• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Aslong Interference exist, so too Terrorism. Do you agree, yes or no & why?

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
We talk most of the time about isis, alqeada etc but never the root cause of these groups. That is the interference of muslim affairs by the West.
In my humble opinion if this continues, i think more moderate muslims will be forced to join such groups. These groups believes you cant simply invade Iraq, Afghanistan and throw away the regimes without opening more dangerous doors.
Also people see this as conspiracy. They wonder, why is there no such regime change in North Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, only in muslim world there is clear mendling. So this is real issue and it proofs the prophecies from Hadiths. The hadiths says there will be major and minor battles between muslims and the west(hadith mentions romans, in our time America is the Roman Empire), these battles are called Malhama and it takes place in Khurassan(Afghanistan), Shaam(Syria, Lebanon, Palestine) and Iraq.


Anyways what is your view? Do you think interference made things worse or better?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I'm generally against foreign intervention short of helping refugees and preventing genocides. I think this sentiment is more common amongst my younger generation than it does with the older. So hopefully some of this giant military stuff will finally start to die down as the next generation comes into power.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Western meddling in the Middle East is certainly a cause of terrorism, but how much of a cause? Chinese meddling in Tibet does not seem to cause terrorism. Therefore, I think other causes are at play too, and might even be more significant in some ways than Western meddling.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Wars more than interference play a part in terrorism, but it's only one factor.

Where was the 'interference' in Pakistan? That country created hundreds of thousands of terrorist to use against Hindu India.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
I agree. There are also serious problems with extremism, but those problems are made VERY serious with the intervention we've been seeing. I know no one likes to hear this, but Bin Laden was very clear about his reasons for the 911 attacks, so we need to admit that our policy is at least partially to blame if we are to prevent terrorism in the future.

Palestine needs to take a stand against Israel in a moral and civilized way. But Israel shouldn't be expecting that to happen magically, and if they want to work toward stopping the terrorist attacks they ought to stop taking Palestinian land. In this case a kind of intervention is making the problem of terrorism very serious also.

Someone mentioned Pakistan and India. I wish I knew more about that. Apparently the Muslims in Kashmir feel that they are under attack from Hindu India and they are justifying terrorism with this. There's also the violence that took place between Hindus and Muslims in the formation of India in the... gosh 40's I think?
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I think that you are blaming the West for a regional issue that has been simmering for decades. There has always been a deep rooted animosity between the different religious sects in the world. Look at the different areas. Do you say the West was responsible for the wars between Iraq and Iran, Iraq and Kuwait, the animosity between Saudi Arab and their neighboring countries, Look what was going on internally in Libya prior to the ousting of Gaddafi. Look at the recent waring factions that are now taking place in Libya. What about the internal strife in Afghanistan that had nothing to do with the Soviet or Western intervention. There seems to be a common denominator in many areas of the world and that is the radical Islamic push to bring "their" version of Islam to power. What is the real issue between Pakistan and India? It sure isn't Western meddling in their affairs. In many instances it is the quest for power whether it is based on religion or just a naked quest for power and uses religion as an excuse.
Yes I will admit that the West meddling in internal affairs has resulted in problems but this meddling is not the overlying reason for what is going on in today's world.
 
Last edited:

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Western interference which eliminates a totalitarian leader also eliminates a relatively efficient force containing sectarian and or parochial violence. Absent such containment, Muslim on Muslim terrorism can run amok. That said, no one should lose sight of the fact that …

… while Western interference may thereby enable terrorism in the name of Islam, the despicable backwardness of the Islamist murderers insure it.
The monster responsible for blowing up the men, women, and children in the 'other' mosque is the monster who transports and triggers the explosives.
 
Last edited:

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Stop blaming the West for your problems. Your argument doesn't even make any sense. If Western intervention is the problem, then why don't you attack Western forces only? Sure, take up arms against Western military. Fine. But you know that's not what's going on. Why do the Jihadists murder fellow Muslims as well as Christians, Jews and civilians of other minorities? Why sell women of minority groups into sexual slavery? Why train children as suicide bombers and send them to murder others? Why murder - behead - children? Why do we have Jihadist groups operating all over the globe, in places like Nigeria and Indonesia? What the hell does that have to do with the West? I do believe that invaded and conquered peoples have the right to fight back against invaders and take back their land. But civilized people also agree that there are moral laws when it comes to warfare and one of those is that you do not kill non-combatants, as well as: you do not kill children, you do not commit genocide, you do not enslave people or otherwise persecute others.

