Ask Anything about Me or my Religion (Restored Gospel/Mormonism).

[Neuropteron]

The Gold Plates that were dug up from Joseph Smith were to be hidden from any person. Only a handful of witnesses were allowed to view the plates with their own eyes and their unified testimony is recorded in the front of the Book of Mormon.
Life is a test of whether to doubt or believe.

As for the Stone Tablets, Do we have them today? Where did they go? Even if they were seen publically, how can we be sure they even existed? Were they really written in God's handwriting?

Hi,
"Life is a test of whether to doubt or believe. "

That is true, since our faith will be tested. Nonetheless faith needs to have a basis of evidence, just as a house needs a foundation.

What is the foundation for believing that Gold Plates were written and then kept hidden for only a select few to see?
Should we not ask, why was it hidden? who were these selected men who gave a testimony? Why should I believe them ? Perhaps a question ignored by many, which God made the plates ?

As you say we don't have the stone tablets today, but there are many thing we do know about them, for one they were not hidden, and yes even after much fact finding we still will be confronted with reason to doubt and having to decide whether to put faith in it, but at least we can have an explainable reason to believe.

Depending on the effort we make we can even have a firm foundation for our faith, personally I fail to discern this potential with the claim that God wrote on Gold plates, but maybe you can dispel this doubts.

 

[Colt]

This, I presume, is the 'Hubble Deep Field' image.
It's a picture of elments of our own universe.
The bible says that God lies outside of our universe.

God cannot reside WITHIN our creation - if He did then how could He have created the universe?
And for that matter, if there's no God then how did the universe create itself when it didn't exist?
And WHY would the universe create itself when it didn't exist?

Gods spirit is present within the universe. There is a geographical location of God, an eternal abode or Paradise at the center of his creation.

 

[PruePhillip]

My post was very specific already. If somebody wants to look for men’s testimony for truth, then that must also accept the archeological evidence supporting the stories of Mohammad and Buddha. And scientificly reject a literal interpretation of Genesis 6 day creation.

If that’s your thing, then I acknowledge that.

As for me, I don’t look to men for God’s Truth.

TWO Genesis accounts - somehow the much more SYMBOLIC account has slipped in.
The bible was most likely split in two for centuries when there were two Jewish nations,
Israel and Juda - and we get two versions of some stories, now in the same book.

With the Genesis 1 account
- treat the 'days' as symbols of events.
ignore one duplication
understand that bringing forth light three times is really being repetitive

so God created the heavens
and the earth

and now we are on the earth itself - the observer must stand somewhere in this universe
and he/she can't be in orbit 'cos that wasn't understood till much later.

The earth was a twin of Venus - oceanic, sterile, cloud planet.
For earth the skies cleared (failure to clear doomed Venus to greenhouse effect)
the continents rose
life appeared on land (yes, fresh water)
life appeared in the ocean
man appeared.

That's the exact sequence - but there are bits missing 'cos it aint a science book and we
don't need to know about lava, ice ages, meterors, super-nova explosions, planetary alignment,
ocean acidification, dinosaurs, neanderthals, possible rings around the earth and a gazillion other
events in the past 4.5 billion years.


As for the flood. This is a Sumerian story and Sumerians had a different kind of 'world' to the one
we understand.
The Abrahamic accounts - slowly swimming into archaelogical focus. Now we firm evidence for the
Sodom and Gomorrah story ca 1650 BC at Tell al Hammon in the Jordan Valley - cometary or asteroid
air burst.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Hi,
"Life is a test of whether to doubt or believe. "

That is true, since our faith will be tested. Nonetheless faith needs to have a basis of evidence, just as a house needs a foundation.

What is the foundation for believing that Gold Plates were written and then kept hidden for only a select few to see?
Should we not ask, why was it hidden? who were these selected men who gave a testimony? Why should I believe them ? Perhaps a question ignored by many, which God made the plates ?

As you say we don't have the stone tablets today, but there are many thing we do know about them, for one they were not hidden, and yes even after much fact finding we still will be confronted with reason to doubt and having to decide whether to put faith in it, but at least we can have an explainable reason to believe.

Depending on the effort we make we can even have a firm foundation for our faith, personally I fail to discern this potential with the claim that God wrote on Gold plates, but maybe you can dispel this doubts.

I have never seen the literal Ark of the Covenant with the stone tablets carved by God therein. Still I believe, and I do not find that irrational. I've never literally seen & felt Christ's scarred hands, still I believe. I have seen picture of Jerusalem, but they don't stir me to faith. I have seen picture of Mecca and the Islamic kaaba, and such does not stir me to faith.

