Ashkenazi and Sepharadic

[dantech]

Hi guys,

A question came up that I couldn't really find an answer to.

When did Jews separate into two groups? Or rather, when did this division start? (Ashkenazi/Sepharadic)

I know both believe in the exact same thing, and both follow the exact same rules. However there are very minor differences. For example, Sepharadics are not permitted to eat fish and cheese together (Tuna melt ), while ashkenazis don't eat kitniyot durring passover.

Also, why do Ashkenazi Jews pronounce hebrew words differently? It is said that if one letter or vowel is changed in the Torah, then the whole Torah is pesoula... By reading it differently, wouldn't one of the baal korim be reading it wrong?


I am Jewish Orthodox BTW, I am just looking to learn a bit more on my ancestors and just general knowledge.

 

[Tarheeler]

From my understanding, it is simply a division that has occurred from generations of geographical separation and the development of particular customs, languages, and nuances in practice.

Ashkenazi lived in Europe, picked up local ideas, and developed their own customs over time. Sepharadic did the same in Spain and the Middle East.



And welcome to RF!

 

[dantech]

From my understanding, it is simply a division that has occurred from generations of geographical separation and the development of particular customs, languages, and nuances in practice.

Ashkenazi lived in Europe, picked up local ideas, and developed their own customs over time. Sepharadic did the same in Spain and the Middle East.



And welcome to RF!

Yes, this I know, my question is when did this initial seperation happen? I mean we all left Egypt together and went to the same country, when did they start splitting up into different countries is my question.

Thank you for the warm welcome

 

[Tarheeler]

Yes, this I know, my question is when did this initial seperation happen? I mean we all left Egypt together and went to the same country, when did they start splitting up into different countries is my question.

Thank you for the warm welcome

Jews have pretty much always been found in other places. Even before the periods of exile, merchants, mariners, and others would have made their way into other countries and formed communities. There are accounts of Jewish communities in Europe shortly after the beginning of the Common Era.

I don't think you're going to point-point an actual time that it all happened; devolving communities and diction traditions is a gradual process that takes a long time.

 

[Rakhel]

The split most likely happened during one of the exiles.

The difference in the pronunciation also has a lot to do with location. Yiddish is more closely related to German, while the Sephardic dialect, Ladino, was more closely related to Spanish. Ladino is falling out of practice, mostly in favor of Hebrew. You will still find the occasional Ladino speaker, but they are few and far between. (There is a Washington state synagogue that has a Ladino dictionary on their website)
Yiddish is more widely available. Further, to most Ashkenazim, Yiddish is their first language, while Hebrew is their second and English/German/French being their third, if they choose to learn it at all.

Why the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim pronounce the same words differently is a lot like the way the British English and the American English pronounce the word Lieutenant.
The British English would say "Lef-ten-ant," while American would say, "Lou-ten-ant" Where they get the "fff" sound is beyond me.


Oh and you can keep your tuna melt(blah)

 

[Caladan]

Yes, this I know, my question is when did this initial seperation happen? I mean we all left Egypt together and went to the same country, when did they start splitting up into different countries is my question.

Thank you for the warm welcome

Hi dantech. I am Ashkenazi-Sephardi Jew. I think you should be aware that you posted this question specifically in the 'Orthodox Judaism' DIR, there is a main Judaism DIR which the Jewish members post in regularly and where we address questions and engage in a discussion.

As far as I know the ammount of information about Jews settling in Europe in pre-medieval times is not as common as in medieval times onwards, so it's hard for me to pint point a 'split' between Ashkenazim and Sephardim. There is always the possibility of Jews moving through the mediterranean starting in Roman times, especially in light of the diaspora and the failed rebellions against the empire.
As for Egypt, even if the out of Egypt Biblical narrative was true, it would be a different time period which pre dated various dramatic historical events that influenced the movements of Jews, including the exile brought by the Assyrians and the sack of Jerusalem by Babylon.

As for linguistic differences. We are looking at geographical locations with very different linguistic basis. Ashkenazi Jews developed a Germanic dialect and their use of the Hebrew language was effected by Germanic languages, while Sephardim remained in a Semitic linguistic set which preserved the pronounciation of the language. For what it's worth in modern Israel Ashkenazim have adopted the Sephardi pronounciation, and modern Hebrew is pronounced by the Sephardi pronounciation. However, if you really want to trace authentic ancient Hebrew, the closest preservation exists with older Yemenite Jews who still pronounce the letter Tav in it's original way, like the Greek letter Theta.

 

[Harmonious]

I think that the difference started as far back as the Second Temple era. The majority of all world Jewry was in Babylonia, and only a small remnant followed Ezra and Nechemia back to Israel. Just the difference of being IN Israel and being OUT of Israel had to make changes to customs for simple living.

