Asatru vs. "Forn Sidr"?

[Toten]

I was doing some reading today about the modern practice of Germanic Paganism in its native countries, ie Scandinavia, Germany, England, Netherlands, France, etc. and came across a confusing set of ideas in the article about Paganism in Scandinavia:
"Neopaganism in Scandinavia is almost exclusively dominated by Germanic Heathenism, in forms and groups reviving Norse paganism. These are generally split into two streams characterised by a different approach to folk and folklore: Ásatrú, a movement that been associated with the most innovative and Edda-based approaches within Heathenry, and Forn Siðr, Forn Sed or Nordisk Sed, a movement marked by being generally more traditionalist, ethnic-focused and folklore-rooted, characterised by a worldview which its proponents call folketro ("faith of the folk", "folk religion"). Forn Siðr may also be a term for Scandinavian Heathenry in general."
I found this description rather vague and confusing. The rest of the article didn't help much. I had always believed "Asatru" was more or less interchangeable with most other terms in Heathenry, except for things like Odinism and of course Wotanism.
But in this article it describes Asatru in Scandinavia as being more "innovative and edda-based" whilst this "Forn Sidr" is "traditionalist, ethnic-focused and folklore-rooted".
I don't really understand this. From what I understand, all forms of Germanic Paganism involve the eddas, traditions, and more or less a bit of innovation and ethnic heritage.
I was wondering if anyone could give a more detailed and understandable difference between the two?

Is Asatru more creative and expansive whilst Forn Sidr isn't? I can't really tell.

PS: Later in the article it describes Asatru as being based on Reconstructionism and the revival of the old faith whilst "Forn Sidr" is the belief in a constant non-breaking tradition throughout the timmeline.
Though I still think this is just as vague.

 

[lovesong]

@Nietzsche... aaaaaand go!

 

[Nietzsche]

I was doing some reading today about the modern practice of Germanic Paganism in its native countries, ie Scandinavia, Germany, England, Netherlands, France, etc. and came across a confusing set of ideas in the article about Paganism in Scandinavia:
"Neopaganism in Scandinavia is almost exclusively dominated by Germanic Heathenism, in forms and groups reviving Norse paganism. These are generally split into two streams characterised by a different approach to folk and folklore: Ásatrú, a movement that been associated with the most innovative and Edda-based approaches within Heathenry, and Forn Siðr, Forn Sed or Nordisk Sed, a movement marked by being generally more traditionalist, ethnic-focused and folklore-rooted, characterised by a worldview which its proponents call folketro ("faith of the folk", "folk religion"). Forn Siðr may also be a term for Scandinavian Heathenry in general."
I found this description rather vague and confusing. The rest of the article didn't help much. I had always believed "Asatru" was more or less interchangeable with most other terms in Heathenry, except for things like Odinism and of course Wotanism.
But in this article it describes Asatru in Scandinavia as being more "innovative and edda-based" whilst this "Forn Sidr" is "traditionalist, ethnic-focused and folklore-rooted".
I don't really understand this. From what I understand, all forms of Germanic Paganism involve the eddas, traditions, and more or less a bit of innovation and ethnic heritage.
I was wondering if anyone could give a more detailed and understandable difference between the two?

Is Asatru more creative and expansive whilst Forn Sidr isn't? I can't really tell.

PS: Later in the article it describes Asatru as being based on Reconstructionism and the revival of the old faith whilst "Forn Sidr" is the belief in a constant non-breaking tradition throughout the timmeline.
Though I still think this is just as vague.

These are all more or less different terms meaning the same thing; modern belief in the Germanic pagan faiths. The degenerates who add a racial/folkist/volkisch edge to it tend to use terms like Forn Sidr, but not always.

 

[Toten]

These are all more or less different terms meaning the same thing; modern belief in the Germanic pagan faiths. The degenerates who add a racial/folkist/volkisch edge to it tend to use terms like Forn Sidr, but not always.

Well from what I've read before I always thought "Folkish" and "Volkisch" were different as well - Volkisch meaning with either a hardcore or subtle Aryan-worship National Socialist-twist like David Lane's Wotanism, and Folkish being things like the AFA who simply prefer those of some sort of European heritage?
Or am I wrong?

 

[Nietzsche]

Well from what I've read before I always thought "Folkish" and "Volkisch" were different as well - Volkisch meaning with either a hardcore or subtle Aryan-worship National Socialist-twist like David Lane's Wotanism, and Folkish being things like the AFA who simply prefer those of some sort of European heritage?
Or am I wrong?

Folkish/Folkist & Volkisch mean the exact same things, they're just translations. Folk is literally just the English variant of Volk. The AFA try to put a less negative spin on it, but they're still racist pricks that need to go away.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Folkish/Folkist & Volkisch mean the exact same things, they're just translations. Folk is literally just the English variant of Volk. The AFA try to put a less negative spin on it, but they're still racist pricks that need to go away.

Yeah, the AFA are full-on racists, homophobes and transphobes:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1154341757974486

If you look at some of the flags they have in their pictures, some of them look modeled after Nazi flags. For example, some of the flags on the wall here: https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=c9e25dbe23545cde448fee00b851ac98&oe=58D5F5D9

 

[Toten]

Yeah, the AFA are full-on racists, homophobes and transphobes:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1154341757974486

If you look at some of the flags they have in their pictures, some of them look modeled after Nazi flags. For example, some of the flags on the wall here: https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=c9e25dbe23545cde448fee00b851ac98&oe=58D5F5D9

I'd hardly call the AFA such things. People like David Lane or National Socialist groups for sure, but saying "we believe gender is not a social construct" is "transphobic" seems like quite a bit more than just a stretch.