What does stir me to faith is the Holy Spirit testifying in my heart. I experiment on His words, over and over again. Rationally thinking & studying things through. Testing cause & effect- is there good fruit found when I do as He says? When I do otherwise, is the fruit good or bad? "Faith" does not equate to "shut off your brain & just follow", but rather faith is an action word. Faith is lived, learned, experimented, ponder deeply, over and over again for decades. Christ is that firm foundation, and He is indeed rational.

 

[PruePhillip]

Gods spirit is present within the universe. There is a geographical location of God, an eternal abode or Paradise at the center of his creation.

Really? Mars? the dog star Sirus? The God of the bible is a spirit - and a spirit is something
that can pass through objects - so what surface can it sit upon? And what air does it breath?
Revelations gives us a picture of this heaven - no time, no sea, no sun. That is outside the
universe.
But can God reside anywhere? Scripture says God abides in the hearts of those who love
Him - 'you are the temple of the living God.'

 

[Watchmen]

I find there really is nothing good that comes from debates. I don't mean to be rude to politicians, If there was once something good about debates, they have really squeezed the life out of it. Plus, in written median I think any answer has already been published so I wouldn't be presenting new information just as you wouldn't be given me what has already been discussed about the subject of my religion. If there is something new you think I haven't heard, I welcome to place it on the table, but to debate about whether what I believe is what I believe has never been a positive experience for me.

Are you aware the artistic depictions shared in Primary and Sunday School of Joseph Smith translating the gold plates are inaccurate and/or incomplete?

 

[stvdv]

IF a Christian claims:

"I believe knowing, following, and believing in Jesus Christ is the only way to lead to God. Period."

THEN my answer will be

Thank you for your clear answer

I expected this, but good to know for sure, because I decided to not talk to people who believe this

Reason: They belittle my Faith and other (non) Faiths. So, this will be my final reply to you

Now you reply to me with:

Note: your right to believe as you do is so important to LDS Christians, it’s literally in our Articles of Faith. You worship how and what you may. Sorry I can’t copy paste on my phone.

Then my question to you is:
Do you agree with me, that the LDS person I replied to interprets LDS wrongly and that a Christian indeed has no right to belittle my (others') (non) Faith, by claiming:
"Jesus us the ONLY way FOR ALL"
(As it implies "your (non) Faith is bogus")

(OR put differently: Do you agree with the RF Rules "You are not allowed (it's a "sin", as in that it might get you banned from RF "Heaven" so to speak) to impose your (non) Faith on others nor to belittle others' (non) Faith nor even steer them away from their (non) Faith"? )

I'm fine if a Christian claims:
"Jesus is the ONLY way FOR ME"
@stvdvRF

 

[Jane.Doe]

IF a Christian claims:


THEN my answer will be



Now you reply to me with:

Then my question to you is:
Do you agree with me, that the LDS person I replied to interprets LDS wrong and that a Christian indeed has no right to belittle my (others') (non) Faith, by claiming:
"Jesus us the ONLY way FOR ALL"
(As it implies "your (non) Faith is bogus")

(OR put differently: Do you agree with the RF Rules "You are not allowed (it's a "sin", as in that it might get you banned from RF "Heaven" so to speak) to impose your (non) Faith on others nor to belittle others' (non) Faith nor even steer them away from their (non) Faith"? )

I'm fine if a Christian claims:
"Jesus is the ONLY way FOR ME"

You have the right to believe as you do, Christian or not, religious or not. If you study and honestly come to conclusion that XYZ is the Truth, then yes, it should be respected. If you say “no thank you to somebody trying to push their beliefs”, then that should be listened to and respected. A person should Never belittle or attack another person’s beliefs, even if they passionately passionately disagree with those beliefs.

And yes I admittedly get very impatient with Christians who constantly push their beliefs when you’ve already said “no thank you.”

 

[stvdv]

You have the right to believe as you do, Christian or not, religious or not. If you study and honestly come to conclusion that XYZ is the Truth, then yes, it should be respected. If you say “no thank you to somebody trying to push their beliefs”, then that should be listened to and respected. A person should Never belittle or attack another person’s beliefs, even if they passionately passionately disagree with those beliefs.

And yes I admittedly get very impatient with Christians who constantly push their beliefs when you’ve already said “no thank you.”

Thank you, that feels good

My Master phrased it as:
"No one has the right to even criticize your (non) Faith"

One explanation why this is paramount:
Your Faith is between you and your conscience. And if you don't hurt others with it, it should be respected. If you allow them to criticize your (non) Faith, then you allow them to disrespect you (at core level; Faith, feelings) which is very unhealthy for you on physical, mental, emotional and Spiritual level

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Regarding levels of glory, can you explain why any female would be interested in polygamny as their highest level of glory? DC132.

