athanasius
Well-Known Member
So what do you churches of Christ members believe about the early Church? Are you like the mormons in your view of the apostacy??????
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ask a Church of Christ member
- Thread starter athanasius
- Start date
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
Ok, well I'm really nondenominational, but the sign out front of my church buolding says "Church of Christ" on it, so I guess you could consider me a church of Christ member.
Ok, I really have no clue what the apostacy is, but I somewhat doubt we're similar to Mormon in our views on anything. Not to offend the LDS members here...just saying that our...denominations...for lack of a better word, are as differant as can be.
However, I can tell you what we believe about the early Church. Churches of Christ generally strive to be exactly as the early church was. We try to follow their example perfectly. That is the reason why we don't use musical instruments in our worship, or anything. If you could make your questions a bit more detailed, I might be able to give better answers! I doubt that answer was satisfactory.
Ok, I really have no clue what the apostacy is, but I somewhat doubt we're similar to Mormon in our views on anything. Not to offend the LDS members here...just saying that our...denominations...for lack of a better word, are as differant as can be.
However, I can tell you what we believe about the early Church. Churches of Christ generally strive to be exactly as the early church was. We try to follow their example perfectly. That is the reason why we don't use musical instruments in our worship, or anything. If you could make your questions a bit more detailed, I might be able to give better answers! I doubt that answer was satisfactory.
SoyLeche
meh...
I can't help but wonder if the group you really want to ask this question to is the "Community of Christ" - which was formerly known as the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". They are a group that was largely formed by followers of Joseph Smith that didn't follow Brigham Young to Utah.athanasius said:
As far as I know, the "Churches of Christ" has no relation to the LDS church.
If that wasn't what you were thinking - disregard this post
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
The churches of Christ will only cite the scriptures when it comes to the apostasy.
II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. NIV
But the scriptures also promise a remnant.
Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV
II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. NIV
But the scriptures also promise a remnant.
Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
What is this apostacy?!?!?!?!?! I better go research it...I attend a church of Christ of sorts, and I have no idea what apostacy is...
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Apostasy means to abandon your religion.
Herein lies the biggest problem. Quite often man writes his own version of Christianity. This is not true aposatasy as much as it is subversion. However, people love to assign the worst motives and names to what they see as sin.
Herein lies the biggest problem. Quite often man writes his own version of Christianity. This is not true aposatasy as much as it is subversion. However, people love to assign the worst motives and names to what they see as sin.
athanasius
Well-Known Member
ChrisP said:
Yes I have and its sad. Thats why I am trying to figure out why they beieve such a sad thing. Isn't this Church of Christ, the same campbellite Church that was founded in the 1800's by Presbyterians and Baptist?? Interesting? Just curious.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
They took a radical departure from the reformists and the protestants. Rather than try to modify a man made church, they simply looked to the first century church for their inspiration. If it's not found in the scriptures, then it's likely not in their worship service.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It can mean that, but it can also mean a "falling away" from correct doctrines in a more general sense. When Paul said that there would be "an apostasia" before the Second Coming of Christ, I don't believe he was telling his audience that they would abandon their religion. I don't even think he was saying that "some would abandon their religion" before Christ returned, because by that time, clearly some already had. I believe -- and I'm pretty sure you'll disagree -- that he was speaking of a more general "falling away" -- a falling away from the truth by the Church Christ established itself.NetDoc said:
athanasius
Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
Problem with this is, Luther and Calvin thought they were doing the same thing! They thought they were returning Christianity back to the original first century Church and to the original biblical way too. They both thought they were returning to biblical doctrine but yet both of them dissagreed with each other on biblical interpretation and doctrine. Neither of them could agree on the bibles doctrines because they lacked a Central Ecclesiastical Authority given to them by Christ to tell them if there interpratation was correct. In a like manner, the Campbellites(Churches of Christ) also follow the same method. They say that they go by the true biblical interpretation and have true biblical worship and doctrine but when it comes down to it they (Like Luther and Calvin) have absolutley no way of knowing if there interpretation of the bible is correct. They cetainly do not worship the way the first century Christians did, reading the didache Ad 70 clearly shows that.
If they really went by the first century teachings then they would not believe in the doctrine of sola scriptura, which is one of the man-made doctrines of the protestant reformers. Sola scriptura is only found in man-made protestantism and is no where found in the sacred scripture at all, not to mention the early first century Christian writings.
In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
So...
you really dun't want to know WHAT we believe. It appears that you are full bent on debating what you think I believe rather than just accept it at face value. I would suggest that you might want to start another thread in the debate forum, or simply declare yourself a troll.
There is no problem with my perception here. Campbell learned from the failings of Luther and Calvin and did not want to repeat them. Rather than try to reform any ot the man made Churches he returned to the roots of christianity and restored the church of Christ as close to it's original structure as possible. The church is still being restored today as the Spirit moves men and women of faith to understand God's will.
We do not ascribe to "Sola Scriptura" as you would have everyone believe. Indeed, rather than rely on the frailties of humanity to tell us what YOU think is right, we rely on the Spirit to guide us into everything. Too many who claim to be christian have denied the role of the Spirit in governing the body of Christ.