This is like black gangbangers in the hood blaming "the man" and "white people" for their problems as they destroy their own neighborhoods and kill their neighbors. Stop passing the blame and accept your own damn responsibility. Grow the hell up.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Stop blaming the West for your problems. Your argument doesn't even make any sense. If Western intervention is the problem, then why don't you attack Western forces only? Sure, take up arms against Western military. Fine. But you know that's not what's going on. Why do the Jihadists murder fellow Muslims as well as Christians, Jews and civilians of other minorities? Why sell women of minority groups into sexual slavery? Why train children as suicide bombers and send them to murder others? Why murder - behead - children? Why do we have Jihadist groups operating all over the globe, in places like Nigeria and Indonesia? What the hell does that have to do with the West? I do believe that invaded and conquered peoples have the right to fight back against invaders and take back their land. But civilized people also agree that there are moral laws when it comes to warfare and one of those is that you do not kill non-combatants, as well as: you do not kill children, you do not commit genocide, you do not enslave people or otherwise persecute others.

This is like black gangbangers in the hood blaming "the man" and "white people" for their problems as they destroy their own neighborhoods and kill their neighbors. Stop passing the blame and accept your own damn responsibility. Grow the hell up.

The problem is really western interference and the fact that they drew border lines separating families and people from same ethnicity through false borders.


So u believe Aghanis(Taliban) and Iraqis have the right to fight back against the Invaders? I agree with you on this one. I have always been in favor of defending yourself against invaders. Glad we agree on something
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
The problem is really western interference and the fact that they drew border lines separating families and people from same ethnicity through false borders.
And what does that have to do with all the horrors described in my first post? "Western interference" makes you murder civilians? "Western interference" makes you sell Yazidi women into sex slavery? "Western interference" makes you kill children? "Western interference" makes you stone people to death? Etc., etc.!
So u believe Aghanis(Taliban) and Iraqis have the right to fight back against the Invaders? I agree with you on this one. I have always been in favor of defending yourself against invaders. Glad we agree on something
They may have that right, but that does not mean that whatever other cause they uphold is just. The Taliban certainly do not have a just cause and deserve to be wiped out for the common good of humanity. Just as it could be said that an invaded people have the right to fight against invasion, it can also be said that humans have the moral duty to free our fellow humans from oppression, using invasion and force if necessary.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Why should it concern you how isis rules the people under them. Thats what i was talking about.
West believes they are the Police of Earth, dictating their laws and morals on others such as Middle Easterns, Communists.
Let Isis and taliban how they want to rule. Besides they are the indigenous people of Afghanistan and Iraq.


The west should not intervene if muslims wants to rule by the revelation, or if they want to install caliphate( i dont view isis as legitimate caliphate...).
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Why should it concern you how isis rules the people under them. Thats what i was talking about.
West believes they are the Police of Earth, dictating their laws and morals on others such as Middle Easterns, Communists.
Let Isis and taliban how they want to rule. Besides they are the indigenous people of Afghanistan and Iraq.


The west should not intervene if muslims wants to rule by the revelation, or if they want to install caliphate( i dont view isis as legitimate caliphate...).

I'm not an isolationist or a relativist. I'm also a Christian and my brothers and sisters in Christ are being persecuted in that part of the world. Christians are part of the one Body of Christ. Doesn't matter what part of the world they're living in. When one part is hurting, we all hurt with it. Besides, the human race is one family and we all have a duty to care for each other. When evils such as Islamic State arise, the civilized world has the moral imperative to rise as one and destroy it, freeing those suffering under it. IS and the Taliban need to be destroyed.
 