The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage is this: A man and a woman who is sealed by the Word of God (proper priesthood authority) and keeps the covenants made in the temple, will obtain the Highest Degree of the Celestial Kingdom. Polygamy never had to be included for that covenant to hold weight. In fact, polygamy would probably be the great minority of people that the covenant would apply to in that way. God will not force you to be with someone you are unhappy with. If a woman prefers to be in a polygamous relationship, it has never been a doctrine of the Church where they are kept from the highest degree of Glory same as one who prefers not to be in a polygamous relationship. Monogamy is greatly advertised by the Book of Mormon and the Church, yet its doctrine will not exclude those people who have accepted polygamy as their structure of relationship. I do not know exactly how relationships really look like in heaven, I don't know if there are still sexual urges, or if there is a deeper emotional connection between a man and a woman that makes sex inconceivable or obsolete, truth is I don't know. All I know is while God doesn't always promote Polygamy He doesn't condone it and I'm sure that he wanted people to know that in D and C 132.

In the end of all end we have the freedom of choice. God does say sex after marriage. Marriage is a committed relationship where the man will support and honor the marriage as the woman sees fit and vice versa, to me, this is infinitely better than what is happening in the world where single mothers are all too common from one night stands and guys bailing on the responsibility of the relationship. God needs commitment of both sexes and it needs to be sealed by his Word. That is the meat of the doctrine.

 

[oldbadger]

Sorry that was a mistake. I wanted to say the whole bible old and new glorifies Jesus and the Book of Mormon does too. Having the gospels is super critical to have, but without everything else it wouldn't make much sense.

OK, if that's what you believe..........

For me the gospels have all the information about Jesus that there is. I take great interest in what happened.

 

[stvdv]

I believe knowing, following, and believing in Jesus Christ is the only way to lead to God. Period.

II 'm sorry that others who claim this belittle your faith. For us we have the 11th article of faith 'We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.'

Thank you. Phrased in the way Joseph Smith did (11th Article) feels good, and better than you phrased yours (1st quote).

If you had phrased it like below, I would have agreed, as it would be conform LDS 11th Article
I believe knowing, following, and believing in Jesus Christ is the only way FOR ME to lead to God. Period.

Without adding "for me" it implies that it applies to all (humans), making it disrespectful and belittling towards other's Faith. Thereby also going against the respectfully formulated Article 11. Especially when added "Period" without "for me".

Do you feel the difference?

Note: Reading how Joseph Smith phrased Article 11, I have no doubt that Joseph Smith was Divinely inspired. Because that was a huge transformation after 2000 years of Christianity claiming "Jesus is the only way for all".

Baha'u'llah (also Divinely inspired IMHO) said it in a similar way as Joseph Smith (to respect all Faiths). Even in the same year almost. So, it seems to me we live in an age where a huge shift is happening.

Maybe because this very important Article still was violated by the majority of Christians and many others, so many inspired people are send to earth to say this now.

My Master made it even more clear by declaring "Nobody even has the right to criticize people who have a different Faith"

And My Master upped the challenge even by declaring "it's easy to tolerate other's Faith, but you should even encourage others to follow their own path".
That is exactly what I also understand from reading LDS Article 11.

 

[oldbadger]

Of course scriptures are important and of course I have studied them thoroughly.

What point are you trying to make?

Point?
I was asking a question. But it's great to read that you have studied scriptures thoroughly.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Hi,
"Life is a test of whether to doubt or believe. "

That is true, since our faith will be tested. Nonetheless faith needs to have a basis of evidence, just as a house needs a foundation.

What is the foundation for believing that Gold Plates were written and then kept hidden for only a select few to see?
Should we not ask, why was it hidden? who were these selected men who gave a testimony? Why should I believe them ? Perhaps a question ignored by many, which God made the plates ?

As you say we don't have the stone tablets today, but there are many thing we do know about them, for one they were not hidden, and yes even after much fact finding we still will be confronted with reason to doubt and having to decide whether to put faith in it, but at least we can have an explainable reason to believe.

Depending on the effort we make we can even have a firm foundation for our faith, personally I fail to discern this potential with the claim that God wrote on Gold plates, but maybe you can dispel this doubts.

The Spirit of God dispels doubts not me. All I can say is that for me, the existence of the plates is far less important than the content that it contains. Just like the tablets of the Ten Commandments, do I care if I see them with my own eyes or do I care to follow what they are telling the world. Thou shalt not Kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not bear false witness, Cheat steal, honor your Father and Mother, keep the Sabbath Day Holy, Don't Covet, Don't have other gods before the True God. Don't take the Lords Name in vain.

