Atheism and bereavement

[footprints]

That's so adorably sad. It's like someone with Down's Syndrome pitying a physics professor because he thinks the professor doesn't understand that rainbows are made of candy.

What a very warped association.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't think it has anything to do with fear of having their belief in an afterlife taken away. I think it's because they think you'd have to be a terrible person not to believe in God. They think atheists are some kind of monster, like gay people, Communists, child molesters and cannibals.

I think that your perspective stereotypes people too much. It's not that there aren't a lot of superficial, intolerant people out there. It is common for people on both sides of the debate to see the other side as unreasonable. But there is more to the atheism/theism debate than just logic. There is the matter of emotional cost to the individual. Religious belief comes with a lot of cost. It places a burden on the individual's time and personal wealth. People of faith know that they don't have a great deal of physical or external evidence to support their belief, and they will go to great lengths to rationalize it. Maintaining religious faith can even come at the cost of great personal sacrifice. Atheists avoid those kinds of costs.

But atheism usually comes with its own costs, and those costs certainly make it difficult for people to entertain it seriously. One of the costs is giving up on the likelihood of personal immortality, and I used to think that that was among the most important mental roadblocks for believers. Now that I am at an age where I and many people I know have lost loved ones, and I have come to appreciate how important it is to them that they maintain some kind of mental contact with those who have died. It is not just personal immortality that is so deeply important to people.

 

[Smoke]

I think that your perspective stereotypes people too much.

No more than yours does; it's just a different stereotype. And while I've had believers tell me to my face that atheists are horrible people who deserve to go to hell -- and most assuredly will -- I've never had any of them complain about the issue you raise.

It's my dad's Christianity that makes him think he may not see his parents in heaven, because he's not at all sure that God will forgive them for being the wrong kinds of Christians -- Grandpa was a Catholic and none too pious, and Grandma was way too liberal. And it's my parents' Christianity that makes them sure they won't see me in heaven, too. God can never forgive anybody for being gay, because he's "just" -- and damnation is just what gay people deserve.

My stereotypes -- and I admit that's what they are -- have a very real and present basis in my real-life experiences of Christians.

 

[Copernicus]

No more than yours does; it's just a different stereotype. And while I've had believers tell me to my face that atheists are horrible people who deserve to go to hell -- and most assuredly will -- I've never had any of them complain about the issue you raise.

I did not intend to stereotype theists with my comments in the OP. It is a natural tendency for everyone to miss loved ones who die. I was just pointing out that belief in life after death helps people to maintain a feeling of connection with the departed and perhaps even the hope of meeting them again. Atheism intensifies bereavement from that perspective. I am proposing that it is a fundamental part of the overreaction to atheism that we see as a general phenomenon (albeit not necessarily in your neck of the woods). I don't expect people of faith to bring this subject up in arguments with theists, although they will (as the Pope has) argue against atheism on the grounds that robs people of their hope.

It's my dad's Christianity that makes him think he may not see his parents in heaven, because he's not at all sure that God will forgive them for being the wrong kinds of Christians -- Grandpa was a Catholic and none too pious, and Grandma was way too liberal. And it's my parents' Christianity that makes them sure they won't see me in heaven, too. God can never forgive anybody for being gay, because he's "just" -- and damnation is just what gay people deserve.

OK, but now you're looking at this from your very personal perspective, and I was just looking at the general phenomenon. I suspect your parents expect to see themselves in heaven, but it is quite possible that their belief in the afterlife aggravates their relationship with you. It is not just atheism that keeps you out of heaven in their minds.

My stereotypes -- and I admit that's what they are -- have a very real and present basis in my real-life experiences of Christians.

Mine, as well, but I try not to think of all Christians and members of other religions as a homogeneous group. That is, I try to avoid sweeping generalizations, although we all succumb to them from time to time.

 

[Man of Faith]

Atheists are welcome in my church, and my home anytime. I would hug them, cry with them, rejoice with them, be friends with them, just like anyone. I admit I don't meet many because I live in the southeast where it is uncommon to meet an atheist. I meet more people that are non-religions but believe in God or something higher than ourselves than I do a true blue full blown atheist. Nobody knows what happens to us when we die, so atheists need to let religion be and stop trying to kill it.

With all the attacks on religion, Christmas, Easter, Jesus, God, local communites by the ACLU, do we have to ask why atheists are frowned upon by some?

 

[footprints]

Atheists are welcome in my church, and my home anytime. I would hug them, cry with them, rejoice with them, be friends with them, just like anyone. I admit I don't meet many because I live in the southeast where it is uncommon to meet an atheist. I meet more people that are non-religions but believe in God or something higher than ourselves than I do a true blue full blown atheist. Nobody knows what happens to us when we die, so atheists need to let religion be and stop trying to kill it.

With all the attacks on religion, Christmas, Easter, Jesus, God, local communites by the ACLU, do we have to ask why atheists are frowned upon by some?

This is what I have found by the majority of religions and religious people, they open their arms and their hearts.

The other fact I have found about atheists is they do not tell children of people who have passed on, oh look your mum or dad are now fodder for worms and magots.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

With all the attacks on religion, Christmas, Easter, Jesus, God, local communites by the ACLU, do we have to ask why atheists are frowned upon by some?

I have never once seen an attack on any of those things by the ACLU. I've seen the ACLU attack breaches of the constitution, but that's definitely not the same thing.

But just to turn around what you're saying:

Nobody knows what happens to us when we die, so atheists need to let religion be and stop trying to kill it.

With all the attacks on the US constitution, other laws and civil rights by theists, do we have to ask why religion is frowned upon by some?

 

[footprints]

With all the attacks on the US constitution, other laws and civil rights by theists, do we have to ask why religion is frowned upon by some?