When I think of "full-on racists, homophobes and transphobes", I imagine skinheads, gangs, and neo-nazis, not "we celebrate our white children".

As for the "Nazi" flags, why does it matter? If I had a group with red and yellow flag colors does that make me a Communist? As far as I can tell the one on the right looks pretty similar to the flags of Scandinavia and Switzerland, with the straight cross and red colors. The circle in the middle looks like an ancient sunwheel, on the top left are runes, and the bottom left is their logo, Odin's Horn, which is also on the middle flag. Can't tell what the one on the left is, it looks like a man and a woman dancing.

Not to mention the AFA disassociates from National Socialists, claiming whatever number of them participate with the group, they don't represent their core values.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'd hardly call the AFA such things. People like David Lane or National Socialist groups for sure, but saying "we believe gender is not a social construct" is "transphobic" seems like quite a bit more than just a stretch.

When I think of "full-on racists, homophobes and transphobes", I imagine skinheads, gangs, and neo-nazis, not "we celebrate our white children".

As for the "Nazi" flags, why does it matter? If I had a group with red and yellow flag colors does that make me a Communist? As far as I can tell the one on the right looks pretty similar to the flags of Scandinavia and Switzerland, with the straight cross and red colors. The circle in the middle looks like an ancient sunwheel, on the top left are runes, and the bottom left is their logo, Odin's Horn, which is also on the middle flag. Can't tell what the one on the left is, it looks like a man and a woman dancing.

Not to mention the AFA disassociates from National Socialists, claiming whatever number of them participate with the group, they don't represent their core values.

You sound like you're in denial. What's more, in the comments on that post, they said that LGBT+ and non-white people are not allowed in the AFA. AFA's racism and connections to the far-right are well-known and have been denounced a number of times: Stephen McNallen and the Asatru Folk Assembly: Racist Heathenry

If you look at pictures of some of their gatherings, you can see racist skinhead types in the crowds.

I guess you've never seen this flag? Because that's what the flag on the right looks pretty similar to.

Racism, sexism, transphobia and homophobia wrapped up to look "nice" is still hatred and bigotry.

 

[Toten]

You sound like you're in denial. What's more, in the comments on that post, they said that LGBT+ and non-white people are not allowed in the AFA. AFA's racism and connections to the far-right are well-known and have been denounced a number of times: Stephen McNallen and the Asatru Folk Assembly: Racist Heathenry

If you look at pictures of some of their gatherings, you can see racist skinhead types in the crowds.

I guess you've never seen this flag? Because that's what the flag on the right looks pretty similar to.

Racism, sexism, transphobia and homophobia wrapped up to look "nice" is still hatred and bigotry.

Seems like strawmans to me. If he believes in the idea of "White Genocide" that doesn't make him a White Supremacist.
If an African-American believes that there is institutional racism in the police department, which many people of many races believe, does that somehow make them a "Black Supremacist" and that they believe Africans reign supreme over other races?
I could write an article about a multicultural group like what I hear "The Troth" is considered to be, and say "They are pro-immigration and multiculturalism. So is barbara spectre. Therefore The Troth is a Jewish group, not Pagan". And that wouldn't make any sense.

And yes, I have seen that flag. I've also seen these:

All White Supremacist imagery right? Or just people who happen to adopt a stylistic method in banner design? Particularly common in a particular part of the world which the AFA happens to admire? (All of these images are from Scandinavia and Northern Europe).
I'd certainly hate to see behavior or stylistic changes by artists or group leaders simply because it looks too similar to the Nazis.
If that was the case, there'd be a lot of upset traditional Buddhists, who use such symbols.
If you want to argue that its an old symbol and was used long before the Nazis, so was the sunwheel. And that particular style of flag design, popular in Germanic nations.

 

[Toten]

I had no intentions of starting any heated debates, just thought I'd try to figure out the differences between the 2 in question. Unfortunately the simple statement "they're all just a bunch of racists" doesn't really help. Not because I disagree, but because it doesn't really answer the question - no more than saying "it doesn't matter they're all wonderful intelligent people" would.
If anyone wishes to accuse me of being a "National Socialist" or a "racist homophobe", I'll make it perfectly clear that I am not, simple as that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I had no intentions of starting any heated debates, just thought I'd try to figure out the differences between the 2 in question. Unfortunately the simple statement "they're all just a bunch of racists" doesn't really help. Not because I disagree, but because it doesn't really answer the question - no more than saying "it doesn't matter they're all wonderful intelligent people" would.
If anyone wishes to accuse me of being a "National Socialist" or a "racist homophobe", I'll make it perfectly clear that I am not, simple as that.

Since they're two terms that can be used for the same things, you can't really make blanket statements about it. You'd have to examine how the person is using it on an individual basis.

 

[Toten]

Since they're two terms that can be used for the same things, you can't really make blanket statements about it. You'd have to examine how the person is using it on an individual basis.

That makes sense, though what confused me the most was Wikipedia's description of the two, which I thought was rather vague. Especially when it contrasts "traditionalist, ethnic-focused and folklore-rooted" with " innovative and Edda-based", plus the fact that several self-identified Asatru groups are also folk related and traditionalist.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

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