The Book of Mormon teaches a man to do good and follow Christ and that Christ came to more than just the people of Jerusalem. That is the weight of its content among the implication that a restoration has been made. I read the Book of Mormon and found it to be true by the Spirit of God that is in me. For that reason, I don't need to see if with my eyes, in order to know it is real.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Are you aware the artistic depictions shared in Primary and Sunday School of Joseph Smith translating the gold plates are inaccurate and/or incomplete?

Yes. Just as I am aware that the depiction of a white European Jesus that hangs on every monastery in Europe and America is also inaccurate. I still believe in Jesus and I still believe Joseph was telling the truth about the plates, I can see how the skeptics would find it very convenient for Joseph just to make everything up about the plates in general, yet for me, If Joseph was a self-promoted liar, and I were to critique his methods of forgery and fraud on his success as a conman, here's what I would say to Joseph:

Hey kid, I like the Gold plates idea because people turn their ears at any mention of that, I like the 'after the fact' story manipulation to make your story more believable and keep people believing you had Gold plates when you didn't. Hat and a rock... Nice touch, a little crazy but hey we're into that in the 1800's right? Ohh. You got other people to testify and write their names that these plates exist. People are going to eat that up. Award winning work on creating a very geniune and heartfelt recreation of an Ancient civilization that matches so many elements of the Bible and Jewish literature. I mean I think 600 pages is a little excessive to say the least, but I think you really hit home with the bait and switch routine. You got everything set up my friend time to cash out, go from city to city and just sell it like no ones business, you'll be rich, famous, women will be at your feet, and when you got your fill just move to the next town. Wait what? You got married? Thats rule number one, you don't get settled down with things like this, You have to be on the move. Sloppy, just sloppy work, and you got a following. This is bad, at least their paying you right? No? You're being kicked out of your house and tarred and feathered. Dude I don't think you know how this works, your supposed to live it large. Just call it quits man. This is not getting any better for you. What you want to keep going, your spending money on temples, dude that wasn't the deal you need your followers to build you a house not some God you just made up. Of course you died. So much for all those lies and deception, you got nothing out of it.

Joseph Smith got nothing out of lying and deceit. No real fame, no real money, He had women, but married so not even living the bachelor Indiana Jones life he wanted.

We can say Joseph lied about the Book of Mormon and that he was a really poor overworked unsuccessful conman. Or we can say that He told the truth, and he was a literal prophet of God. If there is one thing I learned from religion and life experience is that lies snowball into more lies and become uncontrollable that they either get buried by future leaders like they never happened or they turn churches into a whatever people say goes type of church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints to me couldn't have been built on a lie, purely because the way the Church is today couldn't be doing more good for its members, for its community, and for the world in its humanitarian works. It didn't snowball to something entirely different than how it is today, nor did it forsake the teachings of old and that of Jesus Christ. For this reason I believe Joseph Smith told the truth. I believe that He truly died believing that He saw God and Jesus, and I believe there was a reason the Book of Mormon was translated the way it was intended, using all materials given to Joseph by God including the Gold Plates as his story suggests.

 

[Left Coast]

***MOD POST***

This is a reminder that this thread is in Interfaith Discussion. As such, it is not a debate thread.

Please be mindful of this when asking questions or replying to answers.

 

[Watchmen]

Yes. Just as I am aware that the depiction of a white European Jesus that hangs on every monastery in Europe and America is also inaccurate. I still believe in Jesus and I still believe Joseph was telling the truth about the plates, I can see how the skeptics would find it very convenient for Joseph just to make everything up about the plates in general, yet for me, If Joseph was a self-promoted liar, and I were to critique his methods of forgery and fraud on his success as a conman, here's what I would say to Joseph:

Hey kid, I like the Gold plates idea because people turn their ears at any mention of that, I like the 'after the fact' story manipulation to make your story more believable and keep people believing you had Gold plates when you didn't. Hat and a rock... Nice touch, a little crazy but hey we're into that in the 1800's right? Ohh. You got other people to testify and write their names that these plates exist. People are going to eat that up. Award winning work on creating a very geniune and heartfelt recreation of an Ancient civilization that matches so many elements of the Bible and Jewish literature. I mean I think 600 pages is a little excessive to say the least, but I think you really hit home with the bait and switch routine. You got everything set up my friend time to cash out, go from city to city and just sell it like no ones business, you'll be rich, famous, women will be at your feet, and when you got your fill just move to the next town. Wait what? You got married? Thats rule number one, you don't get settled down with things like this, You have to be on the move. Sloppy, just sloppy work, and you got a following. This is bad, at least their paying you right? No? You're being kicked out of your house and tarred and feathered. Dude I don't think you know how this works, your supposed to live it large. Just call it quits man. This is not getting any better for you. What you want to keep going, your spending money on temples, dude that wasn't the deal you need your followers to build you a house not some God you just made up. Of course you died. So much for all those lies and deception, you got nothing out of it.