But I think the serious divisions started after the Second Temple was destroyed. Jews living more or less peacefully under Babylonian rule had different experiences than the Jews still living in Israel, harried by the Romans. Avoiding persecution helped develop some customs, while living peacefully amongst non-Jewish neighbors created others.

The Jews living in Israel, under Roman rule, probably stayed there once the Roman rule was taken over by Christians.

Jews living in Babylonia were left alone until the Zoroastrians became rather enthusiastic in their protection of who used fire when, and it didn't work out well for Jews. They had to move to other lands, and lands where Muslims ruled were where these Jews by and large chose to live.

Some of the customs developed around local resources. Some of the customs developed based on how Jews interacted with their non-Jewish neighbors.

I don't know about the source of all customs, but I think that is where the custom divide started.

 

[dantech]

I think that the difference started as far back as the Second Temple era. The majority of all world Jewry was in Babylonia, and only a small remnant followed Ezra and Nechemia back to Israel. Just the difference of being IN Israel and being OUT of Israel had to make changes to customs for simple living.

But I think the serious divisions started after the Second Temple was destroyed. Jews living more or less peacefully under Babylonian rule had different experiences than the Jews still living in Israel, harried by the Romans. Avoiding persecution helped develop some customs, while living peacefully amongst non-Jewish neighbors created others.

The Jews living in Israel, under Roman rule, probably stayed there once the Roman rule was taken over by Christians.

Jews living in Babylonia were left alone until the Zoroastrians became rather enthusiastic in their protction of who used fire when, and it didn't work out well for Jews. They had to move to other lands, and lands where Muslims ruled were where these Jews by and large chose to live.

Some of the customs developed around local resources. Some of the customs developed based on how Jews interacted with their non-Jewish neighbors.

I don't know about the source of all customs, but I think that is where the custom divide started.

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my question. I am going to look more deeply into what was said in this post. I'll see if I could learn anything else, but I think you have a good base on what might have happened

 

[Harmonious]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my question. I am going to look more deeply into what was said in this post. I'll see if I could learn anything else, but I think you have a good base on what might have happened

I learned a lot of Jewish history in both high school and college.

Rabbi Berel Wein has a lovely set of books out on Jewish history. Artscroll/Mesorah also has a couple of nice books, but Rabbi Wein's books focus on specific eras.

 

[Tumah]

I would guess that it would be a period sometime between the year 500 and 900 CE. By the time of Judah Leontin there was already an established Jewish community in Europe. During the time of the Gaonim though, I can't imagine that the Ashkenazic community would have been that sizable. I could be totally off though.

 

[Levite]

To the best of my knowledge, the chief influx of Jews into Europe-- outside of the Muslim-ruled Iberian peninsula-- began at the reign of Charlemagne, who reversed the anti-Semitic policies of the Merovingian dynasty, and opened Frankish lands and lands in the Frankish sphere of influence to Jewish immigration. He did it largely for reasons of trade and finance, as Jews at that time were heavily mercantile, with wide-ranging trade connections. That was only the beginning, of course, but from the first decade of the ninth century CE to the first of the eleventh century CE, the Jewish population of Europe increased a hundredfold or thereabouts.

 

[Caladan]

Well, I'd like to revisit the thread as well.

Hi guys,

A question came up that I couldn't really find an answer to.

When did Jews separate into two groups? Or rather, when did this division start? (Ashkenazi/Sepharadic)

During antiquity several calamities greatly influenced the movement of Jews both towards the Mediterranean and also further to the east. The Assyrian, Babylonian, and Roman conquests illustrate this very well.
I am still weary of pint pointing the historical moment of split, because history spans centuries, and centuries are composed of bigger and lesser events.
Jews did move through the Mediterranean in antiquity, long before the medieval era to various extents. Not necessarily to the Rhine land area, but there was Jewish presence in Rome during the reigns of Julius Caesar and Augustus for example, that is before the count of the Common Era. At large, Jews also moved through North Africa and took part in developing Carthage even before that, and Carthage was a highly well connected spot with strong relations to the Western Mediterranean. There is also archaeological record for Jewish presence in the Iberian Peninsula as early as the late fourth century CE. However, Jewish presence during such periods does not necessarily have to be related to Yiddish culture as we seem to know it.
When we jump to early medieval and medieval times there are of course many other events which effected Jewish movement and culture. Various monarchs opening their doors to Jews, while others crack down on them. Some of such events created various conditions for Jewish society in Europe to either decline or to flourish.
So technically, one has to have a certain degree of subjectivity to look at centuries of history and pint point that one exact moment when the split happened. When in fact Jews moved and migrated for various reasons for centuries, and naturally adopted 'foreign' baggage, and a degree of blending with the people of their region, for example by Jewish men marrying European women.