bretzter

Member
How is it that you´re of the belief Western intervention,and/or its meddling in Muslim affairs is
the root of terrorism?.
Or do you really mean it´s support of Israel,or its presence in Muslim countries?.
Countries I might add they wouldn´t be in,or wanted to go to in the first place unless they were
actually had no other choice but to go,or were drawn into a conflict.
Take Afghanistan for instance.
I suppose you hold the opinion that 9/11 was an inside job rather than an actual terrorist attack
Perpetrated against the United States itself,which brought about the war in Afghanistan?.
Or us holding captured combatants of that war in an attempt to stop such further attacks from
happening,and their interrogation in Guantanamo?.
Or was it because of our invading Iraq with the sole intention of desposing it of a cruel dictator
that we at one time propped up and threw our support behind?.
And since we actually created him to serve a purpose,is it not our right,and to protect the Iraqi
people,be it the Shiites in the South,or the Kurds in the North?.
And in Iraq I we were invited by the Saudi government personally to not only protect its kingdom,
which includes Islams most revered shrine in Mecca btw,and to liberate a Muslim people and
liberate the country of Kuwait after it was invaded by its neighbor to the North,Iraq?.
Or was it not Christians bombing Christians in Kosovo,who came to the aid of Albanian Muslims
when they were being displaced and facing possible genocide,or being thrown out of Europe?.
And for what thanks did we get for doing it but 9/11.
And as for Israel,do they not have a right to protect itself as a nation,as well as its citizens?.
And it´s not like Israel haswn´t offered the Palestinian people land for peace.
Are not the West Bank,Gaza,the Sinai Peninsula,or its returning southern Lebanon back to the
Lebanese government?.
Please,how much land is considered too much land?.
Truth is,they won´t accept any amount of land Israel is ready and willing to concede.
To them it´s either all of it.or none of it.
And on top of it, that tiny strip of land we like to call Israel is surrounded by enemies on all sides
that want nothing more than its complete and utter destruction.
Accept for maybe those that recognize their right to exist,and signed peace treaties with them after
the 6 day war.
Meaning Egypt to its south,and Jordan to it´s East.
And Syria itself been rather quiet,except for its insistance on the strategic Golan heights..
Only Lebanon and Gaza are constantly giving them fits with the assistance of Iran of course.
So which side is it that is actually trying to get the best of the other?.
This is all nothing more than propaganda approach,and an attempt in drawing attention to itself,and
hoping to influence the opinion/s of international community in an attempt to swing things in their favor.
Which they´ve been really,really been successful at doing over the years.
Be it through direct,or indirect negotiations with the United Nations,the United States,or the European
Union btw.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
We talk most of the time about isis, alqeada etc but never the root cause of these groups. That is the interference of muslim affairs by the West.
I agree.
Also people see this as conspiracy. They wonder, why is there no such regime change in North Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, only in muslim world there is clear mendling.
We tried meddling in Asian affairs, & got our ample behinds handed to us. (My own government almost sent me over there to kill a bunch of little people who never even insulted me.) But we're still there to some extent.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
How is it that you´re of the belief Western intervention,and/or its meddling in Muslim affairs is
the root of terrorism?

I don't think it's the root, but it's a contributing factor. Some good points here. I suppose you could argue that we were trying to do the right thing in Iraq, but in the end we wound up doing a horrible thing.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
Stop blaming the West for your problems. Your argument doesn't even make any sense. If Western intervention is the problem, then why don't you attack Western forces only?

True that what's going on isn't all political. You're right about that religious violence. But there's political violence too. There's a reason Finland, Mexico, Uruguay ect. don't get attacked by there people. ISIS is committing religiously inspired terrorism right now. But 911 was largely politically inspired for instance. It's never just one way or another.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Perhaps Muslim armies should not have interfered with other cultures either. Oddly, that never seems to be an issue. I think the bottom line is that Muslims are sore losers.
 
The hadiths says there will be major and minor battles between muslims and the west(hadith mentions romans, in our time America is the Roman Empire), these battles are called Malhama and it takes place in Khurassan(Afghanistan), Shaam(Syria, Lebanon, Palestine) and Iraq.

The Rum of the Quran and hadiths was what we term the Byzantine Empire. A Greek speaking, Orthodox Christian, multi-cultural Empire centred around Anatolia and mostly holding territory in the Balkans and the Middle East/North Africa and ruled by an Armenian of Parthian descent. How does this become America?

So this is real issue and it proofs the prophecies from Hadiths.

As predictions made in the 7th C, they basically say 'We will fight some battles in the most likely places in the world that these battles would happen'.

In the modern world, the main problem is that the Byzantine empire ended in the 15thC, so that seems to falsify the prophecies. Because Muslims don't want to admit this, they have to try to invent a new Rum. Depending on who you ask this is America, the West, Europe, Italy, Christians, Orthodox Christians, Copts, Russia, white people or Turkey. The technical name for this is 'clutching at straws'.