Joseph Smith got nothing out of lying and deceit. No real fame, no real money, He had women, but married so not even living the bachelor Indiana Jones life he wanted.

We can say Joseph lied about the Book of Mormon and that he was a really poor overworked unsuccessful conman. Or we can say that He told the truth, and he was a literal prophet of God. If there is one thing I learned from religion and life experience is that lies snowball into more lies and become uncontrollable that they either get buried by future leaders like they never happened or they turn churches into a whatever people say goes type of church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints to me couldn't have been built on a lie, purely because the way the Church is today couldn't be doing more good for its members, for its community, and for the world in its humanitarian works. It didn't snowball to something entirely different than how it is today, nor did it forsake the teachings of old and that of Jesus Christ. For this reason I believe Joseph Smith told the truth. I believe that He truly died believing that He saw God and Jesus, and I believe there was a reason the Book of Mormon was translated the way it was intended, using all materials given to Joseph by God including the Gold Plates as his story suggests.

As you noted, Joseph supposedly translated ancient gold plates in a writing no one had ever heard of by looking at a rock in a hat. Why is it, you think, that the LDS Church does not depict this in its standard art used for missionary work and Sunday classes?

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

As you noted, Joseph supposedly translated ancient gold plates in a writing no one had ever heard of by looking at a rock in a hat. Why is it, you think, that the LDS Church does not depict this in its standard art used for missionary work and Sunday classes?

Like I said about the European Jesus depicted in art and murals around Europe and America. The God plates existed and contained the record of the Book of Mormon. That is the message in the art not to depict how it was translated. Jesus was likely not blue eyed pale skin and light colored hair as they show in the stained glass windows, but the representation expresses the same idea that He died for the European people just as He did the world.

 

[Neuropteron]

The Spirit of God dispels doubts not me. All I can say is that for me, the existence of the plates is far less important than the content that it contains. Just like the tablets of the Ten Commandments, do I care if I see them with my own eyes or do I care to follow what they are telling the world. Thou shalt not Kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not bear false witness, Cheat steal, honor your Father and Mother, keep the Sabbath Day Holy, Don't Covet, Don't have other gods before the True God. Don't take the Lords Name in vain.

The Book of Mormon teaches a man to do good and follow Christ and that Christ came to more than just the people of Jerusalem. That is the weight of its content among the implication that a restoration has been made. I read the Book of Mormon and found it to be true by the Spirit of God that is in me. For that reason, I don't need to see if with my eyes, in order to know it is real.

Hi,

Thank you for explaining it to me.
Nonetheless I struggle to understand how credence can be applied to the content of a- until proven otherwise- fictional document.
One can agree (or not) that the content of this document is of importance to the Mormon belief, however the question is -as initially asked- who wrote it? and why were the plates hidden?

It seems to me that if a person has valid reason to believe something, he/she should be able to explain the reason for that belief.
Peter made following comment "... alway ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you..."1Pet 3:15)

I remind you that you invited me (and others) to ask you about your belief.
It seems to me that the Golden plates are a fundamental foundation of the Mormon belief structure, not being able to give reasonable explanation for it's alleged existence makes comments about the content and other questions based on it fairly redundant.

Of course, as always I can be wrong, and look forward to future refutation of the reason for my skepticism.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Hi,

Thank you for explaining it to me.
Nonetheless I struggle to understand how credence can be applied to the content of a- until proven otherwise- fictional document.
One can agree (or not) that the content of this document is of importance to the Mormon belief, however the question is -as initially asked- who wrote it? and why were the plates hidden?

It seems to me that if a person has valid reason to believe something, he/she should be able to explain the reason for that belief.
Peter made following comment "... alway ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you..."1Pet 3:15)

I remind you that you invited me (and others) to ask you about your belief.
It seems to me that the Golden plates are a fundamental foundation of the Mormon belief structure, not being able to give reasonable explanation for it's alleged existence makes comments about the content and other questions based on it fairly redundant.

Of course, as always I can be wrong, and look forward to future refutation of the reason for my skepticism.

By that logic: why did Christ acsend? Would have been so much easier to have people believe if He just stuck around.