through phases like this. Last month it was fairytales. So I'm excited to be diving into (hopefully good) translations of Ancient Norse creation stories as well as the Ramayana maybe. Reading some Classical Greek and Roman stuff right now.
I don't mean to imply that these aren't real of course. But that's how I'm describing it for me because I'm a reader and that's how I see the world. So please don't take offence anyone.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I don't mean to imply that these aren't real of course. But that's how I'm describing it for me because I'm a reader and that's how I see the world. So please don't take offence anyone.

Don't worry. Most Pagans recognize our mythology as just that, and for the large part stories using the Gods as characters. We don't take our creation myths literally.