Also, why do Ashkenazi Jews pronounce hebrew words differently? It is said that if one letter or vowel is changed in the Torah, then the whole Torah is pesoula... By reading it differently, wouldn't one of the baal korim be reading it wrong?

I think it is obvious that centuries of living in Germanic (and perhaps other) speaking regions have greatly shaped Jewish culture and linguistics, it simply goes without saying. But to get technical lets look at the Hebrew letter Tav again.
While in Yiddish culture it is often pronounced as 'S', for example Shabbos, this is derived from the original pronunciation of the letter (when it is without the dagesh), which means that the authentic pronunciation is 'Th', some Sephardi and Yemenite Jews do preserve the pronunciation, but commonly in mainstream culture the pronunciation was lost and Tav is simply pronounced as 'T', with or without the dagesh.

 

[Tumah]

Oh, I didn't see this question.

Also, why do Ashkenazi Jews pronounce hebrew words differently? It is said that if one letter or vowel is changed in the Torah, then the whole Torah is pesoula... By reading it differently, wouldn't one of the baal korim be reading it wrong?

If you look at what you wrote you will realize you answered your own question. Adding or removing a letter renders a Torah Scroll pasul. Pronouncing it differently has no effect on the scroll. In fact even in the scroll itself certain letters used to be written differently, with various odd swirls or bends. But the presence of the letter remained.

The reason why we pronounce things differently is because of the influence of the countries we come from. The Jimmel, Thaleth, Waw, 'Heth, 'Ayin, Thav. Then there's the correct pronunciation of the cholam, kamatz and assorted chatafs. All those things were lost by varying degrees to the accents of the various regions we come from.

That is why remaining steadfast in the Tradition is so important. It is the only way to retain what we have. Some people are careful to the extent that if they are of the Lithuanian strain they will not listen to a Chassidic man read from the Torah for certain portions because their pronunciation is different.

 

[dantech]

I just look at all the synagogues around me, and all the Baal Korim (I am one as well), we pay so much attention to the pronunciation when we read that the slightest disagreement with a word I may have pronounced will start a whole argument.

Just to give you a few examples.

Ukshartem Otam Le'ot. Most people will read through it fast and say Ukshartemotam, but we take the time to make sure to separate these two words.

Bekhol Levavkhem. We make sure to pronounce both Lameds and not read it fast and end up pronouncing Bekholevavkhem.

As for the Tav with the Dagesh or not, we have two different ways of pronouncing it. When there is the Dagesh, it also has the T sound but the tongue goes further back and gives it a different sound. (Kind of hard to explain, but it sounds like a T and a D mixed together)

We make sure our Khaf is prounounced like a KH sound, while our Heit is prouncound more like a H sound that is leaning towards the KH sound.

These are just a few examples to show how pronunciation is so important to us when we read. So it confuses me that there are different pronunciations out there, because if I slightly change the way I pronounce my Tav, you could be certain that the Kahal will correct me, yet it's completely fine to pronounce it as a Sav if I were Ashkenazi?
You get my point?

 

[Caladan]

I just look at all the synagogues around me, and all the Baal Korim (I am one as well), we pay so much attention to the pronunciation when we read that the slightest disagreement with a word I may have pronounced will start a whole argument.

Just to give you a few examples.

Ukshartem Otam Le'ot. Most people will read through it fast and say Ukshartemotam, but we take the time to make sure to separate these two words.

Bekhol Levavkhem. We make sure to pronounce both Lameds and not read it fast and end up pronouncing Bekholevavkhem.

Well, I have to say that I am surprised that people who recite from the Torah or prayer books would be so sloppy as to be so hasty that they blend words together, especially since from what I understand from your post they are expected to read properly, clearly, and to celebrate the uniqueness of Hebrew liturgy.

As for the Tav with the Dagesh or not, we have two different ways of pronouncing it. When there is the Dagesh, it also has the T sound but the tongue goes further back and gives it a different sound. (Kind of hard to explain, but it sounds like a T and a D mixed together)

Out of curiosity do you find it common in your Sephardi surroundings for people to pronounce Tav as 'Th' when it is supposed to be pronounced in such a way?

These are just a few examples to show how pronunciation is so important to us when we read. So it confuses me that there are different pronunciations out there, because if I slightly change the way I pronounce my Tav, you could be certain that the Kahal will correct me, yet it's completely fine to pronounce it as a Sav if I were Ashkenazi?
You get my point?