PS... the churches of Christ are autonomous. Ergo, we do not capitalize "church" as it is not a formal name that belongs to a denomination. We are christians only, but not the only christians. Should you want more clarification on WHAT I believe, I welcome your questions. However, should you wish to debate what I believe then please start something in the debate section of the board.
you really dun't want to know WHAT we believe. It appears that you are full bent on debating what you think I believe rather than just accept it at face value. I would suggest that you might want to start another thread in the debate forum, or simply declare yourself a troll.
There is no problem with my perception here. Campbell learned from the failings of Luther and Calvin and did not want to repeat them. Rather than try to reform any ot the man made Churches he returned to the roots of christianity and restored the church of Christ as close to it's original structure as possible. The church is still being restored today as the Spirit moves men and women of faith to understand God's will.
We do not ascribe to "Sola Scriptura" as you would have everyone believe. Indeed, rather than rely on the frailties of humanity to tell us what YOU think is right, we rely on the Spirit to guide us into everything. Too many who claim to be christian have denied the role of the Spirit in governing the body of Christ.
PS... the churches of Christ are autonomous. Ergo, we do not capitalize "church" as it is not a formal name that belongs to a denomination. We are christians only, but not the only christians. Should you want more clarification on WHAT I believe, I welcome your questions. However, should you wish to debate what I believe then please start something in the debate section of the board.
athanasius
Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
Ok I do not want to debate. Sorry about the confusion Im just trying to understand. You say you do not believe in sola scriptura. Thats very good. I guess I was wrong. The way you talked just sounded like you believed in Sola Scriptura. Forgive me. So if you do not believe that the bible is the Ultimate sole Authority for a Christian on matters of faith and morals(which is the concept of Sola Scriptura), then what do you believe about Authority for Christians? Just curious?
Again I do not want to debate. Maybe we can have a dialgue in another forum later on on this just you and me. But now I will just listen and try to understadn your postion my brother.
God bless you in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius
yes i agree and Jesus did say that weeds would be crowding out the good wheat, so it started to happen very early on . the good wheat was sown but satan put in the weeds , and it is only in the harvest when it becomes clear who the wheat really are, because the weeds and the wheat all grow up togeather and it is difficult to know who the real wheat is . and Jesus said dont uproot the weeds until the harvest because it might uproot the wheat also . he said to wait
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'm familiar with the early Stone-Campbell Movement, being a Disciple of Christ clergy person. No. The churches of Christ do not believe in apostasy in the "classic" sense of the word. The impetus for the Movement was the unification, or reunification of the Body of Christ in a format that would not include denominationalism.
They sought to return the Church to the simple, basic way of the "first believers." Hence, the churches of the Stone-Campbell Movement are termed "restoration" churches. The tool these churches used to reaffirm unity was a rejection of all formal statements of faith, formulas, and doctrines. They believed that to be part of the Church, one has only to publicly affirm a belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior, and to be immersed in baptism.
They do not believe that people of any other faith are apostate. They wish only to have all Christians join together in common fellowship and worship, leaving the details of belief and praxis to the individual and to the individual parishes.
They sought to return the Church to the simple, basic way of the "first believers." Hence, the churches of the Stone-Campbell Movement are termed "restoration" churches. The tool these churches used to reaffirm unity was a rejection of all formal statements of faith, formulas, and doctrines. They believed that to be part of the Church, one has only to publicly affirm a belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior, and to be immersed in baptism.
They do not believe that people of any other faith are apostate. They wish only to have all Christians join together in common fellowship and worship, leaving the details of belief and praxis to the individual and to the individual parishes.
Vassal
Member
I personally am not familiar with the Campbell movement, in fact I only heard of it about two weeks ago, but the Churches of Christ in my area dont seem to regard the movement with any kind of authority. I grew up in a Church of Christ, left for about 3 years or so while I was in High School, but recently started attending another Church of Christ. In all the 17 years of so Ive been attending a Church of Christ Id never even heard of Campbell, until about two weeks ago while browsing the internet.
To be honest, Ive never really looked at any official Church of Christ doctrine. I do know that they officially believe that one must be baptized for salvation, but I personally would disagree with that. I believe that salvation comes from faith alone, and not any human ceremony or work. I do believe that baptism is a step of obedience, and that anyone with true faith will be baptized, but that it is a work of obedience to God. Salvation comes through faith alone and there is no need to worry about things such as was I baptized correctly or do I need to be baptized again, or anything else relating to works.
Churches of Christ do believe that there are apostate faiths, but not because they arent Churches of Christ. We believe that anyone with faith in Christ will be saved. Im not sure of the Church of Christ official stance on religions that believe in faith + works for salvation, such as Catholics, but I would say that anyone who thinks they have earned salvation is probably not saved.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Jesus was pretty explicit about NOT calling anyone on earth "Father" (Pope) or "Rabbi". Why? It is my heartfelt belief that he did not want ANYONE to see ANY authority as residing HERE on the earth.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. NIV
As for what to believe, the Spirit will guide you, if you let him.