I swear there are more interpretations of the US constitution, than there is of the Bible.

 

[Copernicus]

Atheists are welcome in my church, and my home anytime. I would hug them, cry with them, rejoice with them, be friends with them, just like anyone. I admit I don't meet many because I live in the southeast where it is uncommon to meet an atheist. I meet more people that are non-religions but believe in God or something higher than ourselves than I do a true blue full blown atheist...

In fact, you may know more atheists than you think. They don't always wear their rejection of religious belief on their sleeves.

...Nobody knows what happens to us when we die, so atheists need to let religion be and stop trying to kill it.

I think that we do know quite a bit about what happens to us when we die, but that really has nothing to do with atheism. Most people are mind-body dualists on an intuitive level. What most religions preach is that the mind (or a vaguely-defined "soul") continues to exist after the body dies. This is highly unlikely, given the dependency of living minds on living brains for their states of consciousness. Not all atheists reject the idea of life after death, but I think that most of us are reconciled to the unlikelihood of that.

With all the attacks on religion, Christmas, Easter, Jesus, God, local communites by the ACLU, do we have to ask why atheists are frowned upon by some?

I have reread that sentence several times and not been able to figure out just what you were trying to say--something about attacks on religion by the ACLU. I was not aware that the ACLU had ever attacked religion. Are you conflating ACLU defenses of First Amendment rights with the so-called "new atheists" such as Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, et al.? In any case, the "pariah" status of atheists goes back to ancient times, and it still exists today in the form of blasphemy and anti-atheist laws in many countries, including the US. (It is still illegal--on paper--for atheists to hold public office in some localities in the US.) So, yes, we really do have to ask.

 

[Smoke]

With all the attacks on religion, Christmas, Easter, Jesus, God, local communites by the ACLU, do we have to ask why atheists are frowned upon by some?

Oh, that reminds me. I'm getting up a group to attack the local community next weekend. PM me if interested.

 

[ChrisP]

I don't know. Where I live, they are not.

Atheists are not really pariahs here, but the younger ones of my generation do complain a lot. If you've got a better idea you'll get much further if you complain and whinge less, set aside your differences of opinion, get off your tush and actually do something about what's bothering you. Throughout history there have been some times of great change, but these are almost always brought about by force of hand, not of will. If you wish to change things without bloodshed it will happen over time, little by little. This may be an age and wisdom thing as more atheists over 45 than under that I've met seem to have a clue and are generally benevolent.

Whenever I get ticked off at the self centred dumbarsery that seems to abound in contemporary western culture the following poem from the Tao te Ching helps.

The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.

In dwelling, live close to the ground.
In thinking, keep to the simple.
In conflict, be fair and generous.
In governing, don't try to control.
In work, do what you enjoy.
In family life, be completely present.

When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you.

 

[logician]

There is a definite need by many to believe there is some kind of afterlife, even if wht they believe really doesn't make any sense. It really is a case of tradition being passed on from generation to generation. Breaking tradition by becoming an atheist is very hard to do in reality, because usually you are going against family tradition and beliefs and in some sense become an outcast.

 

[footprints]

There is a definite need by many to believe there is some kind of afterlife, even if wht they believe really doesn't make any sense. It really is a case of tradition being passed on from generation to generation. Breaking tradition by becoming an atheist is very hard to do in reality, because usually you are going against family tradition and beliefs and in some sense become an outcast.

A person only ever becomes an outcast in a family devoid of love, or diminished to the full extent of love to begin with. A person who outcasts their family is similarly devoid or diminished in the capacity of love.

The majority of traditional values handed down from generation to generation is based on the reality of a real or perceived real event.

 

[Copernicus]

A person only ever becomes an outcast in a family devoid of love, or diminished to the full extent of love to begin with. A person who outcasts their family is similarly devoid or diminished in the capacity of love.

That's a sweeping generalization. I would suggest that you read Mark Twain's classic short story, The Man Who Corrupted Hadleyburg. Twain's point was not just that Christians can be pompous hypocrites. It was also that circumstances can bring out the worst in people. You can never say that people are incorruptible, only that they haven't yet faced a temptation too powerful to resist.

 

[footprints]

That's a sweeping generalization. I would suggest that you read Mark Twain's classic short story, The Man Who Corrupted Hadleyburg. Twain's point was not just that Christians can be pompous hypocrites. It was also that circumstances can bring out the worst in people. You can never say that people are incorruptible, only that they haven't yet faced a temptation too powerful to resist.

Copernicus, I would suggest you understand Twains stories were fictitious and pertain to a particular perception even if they were based on real events. Nothing to do with fact albeit down a perceptional path of life experience may align with a similar or perceived life experience. In reality situations can go many ways other than how Twain portrayed them. In reality there are two or more sides to every story, not just the perception as told from by Twain. In reality it is not only some Christians who can be pompous hypocrites, that some Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists et all fit the same bill.

 

[Smoke]

 

[Copernicus]

Copernicus, I would suggest you understand Twains stories were fictitious and pertain to a particular perception even if they were based on real events. Nothing to do with fact albeit down a perceptional path of life experience may align with a similar life experience. In reality situations can go many ways other than how Twain portrayed them. In reality there are two or more sides to every story, not just the perception as told from by Twain. In reality it is not only some Christians who can be pompous hypocrites, that some Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists et all fit the same bill.

You made a very sweeping generalization about the families that break apart under pressure. Unless you have lived under the same circumstances, it is hypocritical to assume that such people are inherently flawed. I have always thought that Twain did a particularly good job of making that point in his moral parable. I certainly wasn't trying to claim that it was anything other than fiction, as all parables are.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What a very warped association.

Yet, interestingly, no less apt.