Not really, I don't. Because surly you must have considered that most Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews lived in Semitic speaking environment, which makes it very easy to understand why Semitic pronunciation of Heth for example survived. While Ashkenazi Jews have a long standing centuries old existence in Germanic and Slavic speaking regions, making the preservation of Hebrew pronunciation much more challenging.
If you would ask, why don't different Jewish communities find it more important to reaffirm the Classical Hebrew pronunciation, I might have understood your point better.

 

[dantech]

Well, I have to say that I am surprised that people who recite from the Torah or prayer books would be so sloppy as to be so hasty that they blend words together, especially since from what I understand from your post they are expected to read properly, clearly, and to celebrate the uniqueness of Hebrew liturgy.
Out of curiosity do you find it common in your Sephardi surroundings for people to pronounce Tav as 'Th' when it is supposed to be pronounced in such a way?

Well, we are Mizrahim/Sepharadim mostly, as you said. And I would say that those that do keep the pronunciation as close to the original as possible are those who either grew up in Morocco, so most of the 60+ year olds in those communities or their children. I didn't grow up in Morocco, but my parents did. I am looking to teach my children the proper pronunciation but I wouldn't say that it's a dominant concern in our surroundings.

Not really, I don't. Because surly you must have considered that most Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews lived in Semitic speaking environment, which makes it very easy to understand why Semitic pronunciation of Heth for example survived. While Ashkenazi Jews have a long standing centuries old existence in Germanic and Slavic speaking regions, making the preservation of Hebrew pronunciation much more challenging.
If you would ask, why don't different Jewish communities find it more important to reaffirm the Classical Hebrew pronunciation, I might have understood your point better.

You phrased the question better than I did, but that's exactly what I meant.

 

[Tumah]

I just look at all the synagogues around me, and all the Baal Korim (I am one as well), we pay so much attention to the pronunciation when we read that the slightest disagreement with a word I may have pronounced will start a whole argument.

Just to give you a few examples.

Ukshartem Otam Le'ot. Most people will read through it fast and say Ukshartemotam, but we take the time to make sure to separate these two words.

Bekhol Levavkhem. We make sure to pronounce both Lameds and not read it fast and end up pronouncing Bekholevavkhem.

As for the Tav with the Dagesh or not, we have two different ways of pronouncing it. When there is the Dagesh, it also has the T sound but the tongue goes further back and gives it a different sound. (Kind of hard to explain, but it sounds like a T and a D mixed together)

We make sure our Khaf is prounounced like a KH sound, while our Heit is prouncound more like a H sound that is leaning towards the KH sound.

These are just a few examples to show how pronunciation is so important to us when we read. So it confuses me that there are different pronunciations out there, because if I slightly change the way I pronounce my Tav, you could be certain that the Kahal will correct me, yet it's completely fine to pronounce it as a Sav if I were Ashkenazi?
You get my point?

I didn't mean to say that pronunciation isn't important. Just the opposite, there are a number of books that warn against combining devukos (that is when the same letter that ends one word also begins the next- one often combines both words. DaVuK means attatched). The pronunciation of every word is important. But how you pronounce that word is up to your Tradition.

 

[dantech]

I just heard something, and I'm not sure of how true it is but I'll share anyways, and you'll tell me what you think.

I was told that in the time of the Tzemach Tzedek (~1800) there was a rise in spies who were against Judaism, especially in the places where Lubavitch would send Shilouchim, which happened to be in mostly Ashkenazi areas. These spies would learn Hebrew and forbid Jews from doing what they were taught.

So apparently, the Tzemach Tzedek developed this dialect to weed out the spies. Only those who knew the accent were Shilouchim, and they could coordinate with each other without fear of the other one being undercover.

I have nothing to support this theory, just something I heard.

 

[Tumah]

I just heard something, and I'm not sure of how true it is but I'll share anyways, and you'll tell me what you think.

I was told that in the time of the Tzemach Tzedek (~1800) there was a rise in spies who were against Judaism, especially in the places where Lubavitch would send Shilouchim, which happened to be in mostly Ashkenazi areas. These spies would learn Hebrew and forbid Jews from doing what they were taught.

So apparently, the Tzemach Tzedek developed this dialect to weed out the spies. Only those who knew the accent were Shilouchim, and they could coordinate with each other without fear of the other one being undercover.

I have nothing to support this theory, just something I heard.

It sounds a little fishy. You would think that there would be some Ashkenazim that it wouldn't have spread to if that was the case. It was only 200 years ago.

 

[Tarheeler]

It sounds a little fishy. You would think that there would be some Ashkenazim that it wouldn't have spread to if that was the case. It was only 200 years ago.

My rabbi thinks it's due to linguistic differences in the regions. Germanic people had trouble with some of the sounds (such as "th"), and used the more comfortable "s" instead.