If this was divine revelation, it would be pretty easy to say something like 'a new power from far, far away' rather than using a term that meant the byzantine Empire

We talk most of the time about isis, alqeada etc but never the root cause of these groups. That is the interference of muslim affairs by the West.
In my humble opinion if this continues, i think more moderate muslims will be forced to join such groups. These groups believes you cant simply invade Iraq, Afghanistan and throw away the regimes without opening more dangerous doors.
Also people see this as conspiracy. They wonder, why is there no such regime change in North Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, only in muslim world there is clear mendling. So this is real issue and it proofs the prophecies from Hadiths.


Anyways what is your view? Do you think interference made things worse or better?

As regards the 'root cause' of these groups, there are many. Al-Qaeda for example grew out of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (maybe Rum again), and the Saudi decision to invite American soldiers to make bases there in the period of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

You also have to take into account the Wahabbi ideology that has been well funded by the Gulf states, the development of new hybrid ideologies by people like Sayyid Qutb which fused Islamism with Western totalitarian ideologies, the failure of the Arab nationalist movements, the failure of the Arab region to adapt to global changes and provide opportunities for their people, etc.

Regardless of whether or not Western intervention 'caused' such groups, I think that it is undeniable that it has been the most successful tool in popularising these groups. Jihadis themselves always give this as a primary causes for joining and motivating their behaviour. So the West has helped to create the conditions in which these groups are able to attract large numbers of recruits.

This is the strategy that these groups themselves follow. They desire to draw Western forces into a direct conflict, and the West has done everything that these groups most desired.

In their words:

"Almost everything [Shaykh `Abd Allāh `Azzām] said happened, as if it were a cinematic film. From this we know that understanding the abilities of the enemy and the time of his defeat only comes to us by plunging into active war with him, regardless of whether we have a rational mind or theoretical research (at hand)...

The first goal: Destroy a large part of the respect for America and spread confidence in the souls of Muslims by means of:
(1) Reveal the deceptive media to be a power without force.

(2) Force America to abandon its war against Islam by proxy and force it to attack directly so that the noble ones among the masses and a few of the noble ones among the armies of apostasy will see that their fear of deposing the regimes because America is their protector is misplaced and that when they depose the regimes, they are capable of opposing America if it interferes.

B – The second goal: Replace the human casualties sustained by the renewal movement during the past thirty years by means of the human aid that will probably come for two reasons:
(1) Being dazzled by the operations which will be undertaken in opposition to America.

(2) Anger over the obvious, direct American interference in the Islamic world, such that that anger compounds the previous anger against America's support for the Zionist entity. It also transforms the suppressed anger toward the regimes of apostasy and tyranny into a positive anger. Human aid for the renewal movement will not dry up, especially when heedless people among the masses – and they are the majority – discover the truth of the collaboration of these regimes with the enemies of the Umma to such an extent that no deceptive veil will be of use and no pretext will remain for any claimant to the Islam of these regimes and their like.

(C) – The third goal: Work to expose the weakness of America’s centralized power by pushing it to abandon the media psychological war and the war by proxy until it fights directly. As a result, the apostates among all of the sects and groups and even Americans themselves will see that the remoteness of the primary center from the peripheries is a major factor contributing to the possible outbreak of chaos and savagery....

This was the policy of battle for the pioneers: to transform societies into two opposing groups, igniting a violent battle between them whose end is either victory or martyrdom, whose emblem is either glorious war or humiliating peace. One of the two opposing groups is in Paradise and the other is in Hell: "

[Quotes taken from various pages of 'The Management of Savagery']

http://www.physics.wisc.edu/undergr...eference_chapter07/Management_of_Savagery.pdf



 
Last edited:

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
ISIS has every intention of meddling in other nations' affairs...

And on some level, interfering in other nations' affairs is inevitable. Good or bad, it's simply the case that national borders are not impassable walls, people are constantly coming and going, and bringing their business with them. It is the nature of globalization that we are inextricably tied to one another, if that wasn't always true. An oil well can't get blown up in Iraq without it affecting the entire economy and everyone's livelihood. A brutal dictator in Syria means a diaspora of refugee millions in another. While I think some of "The West"s actions are condemnatory (and no we are not all one body; many of us are in fact Muslims ourselves) if you're saying that we should all be following some Prime Directive-like policy of global isolationism, I don't that is possible, or a good idea anyway.
 
Top